Will continuous weapons' status chance ever be fixed?

[Sebastianx]

DE, when will the status chances of continuous weapons be fixed? We all know they need some love for a long time now because having let's say 15% status chance PER SECOND is so horrible that you might as well not have status chance, and just straight up buff their other stats. Please change all beam/continuous weapons so that they detect hits based on their attack speed. Synapse for example has a fire rate of 10/s, make it so that it detects for hits 10 times per second, that way its 10% status chance will have a chance to apply 10 times per second, not once per second as it does now for all beam weapons.

Beam weapons are my favorite but you kept nerfing them over the years to the point where they just feel clumsy with that horrid hit detecting rate and status chance.

[Madway7]

There's also the issue of shotgun status/pellet, while not directly related to this, we do have 2 shotguns that are also beam weapons (Phage and Convectrix) and this issue makes them extremely unreliable with status 

[DrBorris]

They just need t multiply the "tick" rate of beam weapons by like five or six times, if not more. It was when DE reduced the rate at which beam weapons did damage (this was done so you could more easily see how much damage you were doing as opposed to seeing hundreds of tiny numbers in one frame) that beam weapons fell out of the meta, Synapse used to be an equivalent to Soma.

[Skaleek]

Yeah beam weapons used to be awesome. Not sure why the changes were introduced. Performance issues if I recall correctly? Damn shame. Status/second makes sense though, how else would you do it on a beam weapon? They should just buff the $%^&* out of the status/sec on all beam weapons so you can achieve like 4/5 status procs per second. That way you can compete with some of these ridiculous status inflicting weapons like strun W. My Strun riven gives it 180 multishot and 130 status, so i think i get something around 32~ pellets and each one procs a status. No beam weapon can ever compete with that, it would take 30 seconds at 100% status/sec just to be equal.

Although damage wise the amprex and atomos are still rather competitive so there's that. Mostly thanks to their arcing aoe component.

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Performance issues if I recall correctly?

that was the official - but ofcourse that was the biggest load of ballocks i've ever seen - Void Beam, Guns with Rate of Fire Mods, Et Cetera can send as many if not more damage instances than Continuous Weapons so by that idiotic logic all of our Weapons cause 'performance problems' and they all need to have their Rate of Fire limited to once per second.

[Skaleek]

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

that was the official - but ofcourse that was the biggest load of ballocks i've ever seen - Void Beam, Guns with Rate of Fire Mods, Et Cetera can send as many if not more damage instances than Continuous Weapons so by that idiotic logic all of our Weapons cause 'performance problems' and they all need to have their Rate of Fire limited to once per second.

Fair points. I don't always buy what DE sells either, i still think the database riven limit is complete bs, but eh whatever.

[Sebastianx]

3 hours ago, Madway7 said:

There's also the issue of shotgun status/pellet, while not directly related to this, we do have 2 shotguns that are also beam weapons (Phage and Convectrix) and this issue makes them extremely unreliable with status 

Of course those are included as well, I'm talking about every beam weapon that has status written as status/sec.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

that was the official - but ofcourse that was the biggest load of ballocks i've ever seen

Just a little clarification, but way back I was one of the few players who suffered from severe performance issues whenever I used the Ignis, and after they nerfed the tickrate into the ground I was able to use them without lagging myself out every damn time. The bug existed for upwards of half a year IIRC, and even though I never had problems with any other beam weapons during that time(not sure if there were any around) whenever I used the Ignis as a client in missions that lasted a little longer I'd end up tanking my framerate and cause myself horrible lag to the point of me loosing connection to the host and getting pushed into my own instance where everything worked fine. Unless I was hosting other people. When that happened and I used the Ignis I always lagged other people out consistently.

Here's a video I took of a defense  run with me being a client with the Ignis. In the first 10 waves not much happens but around wave 11 the lag spikes start turning the game into a ghosting simulator, and shortly after my fps went down to about 3. Now that I'm watching it again those lag spikes actually remind me a lot about the horrendous lag spores would cause. Anyway, I'm not saying that the nerf was needed or that DE shouldn't try to remedy the situation. This is just to let people know that DE didn't lie.
 

Spoiler

Using Kunai for about 10 waves to get a baseline performance:

Lag spikes grow exponentially after I started using the Ignis:

 

Framerate starts tanking:

 

Eventual Host Migration, after which the lag's gone.:

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by AuroraSonicBoom

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Increasing the damage/status per tick would solve the issue of performance for some PCs while making the weapons better right?

[Sebastianx]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Increasing the damage/status per tick would solve the issue of performance for some PCs while making the weapons better right?

The weapons would still suffer from horrible hit detection and even with 100% status chance by default, if it procs once per second it gets overshadowed by weapons that can proc status multiple times per second and in an AoE. The most satisfying change is simply to increase the tick rate to that of the weapons fire rate.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

considering how long it's taken them to rework things like Limbo and Snipers, I wouldn't expect changes any time soon.

[Miser_able]

@AuroraSonicBoom. Oh god I remember those days. When ever I used my beam weapons on defenses I would lose around 1 fps per wave. At least until around wave 60,where it would crash altogether. 

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Just a little clarification

again... if that was a problem, then someone firing an Assault Rifle at a very high Rate of Fire at an Enemy would have blown up your Framerate just the same.

my reasoning that it's a load of crap, is because creating the same type of situation with 'normal' Weapons isn't hard to do and is very common.
a perfect example should be... switching Modes, and using Void Laser. if it isn't a load of crap, then that should cause the same problems considering it sends Damage Packets just like Continuous Weapons used to - dozens per second (infact i'd be hard pressed to call it anything but an old Continuous Weapon).

Edited April 8, 2017 by taiiat

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

again... if that was a problem, then someone firing an Assault Rifle at a very high Rate of Fire at an Enemy would have blown up your Framerate just the same.

my reasoning that it's a load of crap, is because creating the same type of situation with 'normal' Weapons isn't hard to do and is very common.
a perfect example should be... switching Modes, and using Void Laser. if it isn't a load of crap, then that should cause the same problems considering it sends Damage Packets just like Continuous Weapons used to - dozens per second (infact i'd be hard pressed to call it anything but an old Continuous Weapon).

Again, that wasn't the point I tried to make. All I said was that DE didn't lie about there having been a problem, and that's still the case regardless of how they chose to handle it.

[Sebastianx]

5 hours ago, Miser_able said:

@AuroraSonicBoom. Oh god I remember those days. When ever I used my beam weapons on defenses I would lose around 1 fps per wave. At least until around wave 60,where it would crash altogether. 

The thing is that they recently figured Physx was causing the memory leak when massive amounts of particles would gather up, and that's exactly what old beam weapons used to do which would cause a slow memory leak meaning those with low amounts of RAM or VRAM would lose FPS constantly. Now that they sorted that one out, I believe they can give beam weapons another chance.

[Miser_able]

20 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

The thing is that they recently figured Physx was causing the memory leak when massive amounts of particles would gather up, and that's exactly what old beam weapons used to do which would cause a slow memory leak meaning those with low amounts of RAM or VRAM would lose FPS constantly. Now that they sorted that one out, I believe they can give beam weapons another chance.

Now that I think about it, I had physx back then and once I had to get a computer that could no longer use them the problem stopped. 

Who knows, with the memory leaks being fixed they could give another crack at it. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Miser_able

[taiiat]

25 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

and that's exactly what old beam weapons used to do which would cause a slow memory leak meaning those with low amounts of RAM or VRAM would lose FPS constantly. Now that they sorted that one out, I believe they can give beam weapons another chance.

the problem was attributed to Damage Number Packets, though.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

21 hours ago, Sebastianx said:

The weapons would still suffer from horrible hit detection and even with 100% status chance by default, if it procs once per second it gets overshadowed by weapons that can proc status multiple times per second and in an AoE. The most satisfying change is simply to increase the tick rate to that of the weapons fire rate.

Yeah I miss my old Quanta Vandal. It wasnt OP but could perform just right.

Now you have to stand in front of the enemy while shooting for seconds...

[Fallen_Echo]

They need to do something about that, really. Status is a bad joke on them currently.

[Djego27]

 

On 7.4.2017 at 8:42 PM, Sebastianx said:

The weapons would still suffer from horrible hit detection and even with 100% status chance by default, if it procs once per second it gets overshadowed by weapons that can proc status multiple times per second and in an AoE. The most satisfying change is simply to increase the tick rate to that of the weapons fire rate.

It would be most likely easier to reduce the fire rate of a weapon to the tick rate and let multishot/fire rate mods not create more shots but simply buff damage/status on the existent ones. Status should be converted to status per tick(what would work like fire rate) and would be more in line how it works for example on a assault rifle, where 10 shots per second with 10% status also means 100% status at base.

 

On 7.4.2017 at 4:02 PM, Madway7 said:

There's also the issue of shotgun status/pellet, while not directly related to this, we do have 2 shotguns that are also beam weapons (Phage and Convectrix) and this issue makes them extremely unreliable with status 

Agreed, even if I would not call shotguns as reliable with status outside of status shotguns(akbronko, boar prime, strun wraith, Tigris prime, Kohm if you really want to) and the only ones that kind of work with under 100% are the fast reload/fire rate ones(mara detron, kohm, Twin komak komak). But then again status on shotguns should also be changed to pellet because it is kind of ironic that it is actual a bug that does add this and does work far more balanced then just giving your shotguns 50k damage per shot, because it does not liberate anything on the star map in a single pellet. It just happens to scale well, what does not create map clearing weapons at low levels and weapons that are not flawless(range, ammo use, spread, longer reloads) but still are actually quite competitive at high levels.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Djego27

[Djego27]

On 8.4.2017 at 2:09 AM, taiiat said:

again... if that was a problem, then someone firing an Assault Rifle at a very high Rate of Fire at an Enemy would have blown up your Framerate just the same.

my reasoning that it's a load of crap, is because creating the same type of situation with 'normal' Weapons isn't hard to do and is very common.
a perfect example should be... switching Modes, and using Void Laser. if it isn't a load of crap, then that should cause the same problems considering it sends Damage Packets just like Continuous Weapons used to - dozens per second (infact i'd be hard pressed to call it anything but an old Continuous Weapon).

Well to be fair most assault rifles are hit scan and even more so come with 0 spread, what is not hard to calculate if you hit or not, since it is only done once(every 100ms if we go with the 10 rounds per second) and another client only have to tell yours that the player did fire the gun, to play a firing sound, a animation and reduce the HP of a unit if it was hit. While I am not sure about it since I do not know the code, void laser hit detection is most likely not communicated during the session, only if it damages units/players, since it is for the most part a static object. 

On a side note the Kohm with the bounce mechanic and simulated pellets with travel time did create very real lag, used with a lot of fire rate on mirrage even so much that you could crash the game and it is all gone since it became hit scan, because you no longer need the communication of the data for pellets mid air that prolonged her stay on the field by her bounce mechanic. 

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Well to be fair most assault rifles are hit scan and even more so come with 0 spread, what is not hard to calculate if you hit or not, since it is only done once(every 100ms if we go with the 10 rounds per second) and another client only have to tell yours that the player did fire the gun, to play a firing sound, a animation and reduce the HP of a unit if it was hit. While I am not sure about it since I do not know the code, void laser hit detection is most likely not communicated during the session, only if it damages units/players, since it is for the most part a static object. 

On a side note the Kohm with the bounce mechanic and simulated pellets with travel time did create very real lag, used with a lot of fire rate on mirrage even so much that you could crash the game and it is all gone since it became hit scan, because you no longer need the communication of the data for pellets mid air that prolonged her stay on the field by her bounce mechanic. 

the good case example would be like, a Grakata with extra RoF firing into a Vortex/Larva full of Enemies.
would be the same thing if that's true.

Kohm created perf issues for machines due to the Projectiles it fired (supposedly, that was a problem but Drakgoon isn't somehow(which if that's the case why not give Kohm Drakgoon projectiles if those Projectiles are lower load) which is another type of nonsense), not for networking concerns.

Continuous Weapons aren't Projectile Weapons, and are nearly identical (in function) to Ray Trace Weapons.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by taiiat

[Djego27]

Well the issue is most likely with the amount of the projectiles, if you compare Kohm to Drakgoon. The point that lag highly increased with mirage using the weapon also points into that direction, since it simply creates more projectiles.

[Sebastianx]

On 4/10/2017 at 7:31 PM, Djego27 said:

Well the issue is most likely with the amount of the projectiles, if you compare Kohm to Drakgoon. The point that lag highly increased with mirage using the weapon also points into that direction, since it simply creates more projectiles.

(sorry for the late reply, had no connection for a week) Yes but the fire rate of beam weapons is not high enough to justify that. Use Twin Viper with multishot and all fire rate mods, you'll get to 80 rounds/second. Use Mirage and the game still won't lag. The physics of Kohm/Drakgoon made the lag. Beam weapons don't have physics, and they don't even have that big of a fire rate to begin with. I see no reason why DE wouldn't change beam weapons as they used to be now that they fixed the problems with Physx.

[Djego27]

Well I think it is mostly like taiiat pointed out that how it is calculated under the hood of warframe makes them a issue to lag what might be different to how we experience them to work. The main difference between a hit scan weapon and one that is not is that everything you see from the first one, starting with the weapon firing animation, the projectile and the impact is decided before your eye can actually see it. It is basically just a simulation to you, because the main ingame function happens instantly without any real projectile attached to it that would require vector based calculation of where it goes, what it hits and how it bounces off objects during the hole life cycle of the projectile, what is zero for a hit scan weapon.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Djego27