[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[RedDirtTrooper]

Post rework Limbo is an amazing frame, he's fun to play and his skills are interesting, and he's maybe the most terrible teammate you can possibly have on a team. Everything about his power set does nothing but inconvenience and confuse other players. For every bit of fun a Limbo on a team is having, his teammates are having four times as much removed. Now they want to nerf the damage component of cataclysm. Does DE even realize that the only time I don't immediately get a sick feeling in my stomach when I see a Limbo on my team is when:

1. I'm farming Kuva and they're using the rift for safety while chasing down Kuva in operator mode.
2. I'm doing a high level/sortie rescue, maybe a sortie defense, and they use basically no powers except banishing the rescue/defense target.
3. They are a nuke build.

Those are it. As it is right now, if I load in to a game and see a Limbo, I at least wait and see if they're going to ruin my whole game before hitting abort mission. Nerfing cataclysm will just make it no decision at all. Load in to game, see Limbo, ABORT! ABORT! ABORT! OMG ALT+F4 BEFORE THEY SEE YOU! Right now, they have one build, just one, that allows them to usefully contribute in any meaningful way without being obnoxious and toxic. I understand, some people don't like watching Limbo nuke everything, but they are the same people who don't like watching anyone nuke anything effectively. You literally are never going to make these people satisfied DE, unless you remove every viable AoE damage skill and weapon in the game. If you nerf the damage component of Limbo, you've just given me more reason to abort out of games as soon as I see one. 

[Tesseract7777]

The way to deal with issues with Limbo and the Rift making things tricky for other players, is not to just make him a one button nuke instead. 

On top of that, all one button nukes are hated by the devs and removed as soon as possible once they realize they are existent. You are going to have to just accept that it is going to be nerfed to not be an effective nuke, sorry. And yes, they will keep nerfing any aoe damage skill that literally just takes one press and no thought and kills everything around you in an instant, because they want the game to be a challenge. You'll have to get used to that too, sorry. 

It seems your real issue is how Rift interacts with other players... perhaps you should make some suggestions on how that could be better streamlined? 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[MasterControl]

The nuke build absolutely has to go, or at least be reworked. As it is now I can do about 40% of a 4 man squad's damage without actually even trying. As in, mostly AFK and just resetting my cata when it goes down. I heard the suggestion that Cataclysm should be made to grow instead of shrink, and keeping everything else intact. That would allow him to still be able to nuke, but would grant bigger payoff from allowing the cata to get bigger and envelope more enemies.

[-CM-NineFingers]

Just now, Chewarette said:

Current stasis prevents everyone else in your team to play. That's a coop game, it has nothing to do here.

Plus, it completely stops everything for a very, very long duration on a very, very big radius. That's insane and completely broken. That's nonsense destroying Tonkor, Mirage/Simulor and TBoltace under the "balance" justification the same day they introduce this bullS#&$.

Aye, that's why it needs to change. The melee option I gave is one of many possibilities. But directly removing it is not even an option. I don't even like it outside of the cc for defenses and interceptions, but removing is never the answer, so unless you have a good suggestion, don't try.

[-CM-NineFingers]

28 minutes ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

The nuke build absolutely has to go, or at least be reworked. As it is now I can do about 40% of a 4 man squad's damage without actually even trying. As in, mostly AFK and just resetting my cata when it goes down. I heard the suggestion that Cataclysm should be made to grow instead of shrink, and keeping everything else intact. That would allow him to still be able to nuke, but would grant bigger payoff from allowing the cata to get bigger and envelope more enemies.

people is even more salty about stasis, tho. Trust me, I know.

[-CM-NineFingers]

36 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

Post rework Limbo is an amazing frame, he's fun to play and his skills are interesting, and he's maybe the most terrible teammate you can possibly have on a team. Everything about his power set does nothing but inconvenience and confuse other players.

 

Congratulations, you don't understand how the rift works and the benefits of it. Try learning them, or keep whining, that's the two options.

[pavlo555]

3 minutes ago, -CM-Limbo said:

people is even more salty about stasis, tho. Trust me, I know.

Stasis is at least anyhow interactive, Cataclysm bullS#&$ damage is not in any way.

[-CM-NineFingers]

13 minutes ago, pavlo555 said:

Stasis is at least anyhow interactive, Cataclysm bullS#&$ damage is not in any way.

aye, but now everyone knows it's going to get fixed, while stasis don't let them shoot their godly guns in a completely safe, free energy regenerating bubble of still enemies to get killed with melee or abilities.

[DVNC]

This has probably already been suggested in some form or another— but since cataclysm is getting changed soon (presumably removing the scaling aspect), I'd suggest it gain a knockdown or at least a chance of knockdown. It already stumbles enemies; it's more unlikely that none of them would fall down ever than some of them some of the time.

[(PSN)psycofang]

Even if cata gets fixed and not beaten to death with a bloody spiked bat ppl will still whine about limbo.

 

He can banish mobs

Cant shoot my op crowd wiper now i gotta melee in an entirely safe environment

He can rift walk and never die

He can banish me and rolling is hard

 

Etc.

[Gurpgork]

I ended up coming out of hibernation to try out this rework, and here are my thoughts on it. 

The changes are fantastic from purely an "uplifting Limbo" standpoint. He used to be a "divide and conquer" class that had mediocre "divide" and utterly no "conquer." The introduction of Stasis gives him the CC that he desperately needed. 

With that being said, however, I think Stasis, as well as the insane nuke potential of Cataclysm, are waaaayyyyyyyy overkill. Don't get me wrong, Stasis is a very welcome addition, but in its current state, it kinda reminds me of pre-nerf Prism in a few ways. It's incredibly long lasting hard crowd control that lets Range + Duration builds to lock down entire tilesets for an unreasonably long time. 

And this kind of thing has been going on since long before I took my 8-month hiatus. Every rework since Frost/Excalibur (I forget which came first) has solved the problems of a Warframe's by giving them either crazy-&#! damage scaling, or an ungodly amount of crowd control. Sometimes even both. 

I understand the desire for scalability. But if players can fight literally any level of enemy while retaining most, if not all, of their power, then doesn't that completely defeat the purpose of having enemy scaling in the first place?

To reiterate, the Limbo rework has some brilliant ideas. Limbo desperately needed some form of CC and offense. But I think what he got is way too much, and it's kinda telling to me that enemy scaling is at least as massive of a problem as it was before I left. 

[Death_Master_]

3 hours ago, Ordosan said:

.its to prevent perma-rift limbo..

Why prevent normal behavior? Perma-rift is as natural for Limbo as perma-invis for Ivara or perma-ironskin for Rhino. It is a way to survive and be useful. 

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

On 15/04/2017 at 5:23 AM, NeonNemesis said:

IMO what DE should do is instead of a flat out nerf or removal of the damage of Cataclysm colapse it should deal the % damage with a build up with damage dealt inside cataclysm.

In other words you cast cataclysm, people fight inside it and when you colapse it deals damage based on all the damage dealt inside of it. If damage dealt inside it reached a certain amount it will keep dealing the % damage. Kinda like how you have to build damage on miasma.

This would solve the spam, Limbo would still scale well and would also make you use his kit rather than spam 1 skill.

+1

 

[RedDirtTrooper]

5 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

Congratulations, you don't understand how the rift works and the benefits of it. Try learning them, or keep whining, that's the two options.

You are entirely incorrect, and I find your comment offensive. This forum exists for feedback, so kindly take your judgmental comments about whining and your false assumptions and keep them to yourself.  I've been playing this game since the summer of 2013. I understand the rift perfectly well and I still routinely find myself firing at things that are in the rift while I'm out of it, out of the rift while I'm in it, in the rift with me but suddenly in stasis. I understand exactly what is going on, and I respond accordingly, pick a different target, roll out of the rift, melee the stasis target, whatever. But it doesn't ever stop being absolutely, obnoxiously annoying. I never find myself in side a stasis cataclysm and think "YAY!". No, I sigh. Find myself suddenly banished, sigh. Find the enemies I'm engaging banished, sigh. It's annoying for someone who knows exactly what's going on, so it must be a full blown nightmare for players who don't. All for what benefits? CC? Sure, with the massive cost of being unable to use 2/3rds of my weapons. I could bring any other CC frame instead and still use my guns. Energy Regen? I have Zenurik and pizza. Energy management is something I have already planned for ahead of time making the additional rift regen redundant. Not a single one of the "benefits" a Limbo offers is worth the annoyance of playing with one, but you don't have any rebuttal for that, or you wouldn't have resorted to saying I "don't understand how the rift works and the benefits of it" or calling my feedback whining.

[RedDirtTrooper]

6 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

The way to deal with issues with Limbo and the Rift making things tricky for other players, is not to just make him a one button nuke instead. 

On top of that, all one button nukes are hated by the devs and removed as soon as possible once they realize they are existent. You are going to have to just accept that it is going to be nerfed to not be an effective nuke, sorry. And yes, they will keep nerfing any aoe damage skill that literally just takes one press and no thought and kills everything around you in an instant, because they want the game to be a challenge. You'll have to get used to that too, sorry. 

It seems your real issue is how Rift interacts with other players... perhaps you should make some suggestions on how that could be better streamlined? 

Yes and no, my issue is with the idea of them taking away cataclysms nuking ability without giving Limbo any other team friendly role. If they can fix how awful Limbo currently is to be teamed up with, then eliminating the nuke aspect won't matter at all. As to how to make that happen? One thing that would help is to allow the border of cataclysm to be shot in to and out of. If players and enemies can walk in to and out of it, then so should everything else. Also, make enemies inside the rift much more, or much less visible. This slight highlight reliant on Limbo's energy color just doesn't cut it in the heat of a fire fight. It's the same problem that pops up with Nekros and his unaugmented shadows of the dead, or Nyx and her mind control targets. Players will routinely shoot all of these and only realize their mistake when it doesn't work as expected. Tether's help, I don't see nearly as many people dumping fire in to augmented Nekros summons with the tether, Nidus the same thing. Those tethers instantly let other players know something is up. Limbo needs something like that, or maybe a more intense effect of some kind. A whole lot of the worst aspects of Limbo's design could be addressed if players could just RELIABLY tell if they and/or their target are in the rift or not at all times. With all the other effects in the game at any given time it's just not intuitive enough right now. 

[(PSN)psycofang]

Do ppl just forget you can use your powers as they hit on both sides of the rift?

 

[Chewarette]

12 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Cant shoot my op crowd wiper now i gotta melee in an entirely safe environment

If I want to "melee in an entirely safe environment", I will switch to Naramon for exactly the same benefit. Oh wait, with Naramon I could even use my primary and secondary weapons if I ever want to (you know, if you need different elements combination for example).

Limbo forces you unto a certain gamestyle (you love your Primary ?? Well go fck yourself I don't want you to use it, just go melee scrub), and that's bad. I don't understand how you can't get it.

Edit : Shall I add that it's slightly more fun to play against moving enemies than a 80-meter wide manikin forest ?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Chewarette

[DEATHLOK]

The tone of this thread has taken a turn with the arrival of a small army of white knights, probably the same ones dancing around the fires built for Tonkor the other week.

The previous version of Limbo was plenty powerful for those who figured him out. This version intendeds to be the center of Warframe.

We can do without the white knight bullies baiting anyone who complains about the OP design. But then the "rules" don't apply to them, do they?

To date, DE often responds to bad designs with a Nerf hammer that renders the frame or weapon useless. I fear their intended "fix" will just leave Limbo worse off than ever, with a "maybe we will revisit the frame at a later date" brush-off.

This mess calls for a return to zero and highlights the need for more QA.

I don't have an issue with AoE frames in general, as most are effective at only low levels of game play. What irritates me about Limbo are Stasis and being popped in and out of the Rift by a player spamming combinations of the 4 key. No other frame affects other players thus, and this is something that should have been caught in testing, if ever there was any testing.

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

4 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Limbo forces you unto a certain gamestyle

 

Like Frost regularly destroys my ability to do damage because they all like making manakin forests made of ice

Or make my zarr useless/dangerous to use because they love popping bubbles everywhere, sincr powers work on both ends of the rift i cannot use cataclysm out of fear of Zarr/Kulstar/Ogris killing me because of the bubble spam and the mobs are still running free.

But rather than whine i just deal with the frost players intruding on my gameplay.

 

4 hours ago, Chewarette said:

I will switch to Naramon for exactly the same benefit

Naramon doesnt stop a stray bullet from dropping you.

 

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

The tone of this thread has taken a turn with the arrival of a small army of white knights, probably the same ones dancing around the fires built for Tonkor the other week.

Dont build up an enemy you have no proof exists.

4 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Edit : Shall I add that it's slightly more fun to play against moving enemies than a 80-meter wide manikin forest ?

Yet people are totally fine with frost freezing the field, vauban locking down the map to where nothing can fight back, Banshee stun locking the map and nothing can fight back, radial disarm gas lokis, ivara camping and mowing down everything and so on.

 

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

The previous version of Limbo was plenty powerful for those who figured him out.

And suffered numerous glaring problems for the ones who did learn to understand him, community constantly whining about his powers long before rework and the fact that letting more mobs in sans a well placed long range cata on an approaching group would otherwise get you quickly killed.

 

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

We can do without the white knight bullies baiting anyone who complains about the OP design. But then the "rules" don't apply to them, do they?

Do you have proof of this contradiction or are you just saying this with 0 evidence?

 

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

To date, DE often responds to bad designs with a Nerf hammer that renders the frame or weapon useless. I fear their intended "fix" will just leave Limbo worse off than ever

And some people are literally calling for them to do thatl and/or make him worse so people stop using him.

 

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

This mess calls for a return to zero and highlights the need for more QA.

They cant return to 0 because roll backs also cost money, theyd have to pay 2x the amount due to a faulty and soon to be nerfed rework to instantly roll back a bad idea.

Theres no call for anything as they are just going to hit him with the bat and call it.  He will never be team friendly because hes built around a system that other players just dont like/refuse to like/ dont understand or refuse to understand.

 

People almost NEVER mention that they try to use their powers on rifted targets, because they probably dont, which most dps frames can kill between the rift. 

3 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

No other frame affects other players thus, and this is something that should have been caught in testing, if ever there was any testing.

Even after hes -fixed- hes still going to do this, even before he was fixed he did this for 1 reason or another and regardless of a player knowing the real reason they hated him regardless.

 

There are no white knights defending his 4 spam, most want it nerfed or changed mechanically so that its still there but more situational or organic.  Theres no bully here as far as ive read and tonkor nerfs have nothing to do with the topic and havent been mentioned.

[Chewarette]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

1- Like Frost regularly destroys my ability to do damage because they all like making manakin forests made of ice

Or make my zarr useless/dangerous to use because they love popping bubbles everywhere, sincr powers work on both ends of the rift i cannot use cataclysm out of fear of Zarr/Kulstar/Ogris killing me because of the bubble spam and the mobs are still running free.

But rather than whine i just deal with the frost players intruding on my gameplay.

2- Naramon doesnt stop a stray bullet from dropping you.

3- Yet people are totally fine with frost freezing the field, vauban locking down the map to where nothing can fight back, Banshee stun locking the map and nothing can fight back, radial disarm gas lokis, ivara camping and mowing down everything and so on.

1- Frost breaking the LoS can be avoided by simply finding another angle / moving around. Second, Frost's freeze can't last more than 50 seconds, you know. 2 seconds at most. Third, I didn't play Frost since a long time but I think the number of bubbles are limited anyway.

2- Yeah, there are so many enemies that love to shoot at nothing

3- Bastille has a limitation on the amount of enemies locked. Banshee is completely annoying, I agree with you, but at least it's a huge energy sink and she cannot maintain this for hours. Plus, Quake doesn't prevent you to shoot at enemies.

I see you find the Stasis completely fine (and you justify it the same way a 6-year old justifies the fact he steals stuff : he's not the first and only to do that >:( ), that's the major problem with Warframe right now.

Stasis is NOT fine. Stasis is a huge mass-crowd control with no limitation, ridiculous energy cost, preventing your allies to play. Okay we got it, you can achieve the same thing with Repelling Bastilles and Trinity for intense Bastilles Spam all around the planet, but guess what ? That doesn't make Stasis more acceptable.

[Mousarchy]

15 hours ago, Death_Master_ said:

Why prevent normal behavior? Perma-rift is as natural for Limbo as perma-invis for Ivara or perma-ironskin for Rhino. It is a way to survive and be useful. 

yes but ivara can still get hit by stray shots and AOE and rhino can lose iron skin. limbo in the rift for ever was no. you couldnt die,you never took dmg. and you would just banish a single target and use a finisher before he recovered for the rift change. hence why they changed it were you have a reason to come out of the rift now.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Frost's freeze can't last more than 50 seconds, you know. 2 seconds at most. Third, I didn't play Frost since a long time but I think the number of bubbles are limited anyway.

minus the fact that they love to make them huge, spam them in places that dont need it, spam his 4 every chance they get its 50s x every time they hit 4, its 4 bubble limitiation...4 large as hell bubbles that they can replace anywhere for whatever reason. im usually locked out of using my cannon because the bubbles almost too regularly interlace causing walls to be a guessing game and god help me if theres 2.

 

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

eah, there are so many enemies that love to shoot at nothing

theres 3 other people in your party and not everyone runs naramon

 

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Bastille has a limitation on the amount of enemies locked.

theres no limitation to the number of bastille that can be thrown which again locks down the entire map to the point its a fish-barrel festival now with more fun lights!

Vortex mashing is just as terrible and an augment that makes it last 240s plus

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Banshee is completely annoying, I agree with you, but at least it's a huge energy sink and she cannot maintain this for hours. Plus, Quake doesn't prevent you to shoot at enemies.

the point was its not fun shooting at manakins and yet everyone -generalizing- goes out of their way to make it so its like that. Also non resonant quake banshee can keep it up for quite a while, energy pizzas exist unfortunately

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

I see you find the Stasis completely fine

no i even made a fix a few pages back, 80% slow, doesnt effect bullets, limbo gets DR tethers akin to necros, i say its balanced because its a powerful CC, and the only CC, that locks you out of using your guns unless you purposefully overload stasis, which anyone can do btw,  to shut it off. Most other frames CC is just as good and doesnt have such a restriction. Now i said its balanced not that it wasnt a problem.

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

and you justify it the same way a 6-year old justifies the fact he steals stuff : he's not the first and only to do that

then you resort to insults due to a lack of decency... dont worry i expect this from the internet. Regardless the point was you say its not fun shooting at manakins yet the community at large does exactly what you say is a problem with various warframes. This forum is not a voice for the majority but a minority who thinks they matter more than the rest who generally dont seem to care or mind. The thing vie noticed with this community is that you all - generalizing- get it in your heads that youre something special when your not, call for the most insane things when something disrupts you ,rather than let the devs know and admit on stream that its getting fixed, scream that youll leave the game like anyone cares.

 

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Stasis is NOT fine

yeah i said this a few pages back thanks for re iterating?

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Stasis is a huge mass-crowd control with no limitation,

except you cant use guns unless you forcibly overload it which is a limitation and its only as far as cataclysm stretches unless they torrent before it shrinks too far

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

preventing your allies to play

you can still use your over turned damage dealing powers which hit on both ends of the rift, you cans till use your broken AF gas/corrosive melee weapons

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Okay we got it, you can achieve the same thing with Repelling Bastilles

no just bastille, repelling is a bonus, infinite vortex aug too to just shut the game down entirely and no trinity needed ever.

 

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

That doesn't make Stasis more acceptable.

 want you to find where i said stasis wasnt a problem? iirc i even voiced a fix for it. i said its not worth all the drama everyones blowing it up to be and has work arounds but everyone is acting like they just cannot do ANYTHING which is wrong, if im with a limbo that loves to abuse stasis guess what i do? Zarr and shut it off entirely, cant shut off Frosts BS, can turn off his globes, cant turn off banshee, cant stop Zephyr whilwind mashers, cant stop vortex/bastlee map locking cant stop anything but you CAN stop limbos stasis. They cant stop me either since they have to leave rift portals to enter and exit the rift. 

If they dont use portals than they are about to use cataclysm which makes my job of shutting it off, if they are trolling/being bad with it, easier.

 

oh i was wrong btw it was in another THREAD woopsy

 

On 4/11/2017 at 7:48 PM, (PS4)psycofang said:

Its currently not that broken considering its massive drawback.

 

Were i to "fix" stasis it would be an 50-70% slow down field-channeled EN/S theoretical of 5 or so en/s- and Limbo would gain a damage mitigation tether -range not included- for every enemy up to 9 in the rift for necros type DR.

Surge would either multiply damage the enemy takes and keeps its radial banish or the team gets faster firing/swing/reload speed inside a surged cataclysm.

 

No more bullet stop, everyone gets boosts, enemies still have a chance to 1 shot you and ppl won't whine (as much).

 

Then again it wont be called stasis anymore either.

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[nameomnz]

I agree that stasis need some change.

If Stasis got change from mega-croud control to kill to control, I would call it perfect,

Right now we can use limbo without being a pain, Only in SOLO and PUG.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I'd bet that in PUGs Limbo is a pain, it's just that nobody wants to get into an argument with some rando about Limbo being a pain.

The bottom line appears to be that DE doubled down on Limbo's ability to interfere with established in-game feedback systems (e.g., interacting with things, moving, using weapons and receiving expected feedback from said use). For players who have ingrained muscle memory and tactics and so forth about how best to use their chosen frame, playing with a Limbo means you can suddenly and unpredictably find you have to change those learned reflexes.

Edited April 17, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

"This forum is not a voice for the majority but a minority who thinks they matter more than the rest who generally dont seem to care or mind."

Truth. But this is for every forum to be honest. Companies feel I guess if people care enough to complain as much as they do they should change what's complained about even if it makes no sense. Ah, the internet.