Another Prime released with still no changes validating the alleged "less grindy" aspect of the Relic System.

[DrBorris]

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

-snip-

Okay *cracks fingers* let's do some real math.

 

First of all is that the head games you keep going on about is 100% your opinion. You can't measure outside maybe a poll, and those never go well on these Forums, so let's just stick with this math that you keep making sound so bad. Hard math, not experiences.

 

1. Let's do the easy part first, find the time it takes for the most average player to get a dreaded rotation C drop from keys.
   • Let's just go with a 5% drop rate, this is not the worst offender as I remember a 2% at one point, but 5% was more traditional for the extra rare stuff.
   • The average player (50%, center, whatever you want to call it) will finally get the want prime part after 13.5¹ rotations.
   • Thus, it would take the average player 270 min or 4.5 hours to get the part they want.
2. Now for another easy one, time to get 100 traces.
   • Traces drop between 6 and 30, so let's be average at 18.
   • This would mean an average player would need to do a 30 min relic survival for 100 traces².
3. Now that we have our 100 traces, how many relics does it take to get a rare prime part from a relic.
   • This one is pretty standard, 50% of people should get the rare part they want in 6.58³ relics (solo).
   • This would mean that most are getting the part they want within two relic runs.
4. And now for the really questionable stuff, gaining the relics themselves.
   • We're going to have two examples here, Neo B1 and Axi B1 from Xini.
   • Neo has a certain drop chance from rotation A and the Axi has another drop chance from rotation B and C (want to avoid specifics as these numbers do come from data mining).
   • Neo B1 will drop on average in 3.635⁴ full rotations (4 rounds) and Axi B1 will drop on average in 2.09⁵ rotations.
   • A standard 4 rounds of interception will take, with some fluff added in, 15 min.
   • So, a Neo B1 will theoretically take an hour⁶ and a Axi B1 should take a half hour⁷.
5. Putting it all together.
   • To get a rare part from a B1 relic when farming Xini it takes the average person 2.5⁸ hours.
   • And a rare from an Axi B1 takes an hour⁹ (plus the relic run mission, but that is easily 5 min or shorter)

 

So... wow, that is A LOT better than even I thought it was. 4.5 hours versus 2.5 hours is pretty darn good. And sure, Xini is the best place to farm, but even a 100% margin would leave other nodes within spitting distance of Keys.

 

Math in the spoilers, lots of math.

Spoiler

1: (1-.05)^n=.5, n=13.5 rotation Cs

2: (10/18)*5 min = 27.7 min, round up to 30.

3: (1-.1)^n=.5, n=6.58 relics

4: (1-.0909)^n=.5, n= 7.27, 7.27/2=3.635 (because two rotation A's)

5: ((1-.1667)(1-13.92))^n=.5, n=2.09

6: 3.635*15 min = 54.525 min

7: 2.09*15 min = 31.35 min

8: (1 hour)*(2 runs)+(30 min) = 2.5 hours

9: (30 min)*(2 runs)+(30 min) = 1 hour.

 

But of course this is just the half way mark, some people will take longer and some will take shorter. Just imagine a standard bell curve in your head to get an idea.

 

And, as I said earlier, having steps of progression between point A and B makes me (can't speak for you) feel better because I see more progress being made than just a yes/no ever 20 min. Because there are more things that each individually have a higher chance to succeed, I feel like I am doing better. Rather than seeing "fail" or "succeed" I get to take steps towards that success or failure more often.  For you it would seem don't like this as taking multiple steps and watching them be deemed useless is more impactful than one step, but i personally like the carrot being closer to my face.

Edited March 2, 2017 by DrBorris

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

 

1. Let's do the easy part first, find the time it takes for the most average player to get a dreaded rotation C drop from keys.
   • Let's just go with a 5% drop rate, this is not the worst offender as I remember a 2% at one point, but 5% was more traditional for the extra rare stuff.
   • The average player (50%, center, whatever you want to call it) will finally get the want prime part after 13.5¹ rotations.
   • Thus, it would take the average player 270 min or 4.5 hours to get the part they want.
2. Now for another easy one, time to get 100 traces.
   • Traces drop between 6 and 30, so let's be average at 18.
   • This would mean an average player would need to do a 30 min relic survival for 100 traces².
3. Now that we have our 100 traces, how many relics does it take to get a rare prime part from a relic.
   • This one is pretty standard, 50% of people should get the rare part they want in 6.58³ relics (solo).
   • This would mean that most are getting the part they want within two relic runs.
4. And now for the really questionable stuff, gaining the relics themselves.
   • We're going to have two examples here, Neo B1 and Axi B1 from Xini.
   • Neo has a certain drop chance from rotation A and the Axi has another drop chance from rotation B and C (want to avoid specifics as these numbers do come from data mining).
   • Neo B1 will drop on average in 3.635⁴ full rotations (4 rounds) and Axi B1 will drop on average in 2.09⁵ rotations.
   • A standard 4 rounds of interception will take, with some fluff added in, 15 min.
   • So, a Neo B1 will theoretically take an hour⁶ and a Axi B1 should take a half hour⁷.
5. Putting it all together.
   • To get a rare part from a B1 relic when farming Xini it takes the average person 2.5⁸ hours.
   • And a rare from an Axi B1 takes an hour⁹ (plus the relic run mission, but that is easily 5 min or shorter)

 

 

So... wow, that is A LOT better than even I thought it was. 4.5 hours versus 2.5 hours is pretty darn good. And sure, Xini is the best place to farm, but even a 100% margin would leave other nodes within spitting distance of Keys.

 

Math in the spoilers, lots of math.

  Hide contents

1: (1-.05)^n=.5, n=13.5 rotation Cs

2: (10/18)*5 min = 27.7 min, round up to 30.

3: (1-.1)^n=.5, n=6.58 relics

4: (1-.0909)^n=.5, n= 7.27, 7.27/2=3.635 (because two rotation A's)

5: ((1-.1667)(1-13.92))^n=.5, n=2.09

6: 3.635*15 min = 54.525 min

7: 2.09*15 min = 31.35 min

8: (1 hour)*(2 runs)+(30 min) = 2.5 hours

9: (30 min)*(2 runs)+(30 min) = 1 hour.

 

But of course this is just the half way mark, some people will take longer and some will take shorter. Just imagine a standard bell curve in your head to get an idea.

1. Accurate for the 50% peak.
2. Assumes even distribution of traces. Assumes accessibility of 5-minute duration missions at time of farming (stockpiling when available helps, though).
3. Theoretically. If the RNG is not a complete and utter troll or anything but a straightforward, genuine chance.
4. I forget other relics even exist when farming the rare new-hotness because there's always a stack in pocket by the time you're done grinding out the Axi.
5. That's wishful thinking. I guess I just have terrible luck every time a new relic shows up(!)
6. Maybe.
7. No.
8. logic is lost
9. logic is lost

 

But let's assume you're accurate. _{I wish Axi B1 dropped every other run.}

You're suggesting some 13% drop rate of an Axi B1 relic if my eyes are reading that right. As previously identified, it must be over 5.8% to defeat Void odds mathematically (for a radshare), so sure it works out as a better average, if that's the case.

Of course, no matter which method you're going for, consistent bad luck prolongs it into oblivion. Such is the nature of cumulative probability. But you can still measure the impact by the prepwork needed to get your shot.

Looking at the perfect case, the absolute minimum is 20 minutes for Void and some 30 for a relic (three 30-trace runs, one run of Interception, one fissure). _{void is better whoa-mah-gawd.. nah}

But dropping below consistent perfection, you start adding more time to the whole Relic process as well as multiplying the number of times performed, while a Void run was consistent.

And that's how we end up with situations where someone can have anything up to eight hours between Relic rolls, and needing to run them seven times. I'm not even going to get into the blind fury that comes with having a streak of 20 radshares with no rare drop whatsoever _{0.0218% chance, yay. At least that wasn't on bad relics.}

 

The price of failure even by your own workings and averages is 20 minutes for a Void as usual, and somewhere in the region of an hour and a half for a relic. So you're looking at four times the burden when luck isn't going your way. There are three points of failure where that luck can start going badly, the worst being on a relic run itself where you have to run the gauntlet of the previous RNG points again to get back to where you were.

 

So because my bad luck is apparently ludicrous, it's taking 6 times as long per run as well as being below the curve on number of runs needed. And I'm getting nothing in the meantime. There are no other rare items of interest a player can get while running a specific relic.

The fortunate are enjoying relics. The unfortunate get a horrendously dull grindwall, waiting on a single unpleasant tile for chances at chances, that does everything it can to burn them out on the game, with no realistic way to avoid paying the debt of their bad luck ('mooching' relics they can't get so that later they might repay the favour with ones they do).

 

Someone needs to dismantle the echo chamber and remind DE that the entire swath of players not in the first half of that Bell curve are going to feel a lot more sick of the game than the Void ever caused. Interception is an unengaging mode and for a solo player, a massive pain in the posterior when points are distanced like Xini. Personally, still more tolerable than Excavation.

If they refuse to go back to other valid ideas they had, like Eximus units dropping relics (hey, maybe I could get the Axi relic of the month while doing something besides actively looking for it to the exclusion of all else) then they simply must look at the system as it stands and find some way to avoid a 'rich get richer, poor get poorer' (replace wealth with luck) situation.

As I've said before, if the playerbase's solution to get relics is not acquiring them from the missions in which they drop, using Syndicate mark stockpiling instead, then there's clearly a problem with the intended acquisition method.

 

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

And, as I said earlier, having steps of progression between point A and B makes me (can't speak for you) feel better because I see more progress being made than just a yes/no ever 20 min. Because there are more things that each individually have a higher chance to succeed, I feel like I am doing better. Rather than seeing "fail" or "succeed" I get to take steps towards that success or failure more often.  For you it would seem don't like this as taking multiple steps and watching them be deemed useless is more impactful than one step, but i personally like the carrot being closer to my face.

Rather than seeing "fail" or "succeed" when hunting relics with terrible drop odds, you see "fail" or "fail or succeed".

Carrot's closer to your face when you know that it's unquestionably there. Relics are like seeing a hint of orange through a hole in the box dangling in front of you. It still might not be a carrot in the end.

Edited March 2, 2017 by EDYinnit

[Voltage]

If you are smart, you can prefarm and never need to touch Hieracon Hydron or other relic farms using syndicates. I got Banshee Euphona and Helios in less than 8 hours. Some of that was good RNG, but this is DEFINITELY less grind than T3S RC.

Edited March 2, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I got everything in two days, playing different types of missions, relaxed. Better than rotation C over and over and over.

Want to know my secret? I farm synd medallions ALWAYS upfront. 

You dont have to do it everyday, or play missions you dont like BUT syndicate missions are EASY! You farm rep, resources, can level weapons, test loadouts etc... 

I did this for the last two PAs and it worked like a charm. 

What is the big difference? I prepare 90 days so I dont have to complain 5 days after a PA is launched.

 

[Slaviar]

Unless I missed it somewhere in this thread, you ignored one important thing- all these keys of yours didn't magically appear in your inventory. You spent hours upon hours grinding for them. If you were new player or new mission type was added you'd have to grind them just like relics. I would expect it to be even more grindy than relic farms, considering how low drop % on keys were.

To me, it seems most people opposing relics miss they massive stockpiles of keys. I can understand that. If you had, say, 50+ T3Surv keys no new Prime would be overly scary for you as long as you could stomach hours of Void. But it doesn't change the fact there is still possible to prefarm relics by stockpiling medallions. To some extent I agree it's band aid to limited relic drops but I see it as issue separate from relic system itself.

I think it's debatable if relic system lowered grind. But it objectively made farming easier. Prime parts on day 1 costing less than they used to prove that. But even if we disregard it, it's safe to say it was made much more bearable. It's cool some people enjoyed running same endless for three or more rotations but I didn't.

Before I had to do some runs to get key(not everyone had massive stockpiles of DE's beloved T3Surv keys), then I was forced to run mission in a tile I was sick of, against faction I hate in game modes I was sick of. All that for 5% chance every four rotations. Sorry but I'll pass. Relics have low % to drop but there are multiple spots to farm them, against multiple factions and rotations which award relics usually drop relics.

There is one more thing- I don't remember last time DE decreased rarity of something in old void. But now every Prime Access you have older Primes placed into new relics. Meaning if you really don't want to rush you don't have to; this part will sooner or later be available from more relics, meaning easier acquisition. But if something had 5% drop in T3D it would likely stay at the same rotation with same drop % for ages.

[xS0nico]

7 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

 

There is one more thing- I don't remember last time DE decreased rarity of something in old void. But now every Prime Access you have older Primes placed into new relics. Meaning if you really don't want to rush you don't have to; this part will sooner or later be available from more relics, meaning easier acquisition. But if something had 5% drop in T3D it would likely stay at the same rotation with same drop % for ages.

Pretty much this.

Also..repeat: 25 keys for a fragon Prime BP, 10 Keys E.A. for any Nikana Parts and no result. I was forced to buy it.

New System: In 2 days from Nekros release, already have Galatine\Tigris. And now with Banshee, i almost have all the pieces in within one day  (Yes, the rare parts.) + Euphona, and all thanks to Syndicates relics and collaboration. Seriously, those two "factors" are AMAZING for this.

Edited March 2, 2017 by xS0nico

[Teshin_Dax]

Wtf... 

get the relic and upgrade it to radiant ...  
Then create a keyshare-group..

Its VERY easy! I managed to get all the stuff.. EVERY part and bp on the 1st day

 

+++ many copies of the parts..  yeah .. all parts and plat from sales

EDIT: i still like the old system with being forced to grind in the void alot more

Edited March 2, 2017 by Teshin_Dax

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

 

 

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

As I've said before, if the playerbase's solution to get relics is not acquiring them from the missions in which they drop, using Syndicate mark stockpiling instead, then there's clearly a problem with the intended acquisition method.

I could do the same, I could get the parts in one relic apiece over a couple hours myself, and I'd still be able to post about the inherent flaws in the system.

 

9 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Unless I missed it somewhere in this thread, you ignored one important thing- all these keys of yours didn't magically appear in your inventory. You spent hours upon hours grinding for them. If you were new player or new mission type was added you'd have to grind them just like relics. I would expect it to be even more grindy than relic farms, considering how low drop % on keys were.

To me, it seems most people opposing relics miss they massive stockpiles of keys. I can understand that. If you had, say, 50+ T3Surv keys no new Prime would be overly scary for you as long as you could stomach hours of Void. But it doesn't change the fact there is still possible to prefarm relics by stockpiling medallions. To some extent I agree it's band aid to limited relic drops but I see it as issue separate from relic system itself.

I think it's debatable if relic system lowered grind. But it objectively made farming easier. Prime parts on day 1 costing less than they used to prove that. But even if we disregard it, it's safe to say it was made much more bearable. It's cool some people enjoyed running same endless for three or more rotations but I didn't.

Before I had to do some runs to get key(not everyone had massive stockpiles of DE's beloved T3Surv keys), then I was forced to run mission in a tile I was sick of, against faction I hate in game modes I was sick of. All that for 5% chance every four rotations. Sorry but I'll pass. Relics have low % to drop but there are multiple spots to farm them, against multiple factions and rotations which award relics usually drop relics.

There is one more thing- I don't remember last time DE decreased rarity of something in old void. But now every Prime Access you have older Primes placed into new relics. Meaning if you really don't want to rush you don't have to; this part will sooner or later be available from more relics, meaning easier acquisition. But if something had 5% drop in T3D it would likely stay at the same rotation with same drop % for ages.

Lack of necessity of having your own key aside, yes, you had to get keys. But you didn't have to do it all in one focused grind at the point of release. You'd accumulate keys eventually, and they'd eventually become useful. No key was a 0% chance of ever having something you want, Relics have up to 100% chance of not having something you want.

Citing trade prices, a purely subjective and human element, as proof of objective ease is laughable.

 

Sure I had a lot of keys. Sure I have a lot of the relics those keys became. What are they to me now, but ducats? I spent time acquiring them all somehow and they're next to useless. Same with the majority of relics I get. All time spent grinding after the release of a new relic, most of it turning out to be tantamount wasted.

It's the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. You can't stockpile relics (syndicates aside), you need new ones. You can't share relics at full opportunity (to even out the personal RNG), you need your own. Your old relics become unlikely to impossible to actually run at their full drop. It can take so much time to prepare for a run of relics (mainly acquisition), that falling below the average can easily result in more time spent in unrewarding, unengaging tedium than before. Much more.

 

Could you imagine running Void Survival or Defense for hours in search of that rare drop, then you finally see it at the side of the screen, but once you extract you found out that (at a two in three chance) it was a 'damaged' variant that was useless for crafting, making it essentially just credits or ducats? That's what Relics are like when you're having a hard time getting a particular one to drop. You start dreading the short fissure run because you know what those two in three odds threaten

Just now, Teshin_Dax said:

Wtf... 

get the relic and upgrade it to radiant ...  
Then create a keyshare-group..

Its VERY easy! I managed to get all the stuff.. EVERY part and bp on the 1st day

Good for you, you're in the upper luck echelons.

"Get the relic" you say, as if it was a complete nonissue in the grand scheme...

[OmniXVII]

22 hours ago, drakegt said:

Okay, solution time. How would the current system be improved?

My Suggestions:

1. Let Relics be decomposed into void traces so that relics can more readily be made radiant.
2. Divide the relic drops into specific tiles/missions so that there are less relics on rotation C drop tables.
3. Allow players to spend extra void traces to get more than 1 drop on a relic mission. (i.e. choose X items instead of 1)
4. Increase the void trace drop based on relic level. 

Any thoughts on these? We all agree that the system is grindy, but we're caught up in whether or not it was more or less grindy than the previous system. Why not try to make the current system even better?

Get rid of reactant entirely or reduce the amount required to open a relic. Or make it affected by vacuum. I hate playing the reactant fetch quest minigame, especially on endless missions. Then you freak out when you only have 30 seconds left and can't find the last reactants needed. Seriously.

[Troll_Logic]

On 3/1/2017 at 1:19 PM, EDYinnit said:

A chance of getting what you want every 20 minutes is always going to feel better, even with low odds, than having to spend hours actively grinding to get a chance at what you want, even with good odds.

Not sure it's as bad as you say it is.

I decided yesterday to acquire all of the new stuff and I had it in under 20 minutes.

[Slaviar]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Lack of necessity of having your own key aside, yes, you had to get keys. But you didn't have to do it all in one focused grind at the point of release. You'd accumulate keys eventually, and they'd eventually become useful. No key was a 0% chance of ever having something you want, Relics have up to 100% chance of not having something you want.

And how many of your keys were actually useful? Cause only one which were always needed were T3&4 D/Surv/Sab/Int. All other keys were there mainly to dilute drops, devs rarely added something to lower tier mission, and if they did it was one part.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Citing trade prices, a purely subjective and human element, as proof of objective ease is laughable.

It is not? In Warframe the harder to get something is, the higher the price is. How many people you see using swords? And yet Vengeful Revenant is expensive. Why? Because it's hard to get.
Rare Prime parts were more expensive. Their prices dropped. It means they became easier to get because you'll never convince me people suddenly stopped being interested in new shiny Primes.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Sure I had a lot of keys. Sure I have a lot of the relics those keys became. What are they to me now, but ducats? I spent time acquiring them all somehow and they're next to useless. Same with the majority of relics I get. All time spent grinding after the release of a new relic, most of it turning out to be tantamount wasted.

True, relics lose much of their value as time passes. But they never become useless. You can farm them to gather ducats, then buy weapons and mods from Baro to max them and sell them.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

It's the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. You can't stockpile relics (syndicates aside), you need new ones. You can't share relics at full opportunity (to even out the personal RNG), you need your own. Your old relics become unlikely to impossible to actually run at their full drop. It can take so much time to prepare for a run of relics (mainly acquisition), that falling below the average can easily result in more time spent in unrewarding, unengaging tedium than before. Much more.

 

Could you imagine running Void Survival or Defense for hours in search of that rare drop, then you finally see it at the side of the screen, but once you extract you found out that (at a two in three chance) it was a 'damaged' variant that was useless for crafting, making it essentially just credits or ducats? That's what Relics are like when you're having a hard time getting a particular one to drop. You start dreading the short fissure run because you know what those two in three odds threaten

Nope?

It usually took me just as much time, if not more, to get key as it takes to farm new relic. Then I did survival for an hour to get forma or Lex BP on all three rotations. With relic I go for rad share. Ten minutes at most and four shots at rotation C. Bam, I just did 80 mins survival. I leave with only one item? So what? Overwhelming majority of runs in old void resulted in almost exclusively ducat fodder. Or worse because cells, forma at C and cores were a thing.

Like it or not, amount of rewarding runs increased. You have much higher chance to get your drop from relics than keys. You spent 8h farming one relic? I can bet just as many people will tell you about dozen of long survivals without drop they wanted. RNG is RNG.

[Clownee]

3 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

It usually took me just as much time, if not more, to get key as it takes to farm new relic.

Sorry mate, but you're full of it, fact. T4 keys dropped like rain in Bolivia. The point is none of the systems we have or have had are perfect. Change is needed, if not adjusting drop rates then overhauling the system all-togeather.

 

8 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Not sure it's as bad as you say it is.

I decided yesterday to acquire all of the new stuff and I had it in under 20 minutes.

Bully for you kid, however we don't all live in the land of rainbows and unicorns, some of us have jobs and kids etc, Somtimes it's just not feasible for everyone to farm for hours a day, the current system AND the old one both alienate these people. 

 The ammount of time it took person A to get the frame means nothing I think the issue is (even if it IS an isolated case) It CAN take days. That in itself is the issue.

[Troll_Logic]

2 hours ago, Clownee said:

Bully for you kid, however we don't all live in the land of rainbows and unicorns, some of us have jobs and kids etc

What makes you think I don't.  Wait a sec...  Damn unicorn got out of the pen again.  I'll be right back.

2 hours ago, Clownee said:

Somtimes it's just not feasible for everyone to farm for hours a day,

Looks like someone didn't read my message.  Just knee-jerked out a response. 

[Clownee]

2 hours ago, Clownee said:

The ammount of time it took person A to get the frame means nothing I think the issue is (even if it IS an isolated case) It CAN take days. That in itself is the issue.

 

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, Clownee said:

The ammount of time it took person A to get the frame means nothing I think the issue is (even if it IS an isolated case) It CAN take days. That in itself is the issue.

It could always take days. For some people they didn't get rare parts after trying for months on the old system.

Do you want to say something with actual substance?

[Troll_Logic]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It could always take days. For some people they didn't get rare parts after trying for months on the old system.

Do you want to say something with actual substance?

He's thinking he's being clever with my response.  It just shows for the second time, he didn't read my reply and just knee-jerked out a response.

[Kalvorax]

On 3/1/2017 at 10:32 AM, rapt0rman said:

They aren't going to reduce the grind any more then this... ever. They don't want people to be able to farm primes on day one,

except that is EXACTLY what has happened....most recvently with banshee prime and her set.....I've seen MANY players selling full sets of Helios, Euphona AND Banshee Prime within HOURS of her release.

[Chipputer]

6 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

He's thinking he's being clever with my response.  It just shows for the second time, he didn't read my reply and just knee-jerked out a response.

Seems like another person who thinks, "my personal life is more important than this game so they should develop the game to suit my personal time constraints." Will never understand why people like that play F2P MMO types.

[Troll_Logic]

3 minutes ago, xcynderx said:

except that is EXACTLY what has happened....most recvently with banshee prime and her set.....I've seen MANY players selling full sets of Helios, Euphona AND Banshee Prime within HOURS of her release.

Yup.  It's what happens with every release.

Have the game work for you.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 0:32 PM, rapt0rman said:

They aren't going to reduce the grind any more then this... ever. They don't want people to be able to farm primes on day one, it has to be difficult or tedious, otherwise it's "pay us money to get this frame right now, or just get it today anyways" 

^^^This all day.  It seems that some are missing that fine and logical point.  What is the point of buying Prime Access if you can get all the stuff for free in one day. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

^^^This all day.  It seems that some are missing that fine and logical point.  What is the point of buying Prime Access if you can get all the stuff for free in one day. 

What is the point of forcing players with below-average luck to burn out on the game faster? They don't get Prime Access cash or any regular Platinum sales if people say "this isn't worth it any more" and quit. Point being, the RNG may be technically better on average, so if you could before you certainly still can, so that's irrelevant.

What is relevant is when you change a 20-minute burden of failure into a multiple-hour burden of failure. So the lucky get happier from even faster acquisition and the unlucky get unhappier from more onerous failures.

 

So, I got my Banshee systems, on the sixth relic run (roughly 8% chance of having taken this many tries), with Axi B1 relics averaging 2 hours 30 minutes between drops. 15 gameplay hours in total in the preparation stage, and that's with some previously collected traces.

Such fun.

Onto the Neo B1 search, which is allegedly going to take me twice as long in relic time comparitively. Looking forward to 45 gameplay hours spent with 40 of them amounting to about 400 ducats!

[Slaviar]

7 hours ago, Clownee said:

Sorry mate, but you're full of it, fact. T4 keys dropped like rain in Bolivia. The point is none of the systems we have or have had are perfect. Change is needed, if not adjusting drop rates then overhauling the system all-togeather.

Sorry 'mate' but T4 keys were much less of an issue, and probably for that reason devs' beloved spot for new releases was T3Surv.

[DatDarkOne]

Now take everything you just said and completely ignore the "I want it NOW!" factor.  Once you do that, it's no longer a problem or issue at all.  At least that how I see it.  I'm going to get Banshee Prime, but it's not a must do this second thing for me.  So, none of what you listed even remotely bothers me.  But that's just me, and I can't and will not try to speak for everyone.  Maybe it's because I'm use to playing games where you have to grind to get anything (which happens to include a good majority of games).  :D

 

edit:  Sorry, Slaviar's post hit before mine did.  I was referring to EDYinnet's post just above it.

Edited March 3, 2017 by DatDarkOne
corrected for clarity

[Slaviar]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

What is the point of forcing players with below-average luck to burn out on the game faster? They don't get Prime Access cash or any regular Platinum sales if people say "this isn't worth it any more" and quit. Point being, the RNG may be technically better on average, so if you could before you certainly still can, so that's irrelevant.

What is relevant is when you change a 20-minute burden of failure into a multiple-hour burden of failure. So the lucky get happier from even faster acquisition and the unlucky get unhappier from more onerous failures.

 

So, I got my Banshee systems, on the sixth relic run (roughly 8% chance of having taken this many tries), with Axi B1 relics averaging 2 hours 30 minutes between drops. 15 gameplay hours in total in the preparation stage, and that's with some previously collected traces.

Such fun.

Onto the Neo B1 search, which is allegedly going to take me twice as long in relic time comparitively. Looking forward to 45 gameplay hours spent with 40 of them amounting to about 400 ducats!

Statistically, around 18 rotations C were needed to get rare part you were after. Six sixty minutes long survivals. So six hours of mission time alone. If you had all six keys. You didn't? Well, go and farm.

I don't have data for relics drops so I have to assume all relics have same chance to drop so there's 12.5% per relic as there are 8 non-vaulted Axi relics.
Let us assume worst case scenario- relic drops only at C. It's at least 15 minutes of interception. On average it should take 8 runs to get it. 15*8=120=2h. Then trace farm. Average trace run can be shortened to 4 minutes and average trace drop is around 15. It's 7 runs to get 100 so 28min. Then rad share; it will last around 4 mins too. So 2h 32min on average to be ready to get and refine radiant. On average it takes 3 rad shares to get part so in the end it's 7h 36min per rare part. Throw in recruitment time 'n' stuff and we have your beloved 8h. It should take you 8h to farm that one part from scratch.
Entire process takes only 33% more than Void key. But only if we disregard farming keys. If we don't it likely takes same amount of time, maybe even less.
But as far as I know all Axi can drop from rot B on int/surv/def as long as it's not Dark Sector so it significantly cuts time needed and rushed defence can take as little as 10 minutes.

Look, I get it. You've spent hours upon hours farming keys. You thought you are set for long time but relics happened and your keys lost their value. Pair it with your luck and I see why you don't like relics. But you've burrowed yourself so deep into your dislike you refuse to see anything positive about relics.

[redeyedtreefrog]

old void

-required grinding missions for keys

-keys could be burned either through solo play or by recruiting a team from the recruiting channel

-Drop tables were often incredibly diluted

-No matchmaking system

-Only one tileset was played during the farming of the actual prime parts

-matchmaking for high-level missions often forced you to play one of a mere handful of warframes, meaning you had to comply with the current meta in order to find a squad

new relic system

-starchart missions still have to be farmed for the new cabbages

-keys can be burned through running a mission solo, finding a radshare from recruiting, OR by using the matchmaking system to go through public runs

-Relic drop tables are somewhat diluted, but the relics themselves all have the same chances of dropping each tier of prime part

-Virtually all of the game's tilesets (the only 2 tilesets not included are the lua and kuva fortress tile sets) are run through, increasing graphical diversity from mission to mission

-Both the public matchmaking and radshare groups from recruiting rarely request a specific frame, allowing you much more freedom as to which class you choose

 

Looks to me like the new void system has offered a vast improvement in the way prime parts are obtained, as far as gameplay variety and flow are concerned.

Are the drop chances still low? Can you sometimes find yourself grinding for hours for a single prime part? yes and yes. But prime gear isn't meant to be a cakewalk to get. It's SUPPOSED to take effort. Part of that is DE's prime access business model (which, by the way, is probably a big part of what keeps the lights on at DE), and part of it is simply a bit of a time-sink in order to pace the speed at which you get the newly released prime content.

tl;dr: it seems like you're asking that farming for prime gear be made easy. There's multiple reasons why that will not happen.