Endless Rotations: Really, DE?

[Elyann]

1 hour ago, Madotsuki said:

I'm sure most of you know about Rotations in endless missions, A-A-B-C and so on. Up until this point, I've always assumed that the Rotations went like this: A-A-B-C-C-C-C-C... and so on. You know, because it'd actually make sense. Except, while farming Nidus for the first time today, I found out the rotations DON'T work that way. Instead, they rotate back to A after C, so you only get C rewards every 4 waves.

...I can't even begin to describe how utterly stupid this is. WHY would anyone, outside of farming exp on Akkad, EVER go past the fourth reward? The whole point should've been if you kept going against tougher and more numerous enemies, you get to keep rolling the C pool and skip the first three rotations, that's the risk-reward trade, you're fighting tougher enemies to save time. It makes absolutely zero sense for it to switch back to the A pool, and makes going past round 4/wave 20 completely pointless! Not to mention this makes C-pool exclusive rewards absolutely cancerous to farm, as if this game isn't grindy enough as is.

DE, seriously, you're clearly capable developers to have made a game that lasted this long and still has a huge playerbase, you've made enjoyable (if seriously flawed) content, so WHY can't you get even the BASICS right when it comes to anything involving farming?!

 

Edit: Alright, adding a little explanation to counter generic questions. "B-b-but my A rewards!" You say? The answer is, again, simple. Don't have exclusive rewards in the A and B pools, excluding trash-tier drops like bronze mods being completely filtered out. Think of it like buffing Relics with Void Traces, low tier rewards have lower chances of dropping, but are STILL THERE, meanwhile you get better chances at high tier rewards because you invested traces/effort into it.

Alternatively, taking something like Infested Salvage as an example, the Rotation could be changed to A-B-C-B-C-B-C, where B has low chances of Nidus parts but high chances of Relics, while C has low chances of Relics and high chances of Nidus parts, since theoretically you'd only need one set of Nidus parts for life anyway. Honestly things would be a million times simpler if DE just put the parts in the quest itself like every other frame quest, but it's too late for that now. I'd still have reason to keep going further past the first C, because I'd still be skipping all the As!

Really, if you want to argue, give me a practical reason to ever go past the first Rotation C under the current system.

I mean....it's been like this for ages ?
 

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, Madotsuki said:

There is, by restricting certain high tier rewards to B (lower chance) and C, so you can't just constantly rerun the baseline. It's about having to put in the bare minimum time to make it to C, then your farming efficiency will be affected by how high level you're willing to deal with. Basic risk-reward.

What's risk-reward about actually being forced to restart the mission for the second rotation, which will also by default be the second easiest?

The only problem with the current rotation system is that it ignores time spent in the mission, not that it cycles from A to C.

Edited March 18, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Volinus7]

If you think from business aspect, it's not stupid.

[Madotsuki]

Just now, AdunSaveMe said:

What's risk-reward about actually being forced to restart the mission for the second rotation, which will also by default be the second easiest?

The only problem with the current rotation system is that it ignores time spent in the mission, not that it cycles from A to C.

Point ->

                Your head

That is literally the argument I've been making. The current cycling system ignores time spent in the mission, thus making it utterly pointless to go beyond Round 4, and this is a problem that can be fixed by CHANGING the cycling system! That is literally the point of arguing for a change in rotations!

[AdunSaveMe]

Just now, Madotsuki said:

Point ->

                Your head

That is literally the argument I've been making. The current cycling system ignores time spent in the mission, thus making it utterly pointless to go beyond Round 4, and this is a problem that can be fixed by CHANGING the cycling system! That is literally the point of arguing for a change in rotations!

The problem is NOT that it cycles from A to C, and the problem of ignoring time spent in missions is not solved by making almost every rotation C.

It's not "utterly pointless" to go beyond round 4, either.

[Madotsuki]

Just now, AdunSaveMe said:

The problem is NOT that it cycles from A to C, and the problem of ignoring time spent in missions is not solved by making almost every rotation C.

It's not "utterly pointless" to go beyond round 4, either.

Going beyond round 4 leaves me with tougher and more numerous enemies, yet all I get is the exact same rewards with the exact same drop rates from Round 1. How is that not pointless? The only practical reason anyone would do that would be to farm exp (and by wave 20 you should've gotten plenty of exp already anyway), or farm mutagen masses in ODD.

And again, by changing the reward pools so C includes the significant drops of A and B, changing the cycle DOES fix the problem, because by going beyond Round 4, I am effectively saving time by skipping three pointless rounds that won't give me anything I'm looking for! It is the difference between having to roll once every 4 rounds, to rolling once EVERY round as long as I can bear with scaling enemies!

[nerfinator6]

3 minutes ago, Madotsuki said:

Going beyond round 4 leaves me with tougher and more numerous enemies, yet all I get is the exact same rewards with the exact same drop rates from Round 1. How is that not pointless? The only practical reason anyone would do that would be to farm exp (and by wave 20 you should've gotten plenty of exp already anyway), or farm mutagen masses in ODD.

And again, by changing the reward pools so C includes the significant drops of A and B, changing the cycle DOES fix the problem, because by going beyond Round 4, I am effectively saving time by skipping three pointless rounds that won't give me anything I'm looking for! It is the difference between having to roll once every 4 rounds, to rolling once EVERY round as long as I can bear with scaling enemies!

Please shut up, you're giving me a headache...

[Madotsuki]

Just now, nerfinator6 said:

Please shut up, you're giving me a headache...

Or maybe you can stop reading the thread if you have literally nothing to contribute to the topic instead of telling everyone you disagree with to shut up on a forum dedicated to giving feedback about game content?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Madotsuki

[nerfinator6]

Just now, Madotsuki said:

Or maybe you can stop reading the thread if you have literally nothing to contribute to the topic instead of telling everyone you disagree with to shut up on a forum dedicated to giving feedback about game content?

See, the thing is, I'm not disagreeing with everyone, everyone's disagreeing with YOU

[Madotsuki]

Just now, nerfinator6 said:

See, the thing is, I'm not disagreeing with everyone, everyone's disagreeing with YOU

And that's cause for censoring someone? There's already been replies that agreed with me that the system is flawed, just not necessarily agreeing with the proposed solution, and if you really don't care, just quit the thread, it'll die if no one replies and I'm not bumping my own comments, m8.

[nerfinator6]

Just now, Madotsuki said:

And that's cause for censoring someone? There's already been replies that agreed with me that the system is flawed, just not necessarily agreeing with the proposed solution, and if you really don't care, just quit the thread, it'll die if no one replies and I'm not bumping my own comments, m8.

Well, I did, but you keep sending me notifications.

[Madotsuki]

2 minutes ago, nerfinator6 said:

Well, I did, but you keep sending me notifications.

Just unfollow the thread then, or if that's not possible, ignore the notifications. Just because it pops up doesn't mean you need to click it.

You're really only getting notified because I'm quoting you, and you're still on the thread page. Just stop posting and get off the thread and you'll be fine.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Madotsuki

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

How did you just noticed this? Sounds like you never went past 20 mins/waves in an endless ever

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I'm not going to disagree. I think they should sequentially rotate out the A and B drop tables until eventually...if you're willing to endure the tedium....you're getting nothing but the C rewards. 

I figure if you've got that kind of patience, you deserve all the rotation C you can stomach. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[ChuckMaverick]

Any change should review and rework the whole system, or it will be a lot of work for very little benefit, simply changing the order of the rotation is going to cause as many problems as it solves.

There are situations where I like the A-A rotation, farming Lith relics in ODD for example, so I only need to craft one key for every two relics; and sticking around for 10 waves/minutes can often be quicker that running the mission twice due to the time taken to get the mission going and to extract.

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

blame your own ignorance on this one OP. the drop table makes perfect sense it its structure even though it would make more sense for nidus parts to be distributed between all rotations

[TheChaotic1]

I'd rather each set of 4 be different.

Start with classic AABC then swap to ABCD where the D pool has some really nice drops (gold mods normally dropped by rare enemies, 500+ endo) 

Then for the next cycle you get AABC+ which filters out common rewards a little, gives huge credit boosts.

Then ABCD+ which is self explanatory.

Past that is masochism.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

12 hours ago, DogManDan said:

I stopped by for the lolz. Someone if a few years late on this conversation

That was my thought. Particularly given his high lvl/forum status. If you ever wanted to know the drop locations/tables, for anything, at any point over the last 6 or so years, the rotation list is clearly labelled. I'm just a lowly console player and even I know that.

Edited March 18, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[Phatose]

Am I the only one thinking "AAB then C forever" is not a rotation at all, it's just a straight line?  That's kind of a strange thing to think about how rotation works, never coming back around.

 

That said, DE is aware of the concerns regarding risk/reward, as is shown by the stacking boosts in endless fissure missions.  It may or may not make it to non-fissure endless missions, but it is there.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Phatose

[Volinus7]

Hamster wheel is absolute! You mustn't escape from it!!

[Loswaith]

The design of missions was always around 15 to 20 minutes per mission on average.  Thus the AABC rotation was intentional because it was designed around being able to get a chance at all rewards for your 20 minutes (why it resets each time). 

Long ago defense missions (the first endless) actually only went for 15 waves and then ended (giving the reward), but players asked DE to let them just keep going.  Thus we got the 5 wave extractions (5 mins when Survival came along), but players could go longer.  DE still wanted to keep that 15/20 minute block as all you really had to do.

Along came void keys, making going longer a good option because you got more value for an individual key at the cost of more risk.   As more parts got added there became a need for distinct loot tiers to reduce dilution.  Thus void birthed the current rotation system to achieve that.  Seeing it work in the void as the game grew, the rest of the star chart endless missions adopted the rotation system as well helping to keep the game have a more unified system.

So yes, it is mostly pointless to go longer, that is by design.  You can go longer if you want but are never forced to go longer (players have the choice).

Edited March 19, 2017 by Loswaith

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Is...is that...

is that Hamster Prime!?!

[sv650racer]

Unless you are like literally MR2 or you bought everything in this game, you should already know the rotation pattern. 

Also welcome to F2P games.

[Lawmonark]

 Would be better if they added D.

Then had it run A-B-C-D-C-D-C-D---ect

Repeating the last two rotations. This way people get what they are grinding for.

Right now there is not reason to go past 20 min or wave 20... Because its "easier" to just leave and re-queue.

Honestly, i would prefer Teirs of the rotations.

A1-A1-B1-C1---A2-A2-B2-C2-----A3-A3-B3-C3

Making going on for  long time worth something. Maybe add "special" loot relics their.

 

 

[Leyers_of_facade]

This post is a bit too late. Back in void key era, that maybe a good time to post it, nowadays? not really.

 

Anyway, my view on this suggestion is pretty simple. Although we can keep the rotation AABC, simply by allowing the second and following AABC rotation have a higher chance for "rare" drops would be a sufficient reason for people to move on. (similar to how the relic system is, except you don't throw void traces into it, but by staying longer in the mission.)

To push it further, maybe make this option to be something the players can choose? so if people want to farm some commonly dropped items on particular rotations (ie hiera for endo), they can just go with the original setting rather than this alternative mode.