The Dex Nouchali is gorgeous but i wont be able to use it (Arcanes)

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I would like to be able to equip arcanes on the customize screen when you are selecting your arsenal. This way I could just swap helms or syandanas and apply the arcane in the same way I change colors for instance. 

It avoids the pain to go to foundry etc etc...

[S0V3REiGN]

2 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Just have 2 arcane slots on frames, and free cosmetics from stats completely. Sometimes I just want to go without a syandana, eh?

This what I want too. What's the point of all of this tennogen stuff we use the same damn helmets and syandanas all the time?

[Jukantos]

Also, we wouldnt have to discard the old arcane helmets if we were to do this, their bonus could simply be transformed into an arcane that can be exclusively equipped on that specific frame.

That way, you have ZERO changes on the performance level (1 extra arcane slot for those who use the effect off an old helmet, 2 for everyone else) and you remove the cosmetic binding.

Admittedly, Arcane Bonuses aren't that big of a deal with a few exceptions (Arcane Avenger huehuehue) but it would be SUCH a meaningfull quality of life improvement to have them seperated from the true endgame fashionframe. There's actually financial harm in keeping this system for DE too. If i am disincentivized from buying new cool cosmetics because i won't feel comfortable using them anyway (as they dont have Arcanes on them), it will naturally make it less likely to spend my euros or platinum on cosmetics, and im 99% sure im not the only player who is as lazy as me in not transferring their Arcanes over and over and over.

Can we simply get them as Upgrade / Regalia Slots? Please? As a QoL Upgrade?

[-Temp0-]

On 29.03.2017 at 1:48 AM, ChuckMaverick said:

Arcane extractors are buy once, use forever now, they're not consumable any more.

Aka spend more time swapping your arcanes between helmets and syandanas than actually playing the game. Because even if it was a step forward from the old systme it still means spending the time swapping those each time you want to put it on a different cosmetics. Which in fashionframe means often.

 

[taiiat]

yeah ofcourse as always, Arcanes shouldn't be tied to Cosmetics.

doing so, causes a Stats vs Cosmetics issue, which is ofcourse completely inappropriate.
being forced to use Cosmetic items even if one doesn't want to, is very immature.

especially with how big Cosmetic things continue to get in Warframe, and only get bigger - conflicting Stats and Cosmetics will only continue to be a worse and worse decision.

[Tesseract7777]

On 3/28/2017 at 2:30 PM, Phatose said:

You're not the first to suggest this.

You do need to make some addendum though, since it does cause powercreep without explicitly dealing with old arcane helmets.  If the effects convert to slot using, then you need to specify that they can only be used on the frame the helmet was originally for.  If they don't, then they need to take up a slot when equipped.

This is a good point. It would have to be set up somehow that the old-school arcane helmets took up a slot or something in this new system. But overall the current way we slot arcanes is awful. 

Of course, imo they need to find a way to simply remove the old arcane helms from the game. Compensate people who have them with a legendary core for each or something so they don't grouse too much, and just move on. I think they should have been removed from the game long ago. 

Far too many builds they are still considered too important for, and no more new arcane helms will ever exist. 

[Jukantos]

Just like the Dex Nouchali, Baro's beautifull new syandana has once again brought this topic to my attention in the most painfull way. I want to use all of these Q_Q

If nothing should change, can we at least get a way to bind our arcanes to multiple cosmetics of the same type? Like, let me put my Avengers on multiple Syandanas (and make them untradeable unless i unequip them from all)

Edited April 8, 2017 by Jukantos

[ChuckMaverick]

Having fashion tied to combat performance (unless it's thematic, which this isn't) is a bad idea and they should be separated from each other.

[wanderere]

hell yeah, I'd even spend some money on warframe if this happened, that tennogen stuff is nioce. ;)

[Seinerweisen]

lmao. people married to Arcanes because of the bonuses they give. I

[Ryme]

Don't see how this differs from me wanting to use Mesas power set on Frost, because I like how Frost looks better.  Or I like the performance and mechanics of Quanta, but wish it looked like Opticor instead. Or I like how War looks, but wish it had the stats of Galatine Prime.

[ChuckMaverick]

4 hours ago, Ryme said:

Don't see how this differs from me wanting to use Mesas power set on Frost, because I like how Frost looks better.  Or I like the performance and mechanics of Quanta, but wish it looked like Opticor instead. Or I like how War looks, but wish it had the stats of Galatine Prime.

Because arcanes don't 'look' like anything (old helmets aside) and don't fit thematically with a particular helmet or syandana.

There is no obvious reason to tie them to cosmetic items other than restricting their use to two per loadout, and there are other ways to do that which don't interfere with fashion frame.

[Ylantron]

always wanted to have two slots in the loadout instead of manually distill and requip them
+1

[Liminal]

On 3/28/2017 at 3:30 PM, Phatose said:

You do need to make some addendum though, since it does cause powercreep without explicitly dealing with old arcane helmets.

Yeah, this should be addressed as well. My suggestion would be to turn old arcane helmets into regular helmets (thus improving cosmetic customization for those frames), and giving players who had said helmets frame-restricted arcanes with the removed effects.

Oh and turn "arcane helmet blueprints" into "vintage arcane blueprints" that produce both a helmet and the arcane.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

That's how you fix it, I'm yet to see a solution better than mine. It essentially changes everything without changing any mechanic at all. Keeping both players and DE happy. There's actully 0 reason for a fix like that not to be implemented.

 

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

On 2017-3-31 at 10:14 AM, Evanescent said:

Just have 2 arcane slots on frames, and free cosmetics from stats completely. Sometimes I just want to go without a syandana, eh?

You'd be completely disrupting economy and the third, fourth and so on acquiring of a set appeal. Check my thread, it's how a fix should be done in this regard.

[Evanescent]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

You'd be completely disrupting economy

How so?

2 minutes ago, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

and the third, fourth and so on acquiring of a set appeal.

Please expound a bit, didn't really get what you're driving at.

 

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

33 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

snip

 

Disclaimer: I dunno how to quote two pieces of a post, sorry for reducing to 'snip'.

My thread explains it perfectly but i feel like explaining again since most people don't really see it straight off the bat.

We have two arcane situations currently with different characteristics:

1. Syandana: ALL frames have access to an arcane equipped to a syandana, you just need to equip it, which, sadly, limits our fashion frame choices and potentially hurt syanadas' sales revenue.

Fix: In my thread I explain how an invisible 'arcane bracelet equipment' should replace the syandana in this regard, enabling any warframe to access that arcane (and any other, should they be equipped to a bracelet) at loadout screen.

2. Helms: Here is where people usually fail to understand. An enhanced helm is tied to a warframe and that warframe only. DE designed it this way and want it this way. It functions differently from a syandana for a reason.

Example: Upon buying a second energize set, you'll have to choose which warframe (through its helm) will benefit from the 'stacked' energize set. It's not accessible from other frames unless you distill it every time you change a warframe; you can skip that process by buying a third, a fourth, a fifth set and so on, to equip to other warframes' helms.

See that acquiring more sets has the appeal of simplifying this but not completely shutting off players with 2 sets, since they are still able to swap the second set through warframes but needing to go through distilling process to do so.

I for example own 8 energize sets: 1 tied to a syandana and other 7 tied to different warframes' helms. Even then, it unnecessarily limits my helm choice. 

Had we simply got 2 arcane slots like you suggested, I'd have only bought 2 arcane sets and I assure you i'd spend that money nowhere else. If you can't see how this hurts economy, i can't help you.

'Oh so DE wants all teh moneyz'. Wrong again: The current system is balanced: 1 easily swappable arcane set; 1 locked to a warframe. I dare anyone say it's not reasonable. It's the very definition of fifty fifty. The only problem is tying all of that with cosmetics, and that, my idea gets rid of.

Fix: Warframes have an arcane core replacing the helm's functionality. Instead of equipping an arcane to a helm, you now equip it to the warframe's core. It will still be able to be distilled, should you want to swap it between frames but now people are able to freely change helms with 0 impact on fashion frame. Legacy Arcane Helms would lock a Warframe's arcane core.

-----

As you can see, the 2 slots we have for arcanes work differently; you can't simply ask DE to make'em both work the same, that'd be asking for more than just QoL and that's how you fail any negotiation: asking for more. 

disclaimer:  i know many people who buy third, fourth sets and so on just to bypass the distilling process of the second set between warframes and many mmorpgs do that, it's how you keep economy warm.

Edited May 17, 2017 by (PS4)cdzbrbr

[Evanescent]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

Disclaimer: I dunno hoiw to quote two pieces of a post, sorry for reducing to 'snip'.

You press enter to go to a new line, then press enter again to break the quote like so:

Quote

My thread explains it perfectly but i feel like explaining again since most people don't really see it straight off the bat.

We have two arcane situations currently with different characteristics:

1. Syandana: ALL frames have access to an arcane equipped to a syandana, you just need to equip it, which, sadly, limits our fashion frame choices and potentially hurt syanadas' sales revenue.

Fix: In my thread I explain how an invisible 'arcane bracelet equipment' should replace the syandana in this regard, enabling any warframe to access that arcane (and any other, should they be equipped to a bracelet) at loadout screen.

2. Helms: Here is where people usually fail to understand. An enhanced helm is tied to a warframe and that warframe only. DE designed it this way and want it this way. It functions differently from a syandana for a reason.

Example: Upon buying a second energize set, you'll have to choose which warframe (through its helm) will benefit from the 'stacked' energize set. It's not accessible from other frames unless you distill it every time you change a warframe; you can skip that process by buying a third, a fourth, a fifth set and so on, to equip to other warframes' helms.

See that acquiring more sets has the appeal of simplifying this but not completely shutting off players with 2 sets, since they are still able to swap the second set through warframes but needing to go through distilling process to do so.

I for example own 8 energize sets: 1 tied to a syandana and other 7 tied to different warframes' helms. Even then, it unnecessarily limits my helm choice. See that acquiring more sets has the appeal of simplifying this but not completely shutting off players with 2 sets, since they are still able to swap the second set through warframes but needing distillers to do so.

Fix: Warframes have an arcane core replacing the helm's functionality. Instead of equipping an arcane to a helm, you now equip it to the warframe's core. It will still be able to be distilled, should you want to swap it between frames but now people are able to freely change helms with 0 impact on fashion frame. Legacy Arcane Helms would lock a Warframe's arcane core.

-----

As you can see, the 2 slots we have for arcanes work differently; you can't simply ask DE to make'em both work the same, that'd be asking for more than just QoL and that's how you fail any negotiation: asking for more. 

The current system is balanced: 1 easily swappable arcane set; 1 locked to a warframe. I dare anyone say it's not reasonable. It's the very definition of fifty fifty. The only problem is tying all of that with cosmetics, and that, my idea gets rid of.

disclaimer:  i know many people who buy third, fourth sets and so on just to bypass the distilling process of the second set between warframes and many mmorpgs do that, it's how you keep economy warm.

What you propose is essentially two slots with a caveat: that of one making a arcane restricted to that frame. 

Imo Arcanes are not accessible enough and varied enough to command such restriction. You can argue about it keeping the economy warm, but at the end of the day it is not consumer friendly. As such, I must oppose this.

We are aware DE might not like our proposal, trust me. But we continue to make it nonetheless: give us 2 arcane slots. Make customization easier, make it easier to experiment and vary builds.

At the end of the day, we are not here to make excuses for DE's financial decisions. We are here to debate and give feedback on what is beneficial to us as a consumer, and it is then DE's job to sift and try to fit that into their design. 

Yes Warframe is their baby, but it is us that keep it company.  

Edited May 17, 2017 by Evanescent

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

4 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

You press enter to go to a new line, then press enter again to break the quote like so:

Felt like magic lol, thanks.

4 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

What you propose is essentially two slots with a caveat: that of one making a arcane restricted to that frame. 

Imo Arcanes are not accessible enough and varied enough to command such restriction. You can argue about it keeping the economy warm, but at the end of the day it is not consumer friendly. As such, I must oppose this.

True but again, that goes beyond the fashion frame debate. What I aim is simply to untie cosmetics from performance completely, it's what TC wants too. Going reactionary and beyond the theme is how we get nothing i assure you.

Would i like if the 90% of arcanes which are useless were made good? Yes.  

Would I like to simply go yolo, ask for 2 slots and then be able to sell my 6 extra sets for 24k plat? Jeez. Do I need to answer? lol

That's not my approach though as that's really how we get nothing. They 'laugh' at us and just say something about distillers while completely missing the point the rare occasions Reb touches on the subject during a Devstream. You know that.

We have an expression in portuguese: To punch the knife-point. It basically means you're going nowhere and potentially hurting yourself by insisting in doing so.

4 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

We are aware DE might not like our proposal, trust me. But we continue to make it nonetheless: give us 2 arcane slots. Make customization easier, make it easier to experiment and vary builds.

That's achieveable with the current system albeit boring. It would be with my system too by cutting the whole process duration in half. You'd just have to keep distilling the core til you find twhat suits you best, then keep it.

4 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

At the end of the day, we are not here to make excuses for DE's financial decisions. We are here to debate and give feedback on what is beneficial to us as a consumer, and it is then DE's job to sift and try to fit that into their design. 

Yes Warframe is their baby, but it is us that keep it company.  

Perfectly said and it's EXACTLY what I did: Their jobs. It's how one seamlessly integrates our fashion frame concerns to their design.

I must insist on this: Baby steps (although simply untying cosmetics from performance alone would be huge) then you polish the few rough edges. 

Priorities: Our main concern and TC's concern is fashion frame. Let's deal with it together, then we move to the next.

 

 

 

[MisterUltimate]

On 3/28/2017 at 1:15 PM, Jukantos said:

We could add two arcane slots in the top left and right corner of our warframe upgrade loadouts, clearly distinguish them from mod slots by giving them the half-circle look the arcanes themselves have, and keep them invisible until at least one of the Sekharas associated with completing a Trial (thus earning an Arcane) has been acquired.

 

 

This keeps coming up a lot because it is the simplest solution. Doing this, and separating the buff/debuff from Arcane Helmets into something like a Corrupted Arcane would serve to completely divorce stats and cosmetics. I've commented before that anytime you can observe the K.I.S.S. rule when designing a system, you should absolutely do it. The way arcanes were handled is a perfect example of this.

Edited May 17, 2017 by MisterUltimate
proof reading

[Evanescent]

12 hours ago, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

Felt like magic lol, thanks.

Glad I could help. :)

Quote

True but again, that goes beyond the fashion frame debate. What I aim is simply to untie cosmetics from performance completely, it's what TC wants too. Going reactionary and beyond the theme is how we get nothing i assure you.

See, this is the problem I have with your suggestion: you suggest a fine bandaid over a problem. That means, however, that the bandaid only covers a symptom, and in time the cracks will begin to show. If you have to touch it at all, you have to decide on an overhaul. Building on broken bricks won't get you very far.

Quote

Would i like if the 90% of arcanes which are useless were made good? Yes.   

Would I like to simply go yolo, ask for 2 slots and then be able to sell my 6 extra sets for 24k plat? Jeez. Do I need to answer? lol

That's not my approach though as that's really how we get nothing. They 'laugh' at us and just say something about distillers while completely missing the point the rare occasions Reb touches on the subject during a Devstream. You know that.

No, I don't believe they laugh at us. I also don't believe in putting words in DE's mouth or assuming intent for their actions. Our job as customers is to state our concerns, and their job is to amend the service where possible to meet said concerns. It is not our job to meet a compromise. That is, I repeat, their job. When you present a compromise, it is likely a compromise will be made on the compromise. 

Quote

We have an expression in portuguese: To punch the knife-point. It basically means you're going nowhere and potentially hurting yourself by insisting in doing so.

Yes, but where I live there is also a saying that goes 'To reach the furthest mountain you must reach for the moon'. That is how you begin: with a high concept that is gradually brought to terms with reality. You don't start by grinding it into the ground.

Quote

That's achieveable with the current system albeit boring. It would be with my system too by cutting the whole process duration in half. You'd just have to keep distilling the core til you find twhat suits you best, then keep it.

Your system would infuriate players actually. Because it shows that DE is capable of implementing arcane slots and with it they dangle it before our noses without committing. 

Because that's what it is: two slots with a caveat. People don't want that caveat. In terms of gameplay, it (the caveat) adds nothing besides adding menu-time and choking customization. 

Quote

Perfectly said and it's EXACTLY what I did: Their jobs. It's how one seamlessly integrates our fashion frame concerns to their design.

I must insist on this: Baby steps (although simply untying cosmetics from performance alone would be huge) then you polish the few rough edges. 

Priorities: Our main concern and TC's concern is fashion frame. Let's deal with it together, then we move to the next.

 

With due respect, you are too taken with your concept. I can relate to that, every creator has their time with rose coloured glasses. 

Also with due respect, it is neither your nor our place to do their jobs for them. They are the professionals, we are not. We also do not know if the two slot arcane system would truly benefit or harm DE without solid numbers and projections as such only DE can provide.

Therefore, I do not think it is convincing as an argument to attempt on compromising since we do not even know if the compromise is needed. 

Also, one last thing.

It is better to work on a system and leave it in a spot that will work for a long time than to have to continually go back and revisit it. Doing so would create problems for future implementation as you would not know how exactly you should design your future additions to that system: the old way or the new way? It would eat dev time that would benefit other things.

I feel we must agree to disagree. We have had a very enjoyable debate, and I must tip my hat to you for making a creative suggestion and standing by it. Due to differences in our understanding however I don't think we will reach middle ground.

Let us continue our own battles and see which prevails. The best of luck to you, and I hope to see more ideas from you in my daily haunts of the forums.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Evanescent

[Jukantos]

The problem is that im not a founder, and very much not a member of the design council and this idea HAS been brought up before, so my chances to get any attention are tiny, which is frustrating.

You could design this system in a way that it mechanically has no benefit for players on a mechanical level other than as previously stated avoiding the need for people to have multiple sets of the same (sometimes rare) arcanes. Is that tiny benefit of making arcanes "sit" in players cosmetics really worth limiting our fashion frame choices this much? I had bought over 50 Syandanas by the point i got my Arcane Avenger set, i'd love to buy some of the Tennogen ones or the new ones that are released but i am completely disincentivized because of the incredibly valuable arcanes stuck to my one Syandana.

I dont get how this does not hurt the Plat-Sales for Syandanas to a degree that would make DE want to change and untie the system. I cant be the only one who has stopped spending plat on new Syandanas simply because i "cant" use them

But, you did at least show me ONE potential motive for keeping the status quo outside of the obvious development effort: The fact that it makes people gather multiple sets of arcanes, thus taking them off the market.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Jukantos

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

9 hours ago, Evanescent said:

snip

I was going to respond to each thing but let's confess, it would be cumbersome for the both of us but i enjoyed the debate as well. I'll just leave one thing:

With 2 free slots, the simplest, idea, you have no idea what the impact on the economy would be and once it's done you just can't revert, it'd be like putting a homeless in a mansion then kicking him back to the streets a week later. 

What you and other people seem to be lacking at is looking at the whole perspective: Economical pov, Developer's pov.

This is a business for them and even in the micro world that wf is, farming arcanes is a business too.

Trampling all of that is not reasonable at all; specially when me and TC are mostly bothered by limited fashion frame choices, which, I repeat, my idea flawlessly gets rid of. 

1 semi comitting slot

1 non comitting slot

Again, I fail to see how that isn't reasonable.

Having everything your way is not how one negotiates.

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by (PS4)cdzbrbr

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

6 hours ago, Jukantos said:

The problem is that im not a founder, and very much not a member of the design council and this idea HAS been brought up before, so my chances to get any attention are tiny, which is frustrating.

You could design this system in a way that it mechanically has no benefit for players on a mechanical level other than as previously stated avoiding the need for people to have multiple sets of the same (sometimes rare) arcanes. Is that tiny benefit of making arcanes "sit" in players cosmetics really worth limiting our fashion frame choices this much? I had bought over 50 Syandanas by the point i got my Arcane Avenger set, i'd love to buy some of the Tennogen ones or the new ones that are released but i am completely disincentivized because of the incredibly valuable arcanes stuck to my one Syandana.

I dont get how this does not hurt the Plat-Sales for Syandanas to a degree that would make DE want to change and untie the system. I cant be the only one who has stopped spending plat on new Syandanas simply because i "cant" use them

But, you did at least show me ONE potential motive for keeping the status quo outside of the obvious development effort: The fact that it makes people gather multiple sets of arcanes, thus taking them off the market.

Glad I could put some insight on the matter.

There's a way to keep the status quo AND untie arcanes from cosmetics, which seemed to be your main concern and i assure you it's my main concern as well.

Have you read my idea? You just create a new equipment, an invisible one, I named them bracelets but you can name them whatever and then you equip your arcane there. These, like any other equipment would be available to all your warframes, essentially replacing syandanas as arcane holders.

The semi comitting slot represented by helms, since they are tied to a specific frame on top of being tied to a cosmetic item would be replaced by equipping that arcane directly to the warframe, which i named arcane core; as with helms, they won't be available to all warframes unless you distill it, but it would give us helm choice freedom too.

I insist: going yolo asking for 2 slots will get us nowhere.