[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

3 minutes ago, Kamoenix said:

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack
Double post

[Emposteel]

Not sure how I feel about the rework.

Very fun but...

Well, i'am here to report some "bugs" i guess:

 

• Zarr Barrage fire cancel Stasis in any case. (no multishot)
• Synoid Simulor cancel Stasis after 13 shots ( no multishot)
• Sonicor cancel stasis after 12 shots (no multishot)
• (and a bunch of other weapons, pox especeally, and gaz cloud can be frozen)
• Phage don't seem to work on stasis. Impossible to concentrarte the beam while aiming.
• In general, beam weapons don't work really good

[Somb3rBivalve]

3 hours ago, ashrah said:

atlas need hp buff.. cz its pure melee character.. forst is good  she can be defender or cc

Those are kind of unrelated things to status procs tho. But to the OP, yes, not being able to proc does kind of suck

Edited March 25, 2017 by Somb3rBivalve
misunderstood the OP

[Slum.Dog]

Is anyone else noticing the randomness of Banish on who and where it chooses to activate?

Sometimes it feels like Equinox's Rest and Rage where you don't have to aim directly at the enemy, but other times you do? Sometimes it will Banish a nice crowd of enemies but other times in only does a few out of all of them.

I just "pre-fired" Banish to get enemies that are down the hall and around the corner. It activated but only Banished 1 or 2 while its very clear there were other enemies right next to the Banished target.

Hopefully this is just something that can be fixed easily and won't be left behind.

[Death_Master_]

Abilities are good just on exception - 1-st one.

If you revert changes to 1-st ability to before rework state it will be good again.

Without 1-st ability(as i'm obviously NOT in same plane where enemies are) gameplay isn't good now. 

[Rythiman]

1 hour ago, Kamoenix said:

 

The number should be used in the rift, but caused me to get down endless times when I dash out and place enemies in the rift, the frame is so squishy that even that second out of the rift meant my death. I was quite happy with the single target banish as it worked well and left the limbo well protected against high level environments, The number 1 change is the main thing that needs to be fixed.

 

I've learned that if you want to be able to banish people from the rift, use cataclysm. If you want them to stay, use rift surge and even if you cancel cataclysm they will stay in the rift. Banish and stasis several enemies this way, without exiting the rift.

[Frenjo]

4 minutes ago, Rythiman said:

I've learned that if you want to be able to banish people from the rift, use cataclysm. If you want them to stay, use rift surge and even if you cancel cataclysm they will stay in the rift. Banish and stasis several enemies this way, without exiting the rift.

The thing is, that's making it even more clunky than normal, whereas past banish was just one button spam and you've banished whatever you want without having to do all these combinations. I think it's a little overcomplicated, and hell, I'm a Limbo main so for me to say something's complicated is saying something. :P

[Kamoenix]

11 minutes ago, Rythiman said:

I've learned that if you want to be able to banish people from the rift, use cataclysm. If you want them to stay, use rift surge and even if you cancel cataclysm they will stay in the rift. Banish and stasis several enemies this way, without exiting the rift.

Ah cool, thanks for the tip. 

[ClawFinger]

run around, press shift into the rift we go.  find mobs, press 2, then 4 in order not to get one shotted down.  press 3, melee or whatever, if u spread ur 3 enuf, after 4 is over ur not dead!

 

thats all i could figure out so far.

[Zoh_Veldae]

So far, it's excellent.

I've been playing the new Limbo, and I'm ever so glad that this rework happened!

He's not a joke anymore! He's an actually capable and viable frame to use! He's not just a meme-frame anymore (well, technically he IS a real meme now, but a useful one and not just for trolling)!

Although, some parts of the update still bother me. Sorry for being so picky with it when you went out of your way to make Limbo good again, but this has to be said:

1- Banish only affecting targets on the same plane- I don't like this. I don't like this AT ALL. It was Limbo's main job to pick out targets, kidnap them into the Shadow Realm and Knockdown Finish them. It was the only thing he was good at before, but he did it WELL. I understand that this is for balancing purposes now that Banish is an AoE, but can't you make it so we can Banish single targets while we use the skill for inter-planar kidnapping? And have it stay AoE while using it when both us and the target are in the same plane.

2-The projectile cap on the new Stasis ability- Again, I understand the need for this to avoid having too many objects and crashing the game. But 300 is hardly anything when there's 4 players just raining bullets (and knives) everywhere. Maybe have the cap be raised according to Power Strength or something.

3- We STILL have unit collision with enemies while we are in the Rift and they are not- I actually made a post in the suggestion section about this. And it STILL bothers me that this detail wasn't addressed.

 

And for now, that's it! I am actually happy with the update. Not just Limbo's rework but ALL the additions to this update as well! The new quest is nicely designed for the most part, the new Warframe looks really fun (the method of obtaining her components, however, is a bit of a drag) and especially the Captura mode is super awesome! ESPECIALLY when it allowed me to create this!

Overall, a very good update! A few tweaks and it will be PERFECT!

Edited March 25, 2017 by Zoh_Veldae
modified link

[Phantom-6]

Two problems...Everything has already been stated a dozen plus times on here, so i'll just make a list.

1)  The Banish

2)  The rift dash taking the place of roll. 

3) Rift Surge must be targeted and isn't a buff.

4) Time stop just seems useless.  the projectiles fire like a chain gun afterwards but they still take time giving the target to move.

Final Verdict - Limbo is far worse off now than he was before.  One more frame to throw in the dumpster...

[Bobtm]

To start on a positive note;  I like the apparent direction that they've gone in overall.  However, there are a few major issues that hamper anyone trying to play Limbo currently.

Parroting what is the mostly general consensus at the moment, but the changes to Limbo's Banish ability just don't work out at all in any feasible level of play.  As others are noting, at this moment, Limbo's reworked 1 (Banish) has no usability at all.  At the moment one should always use his 4 in pretty much all cases, sometimes in tandem with his 3 if they wish to not keep the Cataclysm up but have multiple foes in the Rift.

As a starting point, I'd propose one of two possible solutions to Banish;

1. Just fully revert its changes.  I know this is a very simple and non-elegant way to go about it, but as the old adage would say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and old Banish worked fine on a conceptual and mechanical level.  We already have both Limbo's new 3, and his 4 as ways to pull multiple targets into the Rift.  There's no real reason to have Banish as an AoE in the first place now, due to the handful of changes this frame has now gotten.  This would, in all honesty, be the best route for Banish despite being the least intriguing.
2. Make Banish work like it did as shown on the Devstream a ways ago.  Wherein the ability always worked whether you were inside of, or out of the Rift.  With the caveat here being that it always pulled its targets into the same plane Limbo was on at the time of casting.  It's rather unnecessary to have it work as an AoE given the points noted before, but if for some reason it's wished to remain as an AoE, this would be the correct solution.

As for his new passive trait for entering and exiting the Rift.  It's mostly great, however it has a few issues that cause some unnecessary hindrances.  In Warframe as a whole, there is a limitation on how the dodge roll command works;  One cannot do more than one dodge roll in mid-air during one instance of being airborne.  This particular game mechanic (which is a normally very fair limitation) leads to causing this unnecessarily clunky feeling on Limbo.  I would personally prefer to see this limitation be removed for Limbo, as it would make his play feel more fluid when one doesn't have to micromanage when they have last dodged.

Limbo's new 3 is a 100% downgrade from its prior state, however it's not a lost cause in this situation.  Were his Banish reverted to its old state (which it, in all honesty, should be) his 3 would open up options for extra control of what is inside or outside of the Rift on a more metered scale.  Where his Cataclysm still holds its weight in the instant option for wide-area Rifting of things.

Reverting Limbo's Banish back to its old version would immediately solve a huge number of issues on its own.  While simultaneously making his 3's purposes much more prevalent and meaningful.  Throw in the ability to dodge roll more than once per time in the air, and the current Limbo's main issues of clunkiness get wiped away fairly well.

As someone who plays Limbo a lot, I'm a bit confused about why Banish was ever changed, as Cataclysm always was the option to put multiple targets into the Rift.  With the changes to his 3 we now have 2 ways to pull multiple foes into the Rift.  As it stands as of this post, there's no reason to leave Banish in its current state.  Its supposed need to be an AoE has been fully obsoleted by the other changes that this frame now has.  Dodging into/out of the Rift is very fluid and enjoyable overall, and Stasis feels utterly outstanding.  I hope that his Banish is reverted so that I can fully enjoy using all of Limbo's abilities once more as I did prior to this rework.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

Banish can now only Banish enemies in the same plane as Limbo. I think the consensus has been that the new mechanic is a massive fail. Every video, post, or opinion that I've seen basically shows everyone only using only Cataclysm and dropping Banish entirely because it's just not even worth using. This mechanic may have seemed like a slight balancing factor in the development stages, but it's not. It's entirely too much of a nerf.

Apparently you also get kicked from Banish upon deactivation of Cataclysm. Is this rework trying to get Limbos one-shot in endurance runs? I guess these moments of exposure are not supposed to be a big deal at all because the new dash animation is "so swift and smooth." Parkour alone can't save you from most enemy attacks in high level content, so that's no good.

There are other annoying things like the fact that he doesn't have a regular combat roll anymore. Rift Surge apparently isn't working the way it's supposed to. I haven't even been able to find out exactly what's going on with this ability now, but the fact that it doesn't have the direct damage buff that it used to leads me not to really care what it does now. The direct damage upgrade was also an incentive to bring enemies into the rift. Now that the incentive has been removed, what reason do we have to use all the new nerfed Rift mechanics? Is it all for the purpose of casting Stasis on them? That hardly seems like enough.

A lot of Limbo mains, including myself, are very unhappy right now. We were a minority that wasn't really impacting much. Then out of nowhere our survivability is nerfed in a way that doesn't make sense. I'm really hoping that DE is open to revising these new mechanics in a more user friendly way. If you are a Limbo main and you're upset about these changes, please post a thread or something. Clearly they aren't going to change anything without feedback.

[MasterControl]

So to everyone complaining, I do have some things you may want to consider.

 

 The roll is so fast and smooth that you can still use it for movement if you so desire. You can even continue to aim while you swap planes.

 Banish is now an AOE. By making it only send enemies to one plane, you can spam it in a crowd without fear of accidentally unbanishing those you have already banished. You COULD perhaps put a Quiver style addition on Banish and have it only banish or unbanish, but people tend to also complain about Quiver style systems being clunky. IF this were to be implemented, it'd have to be tap banish hold swap, which damages fluidity.

 Stasis is NOT an offensive tool. It was created to address the complaint that Limbo has no extra survivability in the rift. About to get hooked by an ancient? Stop time and get out of the way of the hook. Buddy about to go down? Stop time and let him get out of there. It can even be used for that offensive edge by allowing anyone in a cata to easily aim for Banshee's sonar spot very easily, or something similar. I use it to massacre sentients with melee. There has to be some trade off to the hardest possible CC, complete enemy shutdown.

 Rift surge got sidegraded from damage to utility. It's intended as a companion to Cataclysm: Pop down a cata, press 3, remove cata: Bam, you have the entire cata's area worth of enemies now banished and most likely heavily damaged from the implosion of the cata. Especially helpful with the Rift Surge aug: You can catch HUGE numbers of enemies in it, getting up to 800% extra damage in the rift with my build, much like the old Rift Surge. Which also seems to apply to the scaling damage of cata explosions.

 

 

[RobWasHere]

15 hours ago, Rhundis said:

Eh, limbo is still the king of mobile def and rescue.

and sortie defense.

And excavation (Long dur Catabubble the drill, then pause, nothing will touch it. You can pick up cells and carry it into bubble and kill frozen carriers spamming banish on them. Try it, I love that)

[LOKIME]

I actually liked limbo, but this rework broke banish and surge.... the two abilities that worked fine.

[Bobtm]

16 minutes ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

About to get hooked by an ancient? Stop time and get out of the way of the hook. Buddy about to go down? Stop time and let him get out of there.

While I do see where you are going with the post overall, this particular line is glaringly false.  The animation speed on an Ancient's tether shot comes out in under half the time that it takes for Limbo's stasis to come out.  It's fully impossible to reactively evade an Ancient's hook by casting Stasis.  In such cases it is always going to be using a dodge to avoid said shot.

Also as you noted in the final part of your post;  We have lots of ways to pull a lot of targets into the Rift really well.  By proxy Banish has no reason to be an AoE at all.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Bobtm
Nevermind on the falsitude. Natural Talent is a wonderous mod.

[MasterControl]

3 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

While I do see where you are going with the post overall, this particular line is glaringly false.  The animation speed on an Ancient's tether shot comes out in under half the time that it takes for Limbo's stasis to come out.  It's fully impossible to reactively evade an Ancient's hook by casting Stasis.  In such cases it is always going to be using a dodge to avoid said shot.

Also as you noted in the final part of your post;  We have lots of ways to pull a lot of targets into the Rift really well.  By proxy Banish has no reason to be an AoE at all.

The animation is short, but the hook has travel time. Since stasis is capable of stopping projectiles, it will stop a hook in midair. If you're fast enough, it is very possible to stop. Natural talent is a must, however.

I suppose. But people always railed on banish exclusively because it was single-target in a game based in a horde shooter. I assume therefore it was the first change made in an attempt to listen to players.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Mastercontrol98

[Schregger]

IDK, Im still getting use to the Limbo rework. The only fault I see is banish only working on enemies in the same plane. The whole point of banish with Limbo prior was to enter the rift, and pull enemies into rift to take them out without the others being able to affect you. Now, you can banish multiple enemies, but you cant do it while in the rift, which makes the whole point of going into the rift pointless. Yeah, limbo is more powerful in the rift, but you have to first get into the rift, but even before that, you have to banish enemies into the rift. You have to risk death against hordes before actually using Limbo's whole freaking shtick. 

[Frenjo]

I think they realised that rifting with no energy/no duration/cannot be pulled out by a nullifier is OP, so are trying to balance it by gimping the abilities... I mean... Yeah. I just think at this point if banish was back to normal we would have glaring problem no.1 fixed.

[ScorpDK]

Really liking the changes done to Limbo. He went from a slow-as-molasses 1-v-1 frame that (as I gathered from chat ingame) relegated to mostly running through missions without actually interacting with enemies, to this agile void sorcerer that has massive CC potential and can kill or simple keep enemies busy for extended periods of time.

 

If there are things I have to note, it's the following:

• It's more often than not very hard to tell who is banished and who is not, especially when dealing with Corrupted enemies in Relic Runs, because the overlay texture of the banish is white, while the corrupted enemies are a glowing gold-white. You might want to give them a different, more noticeable effect. Because right now, I tend to wildly flail my weapon at enemies I CANNOT affect, not knowing until I try. Maybe make them translucent or something,...? Having the glow color of the Limbo that banished them applied over them would potentially help..
• The Rift Walk distance is a bit hard to manage, especially since you cannot act out of it, you have to wait until the animation fully finishes before you can attack or use an ability, which on higher difficulty easily becomes a problem, due to how easy you can get murdered by high-level enemies. Also, maybe another animation if you do it backwards/sideways while aiming a weapon, with a shorter distance traveled?

Otherwise...I'm pretty happy with the new Limbo.

It could have some adjustments here and there, but he's pretty damn good now.

[Bobtm]

2 minutes ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

The animation is short, but the hook has travel time. Since stasis is capable of stopping projectiles, it will stop a hook in midair. If you're fast enough, it is very possible to stop. Natural talent is a must, however.

Ah that's the kicker there for sure.  With his ability to go into/out of the Rift being far faster than before, I immediately threw Natural Talent off of my builds to open up more options.  That for sure would give you just barely enough time to stop the hook.  I may need to throw the mod back onto one build just for enjoyment's sakes lol.

4 minutes ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

But people always railed on banish exclusively because it was single-target in a game based in a horde shooter. I assume therefore it was the first change made in an attempt to listen to players.

That's the same vibe I get from it too.  It feels like Banish got the first focus, but then with the other changes that came into play later, the incidentally made it so that we never would need an AoE on Banish at all any longer.  The changes are definitely mostly good, though there are the peculiar bits.

[Schregger]

I put this down in another thread about this, so Im just copy and pasting here:

Quote

IDK, Im still getting use to the Limbo rework. The only fault I see is banish only working on enemies in the same plane. The whole point of banish with Limbo prior was to enter the rift, and pull enemies into rift to take them out without the others being able to affect you. Now, you can banish multiple enemies, but you cant do it while in the rift, which makes the whole point of going into the rift pointless. Yeah, limbo is more powerful in the rift, but you have to first get into the rift, but even before that, you have to banish enemies into the rift. You have to risk death against hordes before actually using Limbo's whole freaking shtick.

Now, granted, this did just come out, and Im still getting use to it, so maybe its just a matter of time. But even than, to start anything, well, what I said above...

Edited March 25, 2017 by Schregger
wasnt finished

[Frenjo]

5 minutes ago, ScorpDK said:

Really liking the changes done to Limbo. He went from a slow-as-molasses 1-v-1 frame that (as I gathered from chat ingame) relegated to mostly running through missions without actually interacting with enemies, to this agile void sorcerer that has massive CC potential and can kill or simple keep enemies busy for extended periods of time.

Limbo still consists of me running through missions without interacting with enemies, then the second I decide to interact getting oneshotted by everything at higher levels.

[Rhundis]

17 minutes ago, RobWasHere said:

And excavation (Long dur Catabubble the drill, then pause, nothing will touch it. You can pick up cells and carry it into bubble and kill frozen carriers spamming banish on them. Try it, I love that)

Omg your right.