[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[MobyTheDuck]

The nerf should have been made on rewarding people for keeping enemies inside the Cataclysm, instead of just spamming to open and close it.

More time the enemy stays inside bubble = more damage it deals when it ends, make the % damage scale with power STR => has synergy with stasis and other skills

The first nerf, where it deals more damage if the Cataclysm reaches the smallest size was already going to kill several Limbo spammers, but changing the damage equation to such a limited one just killed all the scaling it had. The damage Cataclysm deals on its own is so pathetic that it cant break resource piles.

Doing average health damage also pretty much makes sure it NEVER scales, as it always will do the same average amount of damage. Doesnt helps that it gets reduced by armor.

Right now, most Limbos will use a high range/duration build to Stasis a big part of the map, annoying pretty much everyone that wants to use guns.

That is, until enough people complain, where DE will break Limbo's arms and throw his broken carcass into the corner, where it will weep until his second rework.

[hukurokuju5]

already an endgame god. wat.jpg

[(PSN)psycofang]

26 minutes ago, Celetille said:

You can line up shots with moving projectiles.

You cant line up shots while you dodge for your life

27 minutes ago, Celetille said:

It's the enemies that are frozen which allow you to line up shots, not the frozen projectiles

Thats literally interchangeable lining up shots requires the bullet to not hit the target but be in a state where it will. Stasis keeping you in complete safety should come with a cost, it benefits you as much as it restricts you. All CC should be like this but it isn't.

28 minutes ago, Celetille said:

You aren't addressing my issue

I am but im also having a ribbing with you but i guess nows a bad time.

29 minutes ago, Celetille said:

Overkill, you waste ammo.

That abundant thing that rains like confetti? Even more redundant witj carrier? Or the dog that magics ammo into its mouth?

 

30 minutes ago, Celetille said:

Underkill, you didnt kill the enemy and they kill you.

Use more bullets, they are everywhere.

31 minutes ago, Celetille said:

There is NO gameplay value from frozen projectiles and looking cool should not be an excuse for pigeon-holing gameplay styles.

Better take that up with DE because they primarily run off of -rule of cool- then balance. Stasis doesnt pigeonhole anything, dont want safety and frozen bullets? Don't use stasis. Do you want safety in the rift? Stasis and deal with the "drawbacks" of having to put your generally overpowered gun to an enemies head and shoot right into the dome.

This is of course me taking into account only mobs at level 60-130. 

 

You want stasis to be all gains and 0 draw backs which is the literal form of over powered mechanics. This is a check to its power.

[Celetille]

Sorry, let me clarify what I was suggesting since it appears you're not getting what I was implying.

Stasis should freeze enemies. That's it. You can shoot them like regular, and they take damage when you shoot them, like regular. The act of lining up perfect headshots requires frozen enemies. You can do that in my scenario because the enemies are frozen. The bullets you shoot are not frozen.

You seem to think that lining up the shot requires the bullet not to hit the enemy. Lining up the shot is the act of aiming. Frozen enemies are not required to aim. Frozen projectiles are not required to aim. Frozen enemies are required to line up perfect headshots. Frozen bullets are not require do line up perfect headshots.

"You cant line up shots while you dodge for your life"

You're not dodging for your life. The enemies are frozen in stasis.

Stasis pigeonholes you into melee gameplay because gunplay is clunky; having to toggle stasis on and off to hurt enemies is clunky. Clunky is not fun.

In my scenario, the only drawback is that the enemies need to be inside the rift with you. If you have a problem with that, that's on you but these are my 2 cents to DE.

I am taking this up with DE, this is the feedback megathread, after all

 

[Music4Therapy]

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Better take that up with DE because they primarily run off of -rule of cool- then balance. Stasis doesnt pigeonhole anything, dont want safety and frozen bullets? Don't use stasis. Do you want safety in the rift? Stasis and deal with the "drawbacks" of having to put your generally overpowered gun to an enemies head and shoot right into the dome.

And that is why I said prior to the Cataclysm nerf he would remain top tier so long as he had access to stasis. He can handle any situation the game throws at him with his current kit, not many frames (if any) can say the same. That said, I don't see Limbo getting any significant changes for a while. DE is now putting their focus into Oberon then it seems they'll be working on Chroma according to some stuff that I read from the Devs.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Sar.K.Asmus]

I'm just wondering DE when you thought about Limbo rework after you implemented the new changes and started testing them, did you played with Limbo in a group even once?

I'm someone who does not like using Melee in Warframe (i'm only using Melee on Stealth frame like Loki and Ash or i'm just throwing the Zenistar disc and equip my primary or secondary again).

So when i play in a group and there is a Limbo with max range who is using Stasis which freezes all of my gunfire (even Redeemer's and Sarpa's which are considered Melees and also Zenistar disc) so that i can't hit any enemy inside the Cataclysm (which is huge) only when Limbo "allows" it or when i waste a lot of ammo to break Stasis.

And now my question to you: What am i supposed to do in that case? (I'm asking you because it was your idea to implement it so i suppose you thought about that issue)

Do i have to leave the mission and look for another group and hope it wouldn't be the same?

Do i have to go to recruit chat and look for a group without Limbo in it?

Do i have to play solo in a co-op game?

Edit:

Is there a reason why Limbo has to annoy his teammates with one of his abilities (inside joke at DE?!)?

Before his rework it was Cataclysm because you couldn't pick up loot inside of Cataclysm and you couldn't carry Energy Cells and Datamasses through Cataclysm and couldn't interact with consoles inside Cataclysm.

With the recent rework you fixed 2/3 of them so that Limbo can't annoy his teammates with Cataclysm as easy as before.

And then you gave him the ability to freeze any gunfire so that he can annoy his teammates with Stasis and force them into Melee combat which renders 2/3 of your equipment useless? And what if you don't take your Melee into a mission? Just your Primary and your Secondary? What are you supposed to do then? Stare at Limbo for the whole mission without doing anything?

Was it on purpose? Because he has to annoy his teammates somehow for whatever reason?

Edited April 21, 2017 by The-Tective

[(PSN)WastedKami]

On 3/24/2017 at 3:11 PM, LonewolfSOC said:

Using Roll for entering and exiting the Rift is kinda rubbish. In this fast-paced game Maneuvers especially Rolling is mandatory.

Me and I bet A LOT of people dont want to enter and exit the rift each time they roll with Limbo.

Tbh you should revisit this idea for the "Rifting"

Maybe make the first press of the trigger the normal roll and twice to void dash?

[Yzjdriel]

18 hours ago, (Xbox One)CarpeNoctem365 said:

So then it should be fixed, right? you have the "because mine's broken yours should be too" mentality

Of course it should be fixed.  I never said it shouldn't be fixed.  All I said was that currently those two don't work, meaning that "limbo is the only one who's powers don't cross the Rift" is simply false, especially given that ALL of his powers cross the Rift.

[Arniox]

On 4/20/2017 at 2:14 PM, taiiat said:

i would concur that one of the adjustments on it's own would be plenty sufficient to make Cataclysm always deal some relevant Damage, but not be Killing much or anything in most circumstances.
and that Cataclysmic Continuum is infact somewhat counter productive considering current functionality of the Ability.

it's very clearly obvious that Cataclysm is supposed to deal some relevant Damage, because it was given a relevant Damage mechanic.
no amount of putting things in politically correct buckets of deciding what Limbo is 'supposed to do' changes that fact.

nothing, considering the exact words were.... "The augment Cataclysmic Continuum is still useless" - no negative reference was made towards the Ability.

Oh. Missed the word augment :P my mistake. Carry on :P

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Qwizical said:

Maybe make the first press of the trigger the normal roll and twice to void dash?

I'm dying for a way to remap Rift Dash off of the roll button. I don't care if I have to replace something like Alt-Fire, but I'd be so much more comfortable using Limbo if I could crouch, roll, and rift dash, and they weren't all the same button. The instinct to use roll for maneuvers has gotten me killed (or at least way fubar'd) / screwed up spy vaults more than once now. 

Honestly, that's the one thing preventing me from using Limbo.

Edited April 21, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[H3RRD0KT0R]

When limbo was released one of the biggest worries was what to do when you're Banished into the rift and don't want to stay there, the solution was easy and it works kinda well (rolling out of the rift), but that's just half of the problem, what to do when the enemies are Banished into the rift and you can't affect them by any means? For that there was no answer.

With stasis things got really worse, now you must also deal with frozen enemies that you can't affect even from the rift... don't take me wrong I think stasis is one of the coolest abilities released in a while, and I honestly don't want to see it crippled due to a feel noisy limbo trolls, but I do think something must be done about it.

A simple idea I have is to use melee to take enemies out of stasis, this wouldn't hurt the bullet time part of the ability, and melee currently doesn't serve any purpose against frozen enemies anyway. I also considered a prompt to take them out of there, but melee just sounds overall easily and more dynamic.

I'd go as far as to say this could be used against Banished enemies in general, so you wouldn't depend on limbo s will or the ability duration.

[Nazrethim]

or, make enemies in Stasis to take damage from melee attacks but don't actually die until time resumes at which point the presumably become this:

[(PSN)psycofang]

8 hours ago, Celetille said:

Stasis should freeze enemies.

It does.

8 hours ago, Celetille said:

You can shoot them like regular, and they take damage when you shoot them, like regular.

So basically you want a CC that completely shuts down the map faster and better than any frame could hope to dream for, Hit more targets in the head than wouldve been possible before doing so AND 0 down sides to doing so? Because thats all im reading and noted as such.

And like i said before thats horrendously over powered.

 

8 hours ago, Celetille said:

Lining up the shot is the act of aiming.

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

but be in a state where it will

I said that too

8 hours ago, Celetille said:

Stasis pigeonholes you into melee gameplay

No not really you still have powers and do not necessarily NEED stasis on at all times.

And from my experiences im not seeing these limbos that lock the whole map or any at all post cata nerf. Ive barely seen any at all on pc as well.

Granted im one guy so sample size - irrelevant- but from how everyone's making it seem so rampant ive yet to come across such a thing on pc or ps4.

8 hours ago, Celetille said:

In my scenario, the only drawback is that the enemies need to be inside the rift with you.

Thats not a draw back. How can that of all things possibly be a draw back? He does that ANYWAY and popping your stasis before hitting cata/banish spam only creates a form of CC that no one else can achieve.

Absolute safety ON TOP of uninterrupted dps. 

And my point is -again- thay what you are asking for is FAR too strong.

Extra; i like how Oberon -an actual dps/support- is getting scaling damage on his 1 but limbo a supposed support character -which i disagree with- apparently shouldnt get.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[BansheePrime]

Stasis has so many damn problems. My favorite is when your bullets are stopped. You can't melee your target. And yet the enemy is unpaused and killing you.

Edited April 21, 2017 by maj.death

[(PSN)psycofang]

7 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

And that is why I said prior to the Cataclysm nerf he would remain top tier so long as he had access to stasis

I never said he wouldnt be.

7 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

He can handle any situation the game throws at him with his current kit, not many frames (if any) can say the same.

Not ANY but most i agree, stasis cata saved more MOT runs than i can count.

7 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

DE is now putting their focus into Oberon then it seems they'll be working on Chroma according to some stuff that I read from the Devs.

I think thosell be more touch ups than true reworks considering whats coming. 

[Luxde]

for a day or two after the rework nullifiers didnt pull you out of the rift but it was hotfixed out     

[Evanescent]

What do you mean melee doesn't serve any purpose against frozen enemies? It's the only way you can damage them in real time when they are frozen. I'd like my melee builds to remain viable, thanks.

[friendofvampires]

You know what I would take? have cataclysm deal no damage, but strip all armor (and shields?). That way it provides a utility, makes it functionally different from his 1, and facilitates his fun-zone that cataclysm is supposed to be.

[malekas]

Here's my issue with the change. They nerfed the scaling damage of Cataclysm so hard, that at this point they might as well remove it all together. It's just extra lines of code that aren't doing anything.

 

And they still need to fix Banish and Rift Surge so they're no terrible.

[malekas]

Just thinking, it's so weird to see a rework that makes a frame significantly more powerful, while also making them worse.

 

Before the rework Limbo would use three out of four abilities on a very regular basis (Cataclysm being the odd man out because it would get you killed). After the rework he has fewer useful abilities than he did before. Now, Limbo will just use Stasis and Cataclysm. Banish is too clunky and dangerous to use, and Rift Surge does nothing. Of course, the Stasis + Cataclysm combo is god tier powerful, so even though he's using fewer abilities he feels more powerful.

 

Before the rework, seeing a Limbo in a pug group wasn't bad, unless the Limbo wanted to be a troll. You wouldn't expect the Limbo to do much, but they wouldn't really get in anyone's way. Now, seeing a Limbo means a lot of people will abort. He's become so much more intrusive to other players that it's frustrating to even try. Stasis making my guns useless, Rift Surge leaving random enemies all over the map banished, Banish accidentally banishing allies because of the AOE, and the leave behind tears from Rift Dash are worse than Grineer electric mines.

 

Limbo is definitely powerful, one of the top 3 solo frames in the game. But instead of making him more team friendly, DE did the total opposite. And he now has fewer useful abilities than he did before.

 

I consider the Limbo rework a failure, but it's the most powerful failure I've ever seen.

[-CM-NineFingers]

14 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

When inside the event, the optical distortion gives me eye fatigue and seeing the event horizon with a bright color gives a sharp contrast that is too much for me. I know some people chose black as a color and then it's hard for me to see where the event horizon is and what has been put in stasis. Just to contrast this, It's very clear with frost and his chilling globe when something has been turned into an ice sculpture.

My other issue, is that I can not shot things outside the event horizon or things on the edge. This is just me being annoyed, because on a Grineer map everything is outside the event shooting at it with few Ai moving inside.  This makes the game-play (for me) feel like a worse version of snow globe.

Edit: I am not ignoring the other points just clarifying why his '4' bothers me.

I agree that cataclysm visuals can be eye tiring. Maybe if they just removed them all and added a sort of glow at your feet with the limbo's energy colour that problem could be eliminated, while giving a clear indicator of when one is in the rift.

About the second issue, I feel having the ability to do interdimensional damage would be way too powerful in this scenario. A reduced damage perhaps could be used, but I feel there's no need to shoot anything outside a long range cataclysm, and on short ones it's easier to get to the edge and shoot anything you want to, and step back if something else enters the bubble. Since the change is costless and instantaneous, I see no actual problem with it. When I play another frame and a limbo pops a bubble it's usually what I do, aim at coming enemies and step out to shoot, back again to reload. Or if it's a long range, there's usually enough enemies for me to shoot inside to care about the coming ones. Carrying twin grakatas or akstilettos also helps with way too big catastasis too.

A good thing also could be to add an enemy indicator like enemy radas gives you, but only in the cataclysm, so you always know if something is in there with you or not.

[(PSN)Tsion]

Honestly, it's what you get when you give people a super effective AOE to clear rooms of enemies.

Cataclysm should be an initial DMG up front and a stronger DoT as things are stuck in it. Timed based damage This would play well with Stasis and keep people from just Spamming the royal heck out of it. The issue with this change of play style is that our community based "META" dictates you kill things fast. So, now you're not the jerk for spamming "Ash like ults" but a waste of squad mates precious time. 

People just need to know that you will never get a perfect solution. Limbo's biggest issue is that aside from being a unique frame his abilities TROLL the team he is on in the right hands. He will never get away from that. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by (PS4)Tsion

[-CM-NineFingers]

1 hour ago, malekas said:

Banish accidentally banishing allies because of the AOE, and the leave behind tears from Rift Dash are worse than Grineer electric mines.

While I don't necesssarily object on the rest, why is enterinf the rift (just roll out) worse than taking damage from a mine that you usually cancel by getting away fast, hence... rolling?

P.S.: If that limbo is using a short range cataclysm, just step out and let him have his part of the fun. If he's using a long range build, whip out some automatic fire and shatter that stasis like nobody's business.

[Pixues]

If only you could blacklist a warframe, so you don't get teamed up with it.

This is what my blacklist would look like:

1. Limbo

 

EDIT: Stasis is annoying. Is there some sort of visual hint to tell you its turned on? One moment you're shooting normally, then its turned on and your penta round is floating in front of you and you detonate it. Awesome. Weird how the penta round is in stasis, but not really. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Pixues

[(PSN)psycofang]

If i could play with a 4x modifier for mob spawns id black list everyone except limbo and octavia.

Maybe Nidus.