Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

34 minutes ago, LODESAMONEY said:

So what is the ideal build for Oberon these days? I have yet to buy any Primed mods until I know exactly how I want to build it. 

Right now this is how it looks: 

Corrosive Projection, Power Drift, Stretch, Continuity, Flow, Intensify, Streamline, Natural Talent, Vitality, Rage

 

I'm probably going to dump Natural Talent for Steel Fiber, now that Oberon can get more significant armor numbers (though I don't know how higher armor plays with Rage), but then again casting speed might be important so I don't know. I'm not a fan of "cursed" mods, so I'd like to avoid those if I can. I can also drop Continuity and take Quick Thinking or something else in that slot. Power, Range and Cost Efficiency are what I need, not Duration.

 

So what should I keep, what should I Prime, and what should I replace with something else?

Duration effects efficiency immensely

[LODESAMONEY]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Duration effects efficiency immensely

 

Then I need all four of them. Intensify, Stretch, Streamline, and Continuity alongside Flow. And I have to take Hallowed Reckoning, Vitality, and Rage, which leaves me...no slots. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by LODESAMONEY

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

1 minute ago, LODESAMONEY said:

 

Then I need all four of them. Intensify, Stretch, Streamline, and Continuity alongside Flow. And I have to take Hallowed Reckoning, Vitality, and Rage, which leaves me...no slots. 

Hallowed eruption is better, unless u don't like enemies dying quickly. 

[LODESAMONEY]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Hallowed eruption is better, unless u don't like enemies dying quickly. 

Really, I'd prefer either all four of these skills, or none of them, because they're all useful. But taking all of them leaves me hardly any room for anything else. 

I guess I just have to do some theorycrafting here. If I take none of them, do I want to keep Natural Talent, or dump it for Quick Thinking or Steel Fiber?

Edited May 24, 2017 by LODESAMONEY

[Hypernaut1]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Hallowed eruption is better, unless u don't like enemies dying quickly. 

Maybe I don't have it strong enough, but I find being able to spread HG to be more useful than the damage from the eruption augment.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

21 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Maybe I don't have it strong enough, but I find being able to spread HG to be more useful than the damage from the eruption augment.

The augment allows all the damage overtime to be dealt in a burst instantly. So higher duration=more damage

[Jimmeh420]

Of course he's better but he does have a few glaring flaws. The biggest one, in my opinion, is how difficult it is to apply Iron Renewal to allies and how mediocre the buff is for how difficult it is to apply. Oberon should apply Iron Renewal to allies and himself if he casts Renewal while standing on Hallowed Ground himself, regardless of allies being on Hallowed Ground or not. That will fix the difficulty issue. After that the armour buff should be increases or it should be turned into flat damage reduction. For example, 50%.

The second biggest issue is probably Hallowed Ground. It should be made radial and its range increased.

Now that the biggest issues are fixed I think his 4 range and range of the blind should be increased by a bit. The armour reduction should also be increased so you can reach 100% armour reduction of total armour with a bit of power strength. These last ones would be very nice but aren't quite a requirement.

[Jimmeh420]

He does still have a few glaring flaws. The biggest one, in my opinion, is how difficult it is to apply Iron Renewal to allies and how mediocre the buff is for how difficult it is to apply. Oberon should apply Iron Renewal to allies and himself if he casts Renewal while standing on Hallowed Ground himself, regardless of allies being on Hallowed Ground or not. That will fix the difficulty issue. After that the armour buff should be increases or it should be turned into flat damage reduction. For example, 50%.

The second biggest issue is probably Hallowed Ground. It should be made radial and its range increased.

Now that the biggest issues are fixed I think his 4 range and range of the blind should be increased by a bit. The armour reduction should also be increased so you can reach 100% armour reduction of total armour with a bit of power strength. These last ones would be very nice but aren't quite a requirement.

[Alusdrann]

@MarrikBroom Your proposed changes for Oberon's base abilities seem more or less fine to me, though honestly for HG I'd prefer they just further push how it's innately focused on status, to where that's actually a feasible reason to use it, as well as improve the mechanics of its synergy to be less clunky. I described my ideas on how to do that in my original proposal, which is linked in the post of mine you quoted.

Not sure about your change to Hallowed Eruption. Doesn't really make sense with the original concept of the augment, and would probably end up being too much because of the bonuses HG gives (including those you proposed). Likewise, there's probably a better effect you could give Hallowed Reckoning, as a slow effect doesn't really make sense with the skill's guaranteed radiation proc. Maybe turning the skill into effectively a mass Mind Control?

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alusdrann

[(PSN)ImmaTrueSpartan]

On April 26, 2017 at 5:51 PM, An8rchy said:

the cc isnt as great as you think, i say its a nerf cuz old reckoning was better. even old smite was better.

The old stats says its the same. Try being like me and have ove 240% power strength and u wont be complaining. It scales off of the highest enemy. So if u hit a teir 1 enemy with snite dont expect to kill a teir 2. But if u hit a teir 2 all of the teir 1's will die. Oberon isnt built for dps. He does it all.

[[DE]Megan]

4 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I have a low efficiency hollowed ground nuke build in which i heal wen i need it... And a phoenix renewal build. Neither i have at a high efficiency. Duration help with efficiency...

 

The only change i would like to see is not having to use energy drain for shadows, rumblers and such. Trinity doesnt have a higher blessing cost wen she heals... Neither should oberon, especially since hid heals are smaller.

The Energy drain caused by Oberon’s Renewal affecting Nekros’ Shadows of the Dead (and other friendly summons overall) is something we’re currently reviewing. When people first discovered this at launch it was celebrated, but it has quickly turned to a less-than-desired synergy.  
 
As this thread has increased in size and conversations have drifted, many suggestions/concerns have been submerged in the depth. In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon. 

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 
 

[Xekrin]

3 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Smite Infusion: Could we please have Smite Infusion and every other 'gives elemental bonus to damage' augment allow Oberon (and Frost, etc) to aim at their feet and 'bounce' the effect onto themselves?

Quoting for visibility.  I don't know what is going to happen when Oberon, but since this suggestion affects every frame with this annoyance, I want this to be doubly seen.

[NightmareT12]

30 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

The Energy drain caused by Oberon’s Renewal affecting Nekros’ Shadows of the Dead (and other friendly summons overall) is something we’re currently reviewing. When people first discovered this at launch it was celebrated, but it has quickly turned to a less-than-desired synergy.  
 
As this thread has increased in size and conversations have drifted, many suggestions/concerns have been submerged in the depth. In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon. 

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 
 

Thanks Megan.

I'll take the chance to post right now, I've been thinking for a while about all the changes now, I kind of swap positions every now and then -- but ultimately, I feel there's two things that could use some love.

First of all, I believe that Renewal doesn't need an interaction with Hallowed Ground. Synergy is fine, but this one executes poorly. Taking into account we now drain energy constantly and it's limited by range, I believe having the armor on base Renewal wouldn't be a bad thing.

On the other abilities, at first I thought having Oberon on HG should have gotten the benefits on the abilities without need of the enemies being on it -- then I realized, what Scott may be pursuing is to keep the strategic use of Hallowed Ground. So not cast it where you are for bonuses, but on strategic points like doors or spawn points. Thus I personally believe on that front, we're good.

There is, however, still a lack of base Hallowed Ground benefits for allies. Besides Status Clearance, we used to get an armor boost before, which now is on Renewal. First idea was to have something to do with shields (faster regen) but that'd leave Inaros/Nidus out. I'm still wondering what could be good to have here.

As for Shadows, there shouldn't be extra drain from them, thus no healing, HOWEVER, maybe a small benefit for them being in wouldn't be a bad idea. Something like static amount of less Health Decay perhaps? (ie: 0.25 less, so from 2.5% Max HP drain -> 2.25% Max HP drain). Maybe that'd be ask too much though.

Feel free to disagree with me, fellow Tenno :P

EDIT: Can't believe I've missed this: The armor value. 225 for base Oberon (should be the same as Excalibur) and 300 for Prime, please. I mean it.

Edited May 24, 2017 by NightmareT12

[Music4Therapy]

I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I love the rework. Particularly the fact that his Renewal being a toggled effect makes Phoenix Renewal much more reliable. In turn, Phoenix Renewal in conjunction with Rage, Vitality, and (Primed) Flow allows him to come out the worst of situations ahead and refueled. It is through those synergies and 170% efficiency that I've been able to take him as far as 90 minutes solo in Mot (without the use of the cheese that is Naramon) and solo sorties with ease.

On the other, without Phoenix Renewal he is susceptible to burst damage and makes an energy hungry frame like him susceptible to burst damage and energy deprived.

I've been able to have great success with my build, but outside of that very tight build that I run he struggles without an energy gain mechanic. Something as simple as allowing Zenurik and/or Energy Siphon to function while Renewal is draining energy (Similar to Day/Night Equinox's 3 or Volt's Riot Shield) or giving him some sort of energy gaining mechanic (I proposed in the early stages that the projectiles created by Smite should grant Oberon energy upon hitting targets) would go a long ways in opening build paths for him.

Please for the love of god do not change anything about Phoenix Renewal, btw. Its one of the best augments in the entire game as it stands.

[Blakrana]

4 hours ago, Alusdrann said:

Most people would generally expect a rework to make all of a Warframe's abilities at least somewhat decent, as opposed to only one skill being decent and only when force-paired with another terrible ability. But even if for some reason you don't share that viewpoint, I'm sure we can all agree that severe design oversights (such as Shadows of the Dead making Renewal unusable) are a clear indicator that there is still work to be done.

Though, in my professional opinion as someone who works in game development, the current design of his skills is severely unrefined and needs much more iteration to actually feel complete.

 

Edit: Since my main feedback was originally posted in an update thread (Hotfix 20.3.1), I'll link it into here for posterity.

Base changes to Oberon:

Changes to Oberon's augments:

 

Damn...Some nice ideas there. Kudos.

Nothing else, at least I could make a Gabranth colour scheme thanks to the Prime at least. Prime Trailer's probably going to be a little uncomfortable if it tries to emphasise Oberon's "power" though. Can imagine the immediate response if that were the case:

"Ballas, you say that, yet these trials indicate that it becomes less effective when employed with some of your other designs. Surely this isn't the finished product?"

Apologies. Jumping the gun. I admit I have something of an affinity for Oberon due to being able to empathise with the 'not really useful or welcome but still try' thing going on with him. I'm sure there's a more pertinent expression for that sentiment, but I'm not sure what it'd be to hunt it down.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

41 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

The Energy drain caused by Oberon’s Renewal affecting Nekros’ Shadows of the Dead (and other friendly summons overall) is something we’re currently reviewing. When people first discovered this at launch it was celebrated, but it has quickly turned to a less-than-desired synergy.  
 
As this thread has increased in size and conversations have drifted, many suggestions/concerns have been submerged in the depth. In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon. 

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 
 

Thank you!

[Chroia]

56 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon.

Thank you for this/communicating.

As MarrikBroom said, I don't need concrete, definite answers to everything.

26 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Really that's all I want. Just popping in with 'oh hey we're actually still looking this way.'

Edited May 24, 2017 by Chroia

[Blakrana]

34 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

The Energy drain caused by Oberon’s Renewal affecting Nekros’ Shadows of the Dead (and other friendly summons overall) is something we’re currently reviewing. When people first discovered this at launch it was celebrated, but it has quickly turned to a less-than-desired synergy.  

This is, for what it's worth, good to know. It's difficult to endure radio silence at the best of times, especially when it's something that means something to you.

Now...I'll say this much for the current 'Oberon and minions' thing; in theory it's actually kind of cool. It's just that energy drain as it stands. Though I will say that if there's one thing that definitely doesn't make sense, it's the fact it applies to Nyx's Mind Control victim. It may be redundant on Shadows but it atleast gives minions armour buffs that can extend their lifespans or the like. Nyx's target gets nothing due to Mind Control granting invulnerability with delayed damage at the end, however.

As for other aspects about Oberon:

Right now, Smite is in an odd spot with how Scaling behaves on it. Whilst the Scaling damage is in theory great, it reacts poorly to Power Strength as it makes that 35% divided by projectile number. As a result, a lower and lower proportion of that value is on each Projectile, making it less clear it's really doing anything. Whilst I'm sure you're aware, the calculation ends up like the follows:

Base: 35%/7 = 5% per projectile

Yet if you were to have enough Power Strength to have say, 14 projectiles?

35%/14 = 2.5% per projectile. 

I'm not entirely sure how best to remedy this aspect, admittedly, short of perhaps moving this scaling component to another ability: Reckoning would be the immediate candidate, what with how it needs to kill in order to yield health orbs, but I suspect doing so would warrant either a stark decrease in the % bonus, or tying it into the Hallowed Ground interaction.

Speaking of...

Hallowed Ground. Better people than I can say a lot more on what to make of it, but from where I stand, it still feels like it's missing something to make it compelling in its own right, rather than simply being the key to 'synergy' in Oberon's kit at present. With how Renewal can keep all allies warded from ailments so long as you've energy, and how HG can't benefit anyone not standing on it, akin to Atlas' Passive, the only thing left for HG is being deployed to give Reckoning some level of armour removal, or ruining the time of Ancients it affects.

Again, I'm not sure what HG needs to make it a 'thing the party wants to engage with' at the moment, but it definitely needs something.

Either way...I'm not too sure what else to say at this juncture.

However...I do want to state this; whilst I don't intend to apologise for stressing the point about Oberon's current issues, particularly the "Renewal Summon Tax", as it is relevant per the admittance here, I do want to apologise for any potential distress or discomfort I may have caused to those tasked with reading through the forums and such. I know people are doing their jobs and more like than not, we all want to help people with their problems rather than exacerbate them.

I'm hopeful we all want to be in a position where we can agree that Oberon is indeed finally the Paladin we've hoped he'd be, so if anyone may have taken my critique of matters so far somewhat personally, then I'm sorry to that end; we've all tried at something and fell short of the mark, and it certainly hurts to have that highlighted by a party that may be forgetting the human element concerned.

So, even if this isn't necessary, it feels the appropriate action: Sorry for potentially being somewhat inconsiderate in how I've discussed the issue recently.

With any luck, this is the start to some positive forward motion.

[Blakrana]

4 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

However I have to ask, how much time do you need?

Can't say. All manner of things could be used to say why, such as digging into the code, iterations on some answers that didn't pan out...but again, not great at understanding why outside of best guess.

Either way...guess we're on to just see how things develop from here. Hopefully something to discuss on the stream, and more amicably than has been so far.

[Feynt]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

As this thread has increased in size and conversations have drifted, many suggestions/concerns have been submerged in the depth. In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon. 

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 
 

Good to hear, since I've been posting this little tidbit on reddit and only now thought to bring it to the forums.

 

I'm mostly good with Oberon's rework, though it feels like damage wise he's dropped off (for what little he had).  Ignoring that though, the real issue for me is the gating.  Scott said it was synergy, but Hallowed Ground is nothing but a gate for the effects you want out of the other abilities.  Rather than major changes and reworks though, here's very simple change in two parts: 

• Hallowed Ground can apply a timed armour buff (as it would with Renewal when Renewal is dropped) which refreshes when players touch it.
• Hallowed Ground reduces enemy armour (as it would with Reckoning, though toned down slightly) whenever enemies take damage from it.

That's it.  Synergy enforced, and Hallowed Ground gets an identity.  Right now I feel like I must cast Hallowed Ground to get any good use out of my other two abilities.  But if HG actually did these things by itself I'd be casting it a lot more and liking doing it.  It also rounds off the edge of his energy hungry nature by not requiring chain casting of abilities to get the effects you want.

[Music4Therapy]

24 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

It's been three weeks and commentary in thread has been pretty consistent that the synergy was an outright failure and Renewal's costs escilating with healing team members punishes Oberon for trying to be a team player.

I don't agree that the synergy is a failure, they added a lot to the frame that he didn't have before and that has caused a nice surge of players that wouldn't have otherwise played or tried him to not only try Oberon but continue to play him due to what he provides. That is a success.

I agree that healing Nekros's minions does take too much energy, though, and should be looked at.

[KaeseSchnitte]

2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 

 

Here is a suggestion on how to keep the synergy without the downsides: Make the regeneration only apply to the player, but split the actual regeneration evenly across all of that players minions. The regeneration prioritizes the player, meaning that if the player is not at full health, the full regeneration is only on him. If he's at full health, then the regeneration will be split across the player's minions. Companions count as a proper target for the regeneration however.

Edited May 25, 2017 by KaeseSchnitte

[-CM-NineFingers]

Don't dare use renewal with a nekros in your team. For some reason, renewal heals shadows, that constantly lose hp, and they will drain you in a split second... The armor reduction his 4 gives is too low to be useful, and the hallowed ground is too damn small to be useful when compared with the range of the rest of abilities. It's literally half the range of everything else.

TL;DR: Fix renewal to only heal tennos, increase the armor reduction of reckoning (double would be nice) and make hallowed ground scale not only in amplitude, but in length too.

[lihimsidhe]

2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

The Energy drain caused by Oberon’s Renewal affecting Nekros’ Shadows of the Dead (and other friendly summons overall) is something we’re currently reviewing. When people first discovered this at launch it was celebrated, but it has quickly turned to a less-than-desired synergy.  
 
As this thread has increased in size and conversations have drifted, many suggestions/concerns have been submerged in the depth. In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon. 

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 
 

It IS a good synergy but the energy costs are just too high.  Even if the energy cost was capped to a non 'where did all my energy go' rate, SoTD + Renewal wouldn't be OP.  An able Nekros is able to maintain his/her SoTD indefinitely.  All Renewal does is allow said Nekros to have another 'cast and relax' ability via the reworked Desecrate.

One issue is an Oberon keeping SotD alive if Nekros wants to end the current instance for w/e reason.  Soul Punching SotD should instakill SotD.

[LastDraft]

I've been experimenting with Oberon lately, taking him to defence and survival missions (and one excavation), and running through the Law of Retribution and Jordas Verdict trials. As he currently stands, he's functional and handy to have around, but a few more adjustments would certainly help him out. For reference sake, here's how I've built him. I've invested no Forma into him since I'm waiting for the Prime version to come out, and more testing is needed to figure out what to put on him after moving Power Drift to the exilus slot. I've also been using him with syndicate augmented weapons such as the Supra Vandal, Prisma Obex, and Rakta Cernos to maintain energy, although in survival missions Rage does seem to be enough due to enemy density.

Spoiler

And the stats then look like this:

Spoiler

So here are some thoughts regarding how his abilities play, and how they might be adjusted.

Smite - A single target knockdown with some nice health-scaling damage is really nice to have. There's one technical issue with this ability and one functional one that I'd like to see looked at. Some enemies seem to ignore the knockdown in certain states, for example Hyekka masters while summoning and Darkh masters while winding up for a weapon throw. Also Infested Moas seem to completely ignore it in any situation I've tested, even without ancients around. This is a similar issue that Zephyr has with her divebomb, and Limbo used to have with cataclysm. For the sake of utility, it would be really handy if the orbs also cause a knockdown, or if enemies within a certain radius of the targeted enemy also had knockdowns. Otherwise it's as effective as first abilities generally are.

Renewal - The healing is really handy, and with Phoenix Renewal, accomodates some little accidents. Of note is the second part of LoR, where my team managed to survive the pad shock due to someone getting knocked off, just long enough to get to safety to try again. The one major concern with this ability is the ease of missing allies, and the difficulty of reapplying it allies who lose it.

Making the sphere of effect linger so that Oberon can chase down allies who are out of range of the cast, of when recasting the ability to rebuff allies who lost it due to falling off the map, nullifiers, disruptor ancients, or the whatever else seems to remove the heal after a while (I'm not sure why, but I've seen the heal disappear from a teammate for no apparent reason), will greatly increase the usability of the move without having to herd allies. This would also help counter the much smaller range Renewal has versus Trinity's Blessing, especially given a more distinct visual effect so that teammates can clearly see when they're in or out of range.

In regards to the augment, Phoenix Renewal, it really, really needs some form of feedback when trigerring. Something to clearly tell a player that "you should have died right there, wake up" along the same lines of Nidus' undying. Something simple like a flaming particle effect and sound cue, because right now it's easy to miss in the more chaotic missions.

Hallowed Ground - Overall performs as one would expect it to, spreads status reasonably well. Would be nice to have it get the flaming effect that the old version had to increase visibility a little on uneven ground, and if the effect lingered on allies for a short duration after leaving the ground, which would make it a little more forgiving in terms of combination with renewal. Also this ability needs a new augment, as at base it does mostly the same thing.

Reckoning - This ability would gain all the utility it promises by being broken down into sections, which is to say make it act more like Nezha's spears. Lifting enemies in range into the air where they take some radiation damage, and stay there for a duration or until recast, where they will then be slammed to the ground and create the blinding flash. This would allow it to be used tactically, since presently the flash only affects enemies who stand right on the fringe of the ability. Or just a chance to drop energy obs for each enemy affected, something like 20%, would greatly help with energy management and be handy for the team.

Oberon can really embody what a paladin is supposed to be, chasing down allies to give them a healing hand, or throwing himself into groups of enemies, looking at them as a resource more than a threat.

Edited May 25, 2017 by LastDraft
Further testing...