Oberon Rework discussion and feedback (including feedback post prime time #161)

[xPhantomStranga]

1 minute ago, Talvu said:

what to make up for the fact that you're too stupid or too lazy to understand the fundamental limitations of abilities of a frame?

Insults? Really? Well that convo is dead now thanks.

[Talvu]

your welcome have a nice day

[xPhantomStranga]

5 minutes ago, Talvu said:

your welcome have a nice day

You're**

[Talvu]

yes well at least I'm honest about it

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

my overall thoughts on the rework:

his 1: good, it wont compete with powers like mallet and the such, but as a first it is a strong addition due to its scaling damage

his 2: meh, needs to be a circle, not a cone. and the aoe just be effected by stretch. range needs an increase by 50% and a duration increase by 25%

his 3: ok, the waves need to be faster, have it effected by range if the wave its self is effected by duration and it NEEDS to remain active passively, have it not use energy while not healing. this will make the augment reasonably usefull (ps, halve the cool down of the augment) as well as make it deal a radiation proc, doesn't need to deal damage.

his 4: hmmm, its basically the same as before (by itself) 

 

his synergies: 2-3: im glad it has its own duration and a flat armor value, but the value itself needs to be effected by power strength

2-4: its alright, as long as it deals off of original percentages i.e. before cp and is percentage based itself or strips base armor, it should be OK....

in general his passive will be strong and much welcomed if you use either of the kavats. more crits more often on the adarza or more jackpots on the smeeta

 

my personal ideas/addons for the rework-

1-4: enemies under the effects of his 4th, when hit with his 1 will have additional damage multiplier to his 1

1-2: enemies that are hit by his 1 while on his 2 will have a percentage of there base armor removed

3-4: activating 3 then 4 auto rolls out the wave to max range or doubles the speed

2-3-4: activating his 2 then using his 4 with enemies on it will remove the enemy armor, THEN activating his 3 will steal a percentage of each enemies total armor value removed by his 4. there will be a five second window after his 4 is casted and is NOT effected by duration

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

if the don't synergize more it wont go far enough

Edited April 21, 2017 by (PS4)TwilightGrim

[Talvu]

Eh the only problems I would say that Oberon has is that his hollowed ground should be the same radius as his reckoning, and should give a numerical armor bonus. And if you were to do anything with renewal then it would be to make the orbs speed scale off of power range. Those two changes would be a lot better than trying to make all of his abilities try and synergize off one another.

[chainchompguy3]

4 minutes ago, Talvu said:

well yes of course you would argue that, and I would argue that you're too narrow minded in your approach to frames. Loki is well know for his invisibility yes, but he's also known for his irradiated disarm and even some know how to use his decoy and switch teleport. Or lets take Saryn, spores are one aspect, but miasma, toxic slash, and even molt can be just as effective depending on their usage. Frames are not one ability and trying to shoehorn one around a single ability makes for very poor and un-engaging game play.

Oberon is not defined by renewal, and no when you think Oberon you should not think just renewal, you should think of smite, hallowed ground, renewal, and reckoning. Of how they perform on their own and interact with one another. Of how different builds grant strength to some aspects and weakens others.

Renewal is a heal yes, but it's not a get out of jail free card and nor should it ever be.

There's nothing wrong with Oberon's kit that couldn't really be fixed by tweaking some numbers, mostly it's hollow ground that's the issue.

I seriously doubt @DrBorris there meant it as "Frames are designed as 1-trick ponies, so make renewal Oberon's 1-trick".

It seems more like he's trying to say that Most/many frames have abilities that can be the focus of a build, a bread-and-butter of their kit.

There are Rhino builds entirely focused on stomp, and others on Iron Skin. But not too many around Charge or Roar.

There are Loki builds focused on Invisibility, and some on Irradiating disarm. But not too many around Decoy and Switch teleport.

 

What I'm saying, with my assumption of @DrBorris's opinion as a platform, is that Oberon is a Paladin. A healer, among other things. So for pete's sake, maybe it's okay to focus on his healing abilities ability.

 

 

 

Now, as for my 2-cents into the whole "make renewal not end it's healing upon reaching full health" thing.

Oberon as a whole is a mixed bag of roles, identities, and mechanics, and Renewal is just another example of how this can mess with designing a coherent kit.

He was likely given a heal over time aspect to his kit because they wanted to invoke concepts like Druidic regeneration magiks, while they had the burst heal because that's kind of necessary for a front-line combatant. Then they threw in the Duration customization so that players could pick between the two. But they also had to give it a cap because he's not supposed to be so focused on casting that he'll have the energy pool to afford maintaining the ability indefinitely.

 

I have much more to say about my qualms with Oberon, but I'll leave it at that, as this is a focus on renewal.

So, my final verdict? DE, make up your f***ing minds. THEN rework his kit.

 

Now, in the far more likely scenario that DE will just change some things that they aren't sure they like, then I really don't see it mattering if they change it or not.

If they do change it, Fans of his current kit will complain that it's not Oberon anymore.

If they don't change it, People who have been wanting to play oberon, but couldn't stand that mechanic (possibly in addition to others), will complain that they missed a golden opportunity.

 

 

And finally:

27 minutes ago, Talvu said:

I see no reason for it to change, and to change something for the sake of just changing it is very stupid indeed.

As I was saying before, Oberon has a split identity, and thus a split fanbase.

DE changing it is not because they just want to change for the sake of changing, but because they are hearing the side of Oberon's fanbase that you aren't a part of:

The group of people who like some of his other themes, and want him to fit their idea of a good Oberon.

[Kuestenjung]

My thoughts. sounds ok on paper, doesn´t looked good on Primetime.

[Talvu]

16 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

And finally:

As I was saying before, Oberon has a split identity, and thus a split fanbase.

DE changing it is not because they just want to change for the sake of changing, but because they are hearing the side of Oberon's fanbase that you aren't a part of:

The group of people who like some of his other themes, and want him to fit their idea of a good Oberon.

To witch I would argue that it's possibly time for DE to start a campaign to champion the idea that not every frame will or should fit every player.

My thing has been and always will be to try to approach changes to anything with as little changes as possible, this is because I feel that when one makes large sweeping changes to anything it is very easy to loose the aspect that made what one is changing what it is.

Change is required, necessary, even mandatory, but should never be made whimsically or without careful deliberation.

To be honest I would love to see another frame added more along the lines of what most are asking for, because we can never really have enough variety and that variety is the best way to highlight issues which need to be addressed.

[NeonNemesis]

God what a horrible rework. For this you might as well do nothing, this is clearly done by someone who never saw Oberon's kit looks at a brif discripton of the abilities and went "Ok 1=damage, 2=should always be up, 3=HoT and 4=moar damage, done perfect rework in less than 3 minutes!"

 Passive is flat out worse, I don't use pets and I cant recall the last time I saw one, everyone uses sentinels, so for me Oberon no longer has a passive.

The Smite change just shows how well the guy that changed it knew Oberon, this skill isn't meant for damage, it's meant to put enemies fighting amongst each other and knockdown big guys. The scaling damage will hurt the fighting amongst each other.

What's the area of Hallowed Ground? Does it still have the CC/debuff removal/resistance? Did the armor buff got axed for the synergy with renewall? BTW Renewal synergy is useless while heal ends on full hp.

Renewal is now flat out worse in everything next to Trin's bless, before it had the infinite range that I lost count of how many people I saved due to it, now it's a lame version of it. byebye teamwork Oberon now only heals for himself, you might get healed if you're close, but other than that? get rekt.

Does Reckoning still give rad procs? I hope it won't be axed due to the bonus damage to prevent spams. I'm also afraid of the HG reckoning scaling synergy, I afraid we'll see a Limbo cataclysm situation here 

 

If this is the best you can do DE, then don't do anything. For this mess then leave Oberon as it is.

But then again it's pointless to try to reason with DE, they don't listen to their comunity, just take a look at Ash Wonderfull Rework thread with over 100 pages and no answer at all from DE. It's gonna happen the same to Oberon, they are gonna leave him  in the toilet with this mess and will never adress it.

[Buddhakingpen]

I have a dream that my four little healing frames will one day live in a gaming community where they will not be judged by the direct strength of their heals, but by the context, of their character(s kit)

I keep seeing people comparing blessing to renewal, but i hear no one complaining about how trinity provides no cc. Thats a bit interesting to me. 

 

[DreamsmithJane]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Passive is a pidgeonholed piece of garbage to try and lure out companion-useage, despite the fact that people generally prefer Sentinels (Due to: Vacuum, less suicidal tendencies, more reliable in all they do).

Pfft. You don't have to like pets, but pretending they and all things related to them are categorically useless and unwanted because of your personal preference is silly.

I don't like Vacuum. It constantly wastes pickups on marginal deficits. Sentinels die way more often than my kavat (except against Kela), which can be revived indefinitely. My kavat also does a lot more than a sentinel, and yes, it's reliable. The only thing it doesn't do is heal me, which is irrelevant to Oberon anyway. I'll take more frequent use of Smeeta's Charm, Adarza's Cat's Eye, or Raksa's Howl and Protect over any sentinel.

As for what players in general prefer, I've seen quite a few kavats, Sahasa kubrows, and even Helminth Chargers recently. Players are using them already, so I'm sure they're open to having another reason to use them. In fact, I've seen a lot more pets than I have Oberons, so if anything, this will encourage people who like them to use him, not the other way around.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Hallowed ground should move with Oberon. 

Renewal, I'm with the OP. Makes perfect sense.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

K so I have never really been a fan of Oberon.  His kit has felt clunky, spread out, and old.  DE set out with this update to add scaling and synergy to the kit.  And they did.  However at least for me these changes don't really make oberon more friendly to people.  His kit sounds even more complex now.  IMO what made oberon not attractive was 2 fold.  His kit being overly complex.  and him not really fitting his theme.  He's a fairy/paly that doesn't feel like one.  Anyway.  lets get into the changes:

1) Smite's damage now scales with the health of the target it hits...Sounds okay.  that is blatently adding scaling.  You can argue to people that it was never used for damage and instead used for CC.  Which is true.  But the point is it's still a useful thing.  even if it's not hugely useful.

2)  Hollowed ground now is a cone instead of a strip.  and has high radiation proc chance.  Nice.  this adds synergy.  and lets you cover choke points.

3) Renewal is now wave based and gives you armor if you are standing on hollowed ground.  The armor buff will persist even if the healing has stopped and goes off the duration of said ability.  The armor buff thing sounds nice.  Though I thought it already gave armor.  So are we getting more armor now?  Or is this forced synergy?  is the armor % a flat number or is it effected by stats?

4) Reckonning does more damage to rad procced enemies.  enemies hit by reckonning while on hollowed ground receive an armor debuff based on their level. Nice.  More damage and a scaling debuff.

 

Though while a lot of these things are nice it doesn't, at least in my opinion, change oberon's problems as a kit. For the sake of arguing i'll forget that he still doesn't fit thematically.  Firstly.  Oberon is not very survivable.  even if in best case situation that armor buff from renewal isn't going to be good enough to keep him up.  Which likely means you'll need quick thinking.  Second oberon is a very cast heavy frame.  yet he's got one of the smallest pools of energy.  3rdly.  Renewal is still a fudging mess of a power.  Oberon's overall arching issue is that you are constantly fighting with mod space due to how his kit interacts with itself.  You can't mod to do a little of everything without totally gimping yourself.  And specifiying one way completely hurts your kit.  I get that warframes are meant to have a few different playstyles per kit.But oberon basically needs ALL of his powers to even be some what useful for himself and his team.

I think a lot of people have the wrong ideal about oberon's renewal.  specifically with the heal.  it's not supposed to be as good as or on par with trinity.  Mainly because trinity is god tier.  trying to compare any heal versus hers just isn't going to get anywhere.  and the last thing we need is another nerf to trinity.  Though that doesn't mean renewal is okay as is.  It REALLY needs to be simplified.  Like duration should only effect (considering the new changes) the armor buff, bleed out duration, and how long you can be healed.  Not how effective the heal is.  Leave that to strength.  A far as the heal ending when you topped off...perhaps they should make it so you can overheal people similar to how you can do over shields.  Think of it like an increased temp max health until it's shaved off.

Then there is an issue with hollowed ground.  It's a good ability.  But it requires people to stand around on it.  Which doesn't really make sense for a game like warframe.  I think the solution for this is pretty simple.  Simply let people leaving hollowed ground retain the bonuses of said hollowed ground.  But for like. 10 seconds.  And don't let that be effected by duration.  That way people will constantly return to your ground to refresh the buffs.  Or at the very least returning to remove any effect procced on them.

 

It's a shame.  He's got alright damage, good cc, and a miriad of small but useful buffs/debuffs(now.)  But it's all held back by DE fearing him too be too strong and the kit suffering from that mentality.  He's needlessly complex, too squishy, too mod hungry, and stretched too thin stat wise.  and as good as some of these changes are none of them really address his core issues.  On the bright side his new passive is nice.

[kaliazane]

Did they show it in game or just said what skill will do ?

[blkthunder]

God plz make him a druid and make another new frame into a palidan frame with armor 

[Mousarchy]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

From what I've seen of the Oberon rework preview, it pretty much revolves around Hallowed Ground and basing around that ability's duration. What this forces unto the playerbase is building Oberon for duration, but by doing so puts a hamper on his heal-rate with low duration Renewal builds. And the range has been nerfed to a wave instead of infinite range target-friendly power.

Honestly, I'm somewhat disappointed but it's still a preview. More changes will come, more considerations will be discussed. Tbqh, and hopefully, I think everyone and DE is aware that a majority of the Oberon playerbase wants Renewal to get touched on, especially a fix on the HP regen not stopping flat when it reaches the player(s) max HP.

ya. i play a half duration oberon. Im super spammy. hollowed ground lasted as long as its needed and the 30~ sec slow hot was nice. but with it being a duration range 9cuz of wave macanics) that means im going to need to think about how my build is (unless DE surprises us and the wave ends up not being a duration scale)

Honestly the MOST annoying thing about his heal (asides from being able to dodge the orbs for several minutes without trying. fixed by it being a wave) was the fact that the "bleed out reduction" got screwed over by duration... in BOTH extremes...to short and you barely add time. too long and you get a 7 min bleed out that vanishes after 2 seconds.

[PsiWarp]

4 minutes ago, Ordosan said:

ya. i play a half duration oberon. Im super spammy. hollowed ground lasted as long as its needed and the 30~ sec slow hot was nice. but with it being a duration range 9cuz of wave macanics) that means im going to need to think about how my build is (unless DE surprises us and the wave ends up not being a duration scale)

Honestly the MOST annoying thing about his heal (asides from being able to dodge the orbs for several minutes without trying. fixed by it being a wave) was the fact that the "bleed out reduction" got screwed over by duration... in BOTH extremes...to short and you barely add time. too long and you get a 7 min bleed out that vanishes after 2 seconds.

So true. Renewal's inverse relationship for Power Duration actively works against the rest of his kit, even a function within the ability itself (Bleedout extension). I would gladly give up being able to heal people a little faster, in exchange for being able to build for longer lasting ability effects.

[redeyedtreefrog]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)EternalDrk Mako said:

3 does a wave , slower but in a larger aoe

It seems you are misguided on how oberon's renewal really works... currently his renewal has infinite range. Any range < infinite range. You're right about it being slower, though.

[redeyedtreefrog]

48 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

So true. Renewal's inverse relationship for Power Duration actively works against the rest of his kit, even a function within the ability itself (Bleedout extension). I would gladly give up being able to heal people a little faster, in exchange for being able to build for longer lasting ability effects.

.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

37 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

It seems you are misguided on how oberon's renewal really works... currently his renewal has infinite range. Any range < infinite range. You're right about it being slower, though.

i already stated that  .... in previous post 

 its current range is its big attribute and that its reduced to a wave in the "rework" and is a nerf , already covered that

-. 0   how you interpreted the rework version i was speaking on... as the current is ..well beyond me 

[AdunSaveMe]

My concern is the reliance on Hallowed Ground.

Can we not build a Warframe's kit around a stationary ability?

[AdunSaveMe]

14 hours ago, Blakrana said:

I'm currently...baffled as to what is going on with Renewal at the moment. As of the moment, I still don't understand why it is a 'Toggle' when there's not really much point to it as it switches itself off when the duration is finished, unlike a true toggle skill. And with it taking on a range aspect similar to Molecular Prime or Polarise, it ends up being much more complicated.

Hopefully there's more revision going to go into it, but if this is all that's going to happen then...yeah, certainly feeling Oberon got the short end of the stick...again.

And it has a set duration, as well as being an energy drain, which is the kind of thing that should just be phased out. One or the other, not both.

[Leonix13]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

My concern is the reliance on Hallowed Ground.

Can we not build a Warframe's kit around a stationary ability?

Pretty much this, all I see is buffs to nuke spam, and nerf to heal... We have enough nuke frames.

Hallowed Reckoning + Spam 4 = armor shred time (how exciting).