Design Council Challenge Discussion and Feedback

[Pookam]

Just please change the spike attack. That is the only thing that's causing any kind of grief outside of the invulnerability states which I will admit are frustrating but nothing in comparison to getting one shot as a frame designed and famed for being virtually impenetrable. 

I was feeling pretty good. I solo'd the first 10 waves with Chroma. The Tars got pretty annoying but nothing that was unmanageable. In fact I would even say it's the fun kind of hard, where I wasn't mashing E and instead planning my attacks properly while keeping an eye on the pod.

Then I saw Juggernaut, and I basically resigned to a loss. I tried my best and ducked and weaved through a good amount of attacks, but I quickly realized I was doing virtually no damage while he was quickly using up my revives. Before I knew it, I lost all four of my revives. All to the exact same spike attack.

I used a Steel Fiber/Vitality/Vigor Chroma with 145% Power Strength and had Vex Armor and Elemental Ward (Fire) up at all times. When a frame with an effective 12617.225 health (Which is 2.5 times higher effective health than a Valkyr Prime with Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Armored Agility on) dies to a single attack that is a barely telegraphed, lightning fast, unreliable projectile that I have to be right next to because I'm forced into melee, you can bet I'm gonna start blaming the game for my downfalls rather than my own skills.

Warframe has been recently trying to get rid of the more braindead ways of playing the game, such as nerfing Saryn's Miasma and causing Valkyr to drain energy much faster. If they're going to follow through with this, they need to get rid of these types of impossible encounters that encourage that very same playstyle. Being told that I should "just play Valkyr", a frame that even after her nerf is criticized for being braindead due to mashing 4 then E to win due to her invulnerability states, is honestly infuriating to me. 

Better Luck Next Time

Edited April 29, 2017 by Pookam
misspelled "That"

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

11 minutes ago, Duavey said:

"Restricted" weapons are still considered equipped for the sake of Exalt weapons.

hmm, seems like an oversight tbh.

[(PSN)theelix]

16 minutes ago, Punchedface said:

I recently knew that Smite and Reckoning's armor strip was very useful for this, but having to defeat a boss/miniboss by spamming an ability nonstop or play peek-a-boo with using kiddy lasers just seems very off.

 

You know what, I might just consider future DC challenges as nothing more than riddles where you have to find out very specific frames to deal with very specific BS that's presented to the players

The juggernaut really needs to be redesigned. The quill attack that it does is too safe, has just too bad tracking (as it will literally hit you 180 degrees from where it was shot sometimes) and can hit you from more places than you can hit it. 

Especially when you get a horrible glitch like when I carried my friend through it because they NEED that Catalyst, and it gets stuck under the objective and attack the crypod four times and put it to 1/20th its original health. I listened to someone else's advice, and decided to try using my Operator's beam for about two minutes. 

 

 I actually cried a little when I saw how much damage it did. Four energy cycles of Operator beam vs thirty seconds of randomly spamming Excal's blade waves through the wall hoping it opens it stupid face. Excal's blade won that fight outright.

 

In the end I just spammed it to death through a wall with Excal, and can easily see if Excal wasn't my favorite frame in the game and I ran something like say, Ember I'd have been stuck there for way longer than it originally took. 

 

TL;DR 

Brute force > Thought

22 minutes ago, --Q--XFA said:

I felt that they chose this kind of challenge just to show off oberon's rework

I think someone else said that had to use Smite 46 times? That just kinda shows that the rework doesn't scale enough, to me. Banshee can just spam Sonar maybe fifteen, twenty times and one shot the thing far more easily. But, at least it does more than the majority of Warframe abilities did to it. Like, by a large margin. 

 

[SilvaDreams]

1 minute ago, Gamma745 said:

Yeah. Just make sure it is a direct damage ability though, not an Exalted weapon. (DE, why'd you remove my Dex Pixia in that Alert . Why Peacemaker is allowed but not Dex Pixia.)

That sounds like a bug actually.... But it does remove your primary so it would make it fairly weak (base stats)

[SurrealEdge]

I heard about the 'surprise' at the end before I ran it. Ran Valkyr in a PUG that had a Trinity, Ember and an Octavia.

That 'surprise' left the Ember and Octavia ill prepared and had at one point become a game of who can revive who before getting downed.

DE should take into consideration of all skill levels and not those proposed by the absurd minority that thinks cheese=fun.

[Gamma745]

2 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

That sounds like a bug actually.... But it does remove your primary so it would make it fairly weak (base stats)

I've already expected it will be pretty weak. But it sure is better than meleeing and getting one-shot by the juggernaut.

[SurrealEdge]

Too much cheese, not enough actual play.

[Jaysus41]

I think the main takeaway from this alert is that the Juggernaut, from a mechanical point of view, is a broken mess. Any bit of lag will throw off his telegraphs and cause it to shoot decoy spikes and invisible spikes. You know, when he shoots and it clearly misses but you go down anyway, and when he does hit you but deals 0 damage? Lag also desyncs his vulnerability phase and charge attacks. I remember some time before this alert i was in a perfectly fine group, no real noticeable lag, but when juggy spawned we couldn't damage his weakpoint normally, we had to start shooting a few seconds before it reared up. I've also seen him charge while reared up and even sideways.

A memory leak is not the only issue Juggernaut has, he needs a once-over, possibly even a rework.

[xLUONG]

Such a weird community. 13 pages of complaining about a mission lmao

[(XBOX)poodlebingo 65]

1 hour ago, FierceRadiance said:

It's always amusing to read hundreds of posts (representing thousands who didn't post) seething with righteous rage at DE's unfair crap....and then see posts from the twelve lucky bastards who found the right cheat-frame to beat the mission pretend that it was their skill that did it, rather than having every maxed frame and weapon at their disposal, combined with a generous helping of luck.

Please, by all means, brag some more about how good you are, and how easy it was. You entertain us.

I'm one of the twelve lucky bastards.

Did it solo and I didn't enjoy it. Tried just about every frame and combination until I hit on the right setup. I suppose I just cheesed it but kept going until I got this thing beat. It wasn't about skill but determination. Maybe a lesson you could learn?

Thanks for the insult!

[SilvaDreams]

7 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

I've already expected it will be pretty weak. But it sure is better than meleeing and getting one-shot by the juggernaut.

Well it really does look like a bug because people using Mesa could still use their peacemaker without issue and still did full damage as if their Secondary was still equipped.

[MagPrime]

7 minutes ago, xLUONG said:

Such a weird community. 13 pages of complaining about a mission lmao

This is a very spoiled community.  Not a lot of games have such interactive and responsive devs.  Many seem,to have taken it for granted imo.

[Gamma745]

2 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Well it really does look like a bug because people using Mesa could still use their peacemaker without issue and still did full damage as if their Secondary was still equipped.

Even if it is a bug, I can't exactly report it since I didn't take any screenshot of it (I thought it was one of the feature. Melee only, so...).

[(PSN)theelix]

9 hours ago, Purrprika said:

This is a pretty good example of poor gameplay design. I just started playing the game a few days ago and I think I'll chip my two cents into the ring.

For example, the main gate for actually beating the enemy is knowing that you're going to be actually fighting something like that at the end. (most peoples first mistake was made here, but this is the fault of the developer as well for not informing the player)

The second problem is the fact that very few actual builds will function against it, and most of them are "gear-check" options that insure you have to have a select handful of frames with specific equipment to manage the challenge okay.

An example of good gameplay design would be something like a bow only mission in which an enemy spawns at the end that is immune to status effects, moves super quickly, and projects an aura of where it was going to be moving in the next few seconds in front of it. This would give you enough of a reaction time to accurately gauge where you would need to fire with the bows in order to hit the target successfully and complete the mission.

A bad example of the above would be something like a super fast enemy in a bow only mission that is immune to status effects. You have to give your players some level of information so that they can figure out how they're supposed to beat the mission. The juggernaut mission doesn't really do that well, because all it does is throws a lump of instagibbing armor-health at you and expects you to deal with it. If there were for example, areas which you could lure the juggernaut which would corrode the armor that it has off of it and stun it for a second or two so you could get a few hits in, it would encourage the players to adapt to the situation and not be extremely reliant on the gear that they happen to be wearing at the time.

The important thing in a challenge shouldn't be 100% equipment. It should be a balance of skill and player agency. A challenge isn't a challenge if only the top 10% of players have the equipment to deal with it. If that was the case and you were designing around it, then multiple instances of the mission should have been created for different brackets of mastery to accommodate peoples level of equipment / experience. This would allow lower mastery players to get rewards too, while scaling down the level of the content to accommodate for their lack of equipment / experience.

I can't upvote this enough. 

This is exactly the type of difficulty that I want to see in a game -- you go in and can reasonably beat this massive challenge ahead of you through skill, not happening to bring your own overwhelming odd (AKA literal god mode Valkyr) to negate the fact that not everything can do that. 

I want to be able to go in with something like Excal and not have to resort to spamming Exalted blade through a wall, but rather channel blocking the quill barrage at the right time to not immediately die. 

I'd have liked to be able to get a challenge like Dark Souls presents to me. I'm not upset when a boss one shots me in Dark Souls because it's telegraphed by a wall+arena, and if I'm level headed I can reasonably just outskill the boss rather than brute force it to death. Sure, maybe I die once or twice because it has dynamic attack combos meant to lure out a specific roll/attack to kill you, but that's actual challenge. I'm not outskilling my opponent by having it bash it path error against a wall and not know what to do while I whittle away its health with my operator. The opponent isn't well designed by being able to kill me regardless of my dodging mechanics and objects in the way. That's not a dynamic attack combo. That's why Limbo's on the rise of becoming one of my favorite frames, he has i-frames in the sense of your dodge actually means something (and it looks better and far more fitting in this game, in my opinion). He rewards a bit more tactical play (ignoring Cataclysm one shot spam). 

[Gamma745]

Titania with Zenistar. Got a team of 2 Valkyr and 1 Nidus. Funny thing is, the Valkyrs can't kill the Juggy that quickly. Predictably, resorting to Operators beam for Juggy.

[MewmewGirl]

6 hours ago, Jangkrik said:

Define OP. The last time I checked, a fully forma'ed Braton can take down a juggernaut no problem.

Says someone who obviously hasn't tried doing the level to know what we're talking about.  Not only is this a special level 120 Juggernaut but you are limited to a melee weapon only here.

 

And no, it's not a fun surprise, it's a Troll surprise (it truly feels like a level a Troll would design).  It's not at all worth the measly reward but also the Juggernaut part just isn't fun to do.  The amount of time he takes is ridiculous, if you are even lucky enough to have brought the correct setup to bring him down.

[Punchedface]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

has just too bad tracking (as it will literally hit you 180 degrees from where it was shot sometimes) and can hit you from more places than you can hit it.

Literally won't be surprised if they coded the quill projectile and animation purely for visuals and the Jug simply scans the area for existing players and instantly apply 1000 x lvl damage.

[MewmewGirl]

I can't help but think the Design Council needs some new blood if they thought that this thing was a good idea.  The whole thing is a good deal of work without the Juggernaut for only getting a measly single Orokin Catalyst Blueprint out of it, but to be where you think you are about to finish finally and that nearly invincible Juggernaut comes out that's not the least bit fun.  Is going back in again going to be worth it?  How much time did we just waste because of that Juggernaut surprise at the end?  Now we're going to start it all over and do it again, and still only for this measly Catalyst Blueprint?  It's not a fun or funny surprise and it's not worth the prize.  Honestly this whole thing seems like something a Troll would design.

 

I actually enjoy doing the three Sortie missions solo.  They're a high challenge while still fun.  I can't say the same for this sponge Juggernaut at the end of this mission here.  Getting zapped the entire mission by the pod we're defending is pretty bad as it is, taking it for 10 waves of high level infested would have been okay without the Juggernaut.

 

I seriously am at a loss at how they thought this was a good idea, other than if it really was a trolling type of thing where someone thinks it's pretty funny watching the rest of us in pain and frustration over it.

[(PSN)Majoga]

Can be done, honestly hardest part is getting others to listen. Took out my operator as did one of my other party members listened, while the other two continued to melee for nothing except needing to be resurrected. Took the jugg down to about 50% before others started aborting and host migration messed things up. It'll take a while, but it works. Just need to find a group that will go along with it. 

[SenorClipClop]

Broberon!

[SilvaDreams]

6 minutes ago, MewmewGirl said:

I can't help but think the Design Council needs some new blood if they thought that this thing was a good idea.  The whole thing is a good deal of work without the Juggernaut for only getting a measly single Orokin Catalyst Blueprint out of it, but to be where you think you are about to finish finally and that nearly invincible Juggernaut comes out that's not the least bit fun.  Is going back in again going to be worth it?  How much time did we just waste because of that Juggernaut surprise at the end?  Now we're going to start it all over and do it again, and still only for this measly Catalyst Blueprint?  It's not a fun or funny surprise and it's not worth the prize.  Honestly this whole thing seems like something a Troll would design.

 

I actually enjoy doing the three Sortie missions solo.  They're a high challenge while still fun.  I can't say the same for this sponge Juggernaut at the end of this mission here.  Getting zapped the entire mission by the pod we're defending is pretty bad as it is, taking it for 10 waves of high level infested would have been okay without the Juggernaut.

 

I seriously am at a loss at how they thought this was a good idea, other than if it really was a trolling type of thing where someone thinks it's pretty funny watching the rest of us in pain and frustration over it.

People constantly complain they want a challenge then whine when given one.

It wasn't hard, it made you have to think outside of the box a little but completely possible for everyone.

[Eisen]

How come you say 'challenge' and then say it wasn't hard?

How is a valkyr with hysteria 'thinking outside of the box'

And no, it is not possible for everyone.

[Jangkrik]

21 minutes ago, MewmewGirl said:

Says someone who obviously hasn't tried doing the level to know what we're talking about.  Not only is this a special level 120 Juggernaut but you are limited to a melee weapon only here.

And no, it's not a fun surprise, it's a Troll surprise (it truly feels like a level a Troll would design).  It's not at all worth the measly reward but also the Juggernaut part just isn't fun to do.  The amount of time he takes is ridiculous, if you are even lucky enough to have brought the correct setup to bring him down.

That was a hyperbole as I'm pretty sure everyone is using a melee weapon more decent than a Braton (no, I won't compare it to a Skana or Bo because they're borderline useless in the alert). 

Yes, I do agree that it's rather problematic to use melee weapons for the juggernaut but its difficulty is greatly exaggerated if you agree that only high MR user with OP weapons can beat it, which is my main point.

My main point was about the one saying that OP weapon is required, not the mission in general. I agree that the mission is rather ridiculous, but I greatly disagree to someone saying that the mission is only beatable normally with OP weapon and high MR players.

[Syndrella]

I haven't gear to deal with the juggernaut in the end so my mission is failed. This enemy is in normal levels broken too but here with this level behind the walls can one hit everyone and our strongest peoples in the team also fall too fast. Not really know what build do you guys are using but it could be something min max and mods what I do not own otherwise it should take a long time to beat him.

I haven't operator mode because didn't finished the second dream nor interested to do it and in the normal frame mode we should beat him with a hard fight. The 4 revives is not enough because everyone whom trying to revive others will down aswell. 

I don't like this mission so I guess I won't do it again that credit reward and potato not worth for it (for me atleast). Sry for not to be constructive I just feel sad to not beat this enemy but this event is not made for everyone and the half part of playerbase like it other part hate it.

[(PSN)theworldeater008]

Excalibur, god build. Powered towards radiant finish. Simple. 

Update: It got alot harder. It seems folks were saying it was too easy and took a very small amount of time. It seems DE pays attention when people say it's too easy, increasing it's hp, dmg resist, poison output, etc.,  It was a long and tough battle indeed. But very fun. 

I finally beat it with a good team, but it took almost an hour to beat it. I used my lv 19 double forma Excalibur, minus major/rare mods and weapons, due to lack thereof, the others' warframes were level 30, including an octavia and vauban with prime melee weapons. 

Before the match even began, I got on recruiting chat tab and luckily someone sent me a pm. That led to another joining in and then finally our last member joined up and we brainstormed about it. I was thinking really only an Excalibur or two would help, but that was not the case. Each squadmate gave their input and previous experience with the lv 120 juggernaught. We put our heads together and even though it was hard and we had to resurrect alot, we got the job done. 

It was certainly something fun that should be done again in another forma. Sorry, I had to. XD

Edited April 29, 2017 by (PS4)theworldeater008