Design Council Challenge Discussion and Feedback

[Hanari]

I've had a lot of "technical" issues during the final juggernaut phase (solo). I'm curious if anyone else has been dealing with them as well.

The extremely frequent lightning strikes seem to be on some RNG system, so even as Valkyr (I've personally modded mine for highest durability and mobility) I would die due to back-to-back-to-back-to-back lightning strikes at about half health (I got air/ground-combo'd by mother nature, arcade fighter style). I tried/failed a few runs thinking I was seeing things but I've confirmed that I was incredibly unlucky to be juggled to death by lightning several times. Not entirely sure if this is 100% on purpose, but my bad luck didn't end there.

I see that in earlier posts in this thread that people had no problem cheesing juggy via Valkyr. Unfortunately, in my first run with Valkyr, juggy never exposed either of his weak points as I spent minutes varying from standing close by or a distance away for him to do so (slowly but surely used up revives and failed the mission). So either something's up or I'm having perhaps the worst luck in WF.

In my second run in with juggy as Valk, every time he "opened up" for me I decided to go all in. However, none of my hits would deal any damage. Zeroes everywhere, even when I'm all up in his weak point grills. Very rarely some hits would actually deal damage in his weak spots. Needless to say, it was an unnecessarily long process. I assume its hitbox is a mess, but this is the first time I've seen it so utterly screwed up. Again, curious if this was also on purpose, and surprised that people could cheese a la Valkyr.

So, anyone else having similar issues or was this just a ridiculous case of bad luck for me?

[Jade-Lion]

So my group went into this with a Stasis Limbo, Bless Trinity, and a newbie Rhino. No pets, only sentinels.

We knew from a friend that is was melee only, but he never got past wave 5, so the surprise jug was unexpected.

We cleared the 10 waves of easily enough, the jugg was another matter entirely since it is immune to Limbo Stasis, I assume due to mini-boss immunity or some glitch. So the Limbo spent the entire time reviving team mates or trying to keep the Juggs attention for a breather. The Bless-Trinity kept getting one shot through Link and an active 75% Blessing, while the Rhino took two shots to go down.

The main source of damage was the Trinity spamming Energy Vampire/Well of Life to eat at the health of the jugg while we got the occasional melee attack in. It took over an hour and a half to kill that thing, but we finished the mission.

In theory this was fun, in practice it was a gear check.

If you want to create a challenge, try restricting the warframes and companions that can be used in a mission rather than the weapon type. Yes this will alienate some players, but probably no more than restricting it to players who invested in an end game atterax rather than those that went with an end game Vaykor Hek.

There are better ways to create a challenge than obfuscating the truth of a missions requirements. Perhaps requiring all weapons used be the MK-1 variety.

 

 

[Eisen]

1 minute ago, Hanari said:

I've had a lot of "technical" issues during the final juggernaut phase (solo). I'm curious if anyone else has been dealing with them as well.

The extremely frequent lightning strikes seem to be on some RNG system, so even as Valkyr (I've personally modded mine for highest durability and mobility) I would die due to back-to-back-to-back-to-back lightning strikes at about half health (I got air/ground-combo'd by mother nature, arcade fighter style). I tried/failed a few runs thinking I was seeing things but I've confirmed that I was incredibly unlucky to be juggled to death by lightning several times. Not entirely sure if this is 100% on purpose, but my bad luck didn't end there.

I see that in earlier posts in this thread that people had no problem cheesing juggy via Valkyr. Unfortunately, in my first run with Valkyr, juggy never exposed either of his weak points as I spent minutes varying from standing close by or a distance away for him to do so (slowly but surely used up revives and failed the mission). So either something's up or I'm having perhaps the worst luck in WF.

In my second run in with juggy as Valk, every time he "opened up" for me I decided to go all in. However, none of my hits would deal any damage. Zeroes everywhere, even when I'm all up in his weak point grills. Very rarely some hits would actually deal damage in his weak spots. Needless to say, it was an unnecessarily long process. I assume its hitbox is a mess, but this is the first time I've seen it so utterly screwed up. Again, curious if this was also on purpose, and surprised that people could cheese a la Valkyr.

So, anyone else having similar issues or was this just a ridiculous case of bad luck for me?

Went in with a fatal teleport ash, got tired of pressing 3 and doing no dmg, got killed a couple of times at random with no juggernaut in sight, may be due those lightnings or some other thing.
Juggernaut had a thing for dashing outside of the map and appearing behind people attacking with that instagib bs proyectile he has, I died behind cover, inside a room or would simply drop to the ground quite often while being stealthed and running around.
Went with Nidus, same thing, went with excal, same thing; in the end I wasn't even frustrated, got bored. silly potato is not worth the hassle.

I think it was due the host having potato internet, but the fight was kinda inconsistent when I went in solo too, so who knows.

[BenzinNinJa]

I think many people are unaware of how the Design Council really works.

It's not like there's a civilized discussion weighing pros and cons to see what would be the best challenge.
It's more of a human powered RNG machine.

DE creates a thread asking a question, an maybe they've stuck a poll in as well.
Then the members vote (if required) and post their answer to whatever the question was.

Once this is done DE sprinkles some magic dust on it, and out comes whatever they chose.

This particular event was generated from four variables that could be voted on. Faction, condition, min/max level, and reward.
That turned out as a Infested melee only 90-120 mission with a Catalyst reward.

[Tsandra]

Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior the Redeemer? 

[(PSN)lubekka]

Not worth it, the time i wasted to shoot that jug (not having fun btw, remember that giving 1 billion hp to something doesn't make it hard, it makes it boring) could have been easily used to earn 20 plats and buy the pre-built catalyst

[SilvaDreams]

13 minutes ago, Eisen said:

Went in with a fatal teleport ash, got tired of pressing 3 and doing no dmg, got killed a couple of times at random with no juggernaut in sight, may be due those lightnings or some other thing.
Juggernaut had a thing for dashing outside of the map and appearing behind people attacking with that instagib bs proyectile he has, I died behind cover, inside a room or would simply drop to the ground quite often while being stealthed and running around.
Went with Nidus, same thing, went with excal, same thing; in the end I wasn't even frustrated, got bored. silly potato is not worth the hassle.

I think it was due the host having potato internet, but the fight was kinda inconsistent when I went in solo too, so who knows.

Ya I know the feeling with the potato host... Whoever was the host for me kept going from 185ms ping to 1600+ms ping so I'd randomly go down.

Still killed the Juggernaut with Oberon's Smite on my main account and Excalibur on my freebie Alt account.

[Hanari]

10 minutes ago, Eisen said:

Went in with a fatal teleport ash, got tired of pressing 3 and doing no dmg, got killed a couple of times at random with no juggernaut in sight, may be due those lightnings or some other thing.
Juggernaut had a thing for dashing outside of the map and appearing behind people attacking with that instagib bs proyectile he has, I died behind cover, inside a room or would simply drop to the ground quite often while being stealthed and running around.
Went with Nidus, same thing, went with excal, same thing; in the end I wasn't even frustrated, got bored. silly potato is not worth the hassle.

I think it was due the host having potato internet, but the fight was kinda inconsistent when I went in solo too, so who knows.

Apparently, jugg got buffed, so I wouldn't be surprised if DE decided to kill certain abilities against it. I've died quite a few times from the sudden teleporting-away-just-to-teleport-right-behind-you jugg myself, so I made sure to dodge like hell if I didn't have a visual of it. But, yeah, overall not worth being bugged out on.

10 minutes ago, BenzinNinJa said:

I think many people are unaware of how the Design Council really works.

It's not like there's a civilized discussion weighing pros and cons to see what would be the best challenge.
It's more of a human powered RNG machine.

DE creates a thread asking a question, an maybe they've stuck a poll in as well.
Then the members vote (if required) and post their answer to whatever the question was.

Once this is done DE sprinkles some magic dust on it, and out comes whatever they chose.

This particular event was generated from four variables that could be voted on. Faction, condition, min/max level, and reward.
That turned out as a Infested melee only 90-120 mission with a Catalyst reward.

I know some people on the DC, and...well...let's just say they sincerely regret ever becoming founders and have stopped participating for a while now (not to mention barely logging in). I'm frankly impressed that the DC is active from what I hear of it (rather, what little significance you guys have over...anything). I take it that DE is starting to remember that the DC exists? Honestly, just curious to see if you guys are even properly talked/responded to by the devs.

[Otakuwolf]

I play this game since it was just released in open beta and i gotta say that level 120 juggernaut in a "melee only" environment is hands down probably the stupidest thing i ever seen after the farming requirements for Hydroid on release.

I played and cleared this event with a fully modded Valkyr prime and a Galatine prime, and even then 9 out of 10 all i saw coming from it was 0 damage on hysteria because the guy has this "fun" mechanic that it only takes damage when he's about to attack, and even then it was barely taking any damage.

THIS is the reason why all my friends have left the game: because as of lately the fun literally went out of the window as 9 out of 10 of the latest "events" are either about cheesing the game or try to be in the mind of the developers guessing what equipments you're supposed to use to beat the level, and Is not fun to be forced into a very precise playstyle, especially in a game that offers so much variety.

Fighting "impossible" enemies is not fun. Being forced into precise playstyles for no reason and without any warning is not fun, actually, it feels like a joke. Spending ages fighting a boss that takes damage whenever it feels like (i know it takes damage only when is about to attack but that's what i mean) and can oneshot you no matter what AND is immune to any status whatsoever is not fun.

I especially dislike how the mission doesen't tell you anything except the mobs levels, and THIS is probably the biggest complaint i have: even in sorties we are told the mission conditions and what we are going to face, but not here... why ? To me it felt like a joke, as if the game went "Hey ! Check out this high level mobs mission and get your free reward as a "gift" ! Oh, did i forget to tell you is melee only ? Well, not my problem... What's that ? You passed the final wave ? Well, actually i'm gonna spawn a level 120 Juggernaut because it's such a smart and fun idea to put you melee only against an enemy that doesen't take melee damage unless it wants to and can oneshot you no matter what... What's that ? I didn't tell you anything ? Well, sucks to be you, have fun, sucker !"

Seriousely, i know there are hardcores that enjoy this kind of stuff, but hardcores are a small portion of the playerbase. I personally like challenges but only within the range of the "reasonable", not this, and i will also say that most of the people i know do not like this kind of stuff at all, and that's why they are not playing anymore. I don't know if DE is trying to cather to the veterans and/or the hardcores, but if that's the case, please stop and think about this: your playerbase is not made only by hardcores, and you won't get any new players if the game will only revolve around those type of players.

[Kajoki]

13 hours ago, Brachion said:

I used Excal. It took a while, but we eventually killed it. I can imagine Valkyr also working quite well.

Nope Valkyr totally useless

[SolarDwagon]

Gift of the Lotus alert I assume? Ouch.

Try Redeemer or a frame with projectile powers is all I can say. Not arguing with any point, just suggesting something that might work slightly better than hammering face.

[SilvaDreams]

8 minutes ago, Kajoki said:

Nope Valkyr totally useless

Nah you just have to wait for it to rear up then go for that soft underbelly.

Or try for the tenticals on the back.

Edited April 29, 2017 by SilvaDreams

[Kyryo]

  

Problem solved.

 

Also, we had those "lotus gifts" as lv 1-10 , 20-30 50-60 max a lots of time, you will certainly not die if for once the gift is behind an actual challenge. This happened something like 3 times in 2 years. so why complaining? is not like you will die of starvation if you don't obtain that potato.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Kyryo
Added somethig

[Hemmo67]

design council CHALLENGE

if everyone could do it it would not be much of a challenge would it?

[Ahcruna]

This was just an 'extra' alert. you still did get the normal dev stream alert which you could just use a passive aoe to walk through



___________________________________________________
There was a hole here, now it's gone. I guess...  (╯°Д°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[Dhrekr]

7 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

if everyone could do it it would not be much of a challenge would it?

As a Design Council member, my opinion is that a challenge should still be fun. Hard, but fun.

 

And this wasn't.

(I did vote for something else, but...)

[Myscho]

Without Juggy at the end, that alert is hardly challenging so they must put there something challenging/unexpected

[Hemmo67]

Just now, Dhrekr said:

As a Design Council member, my opinion is that a challenge should still be fun. Hard, but fun.

 

And this wasn't.

(I did vote for something else, but...)

each for our own?

[Noioiy]

I took an Oberon and the zenistar. Didn't knew we'd get a Juggernaut in the end. I just kept using my disc with the others poked it with their golden chopsticks and swords. Oh and I spammed my 1 constantly as well dealing 120 damaged per projectile haha.

[Reifnir]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

People constantly complain they want a challenge then whine when given one.

You see, challenge as normally seen by DE is, for a lack of better term, cheese.

We got used to it, we forgot that challenging can at the same time be fun and kinda gave up.

But when a mission "By Design Council" is also made of cheese, it kinda rubs another metric buttload of salt into the wound. 

And no, an enemy that spends 90% of its lifetime in  an invulnerability phase and is capable of one-shotting even heavily armored frames like Inaros with a full stack of Scarab Armor is anything but fun. Immune to any forms of CC, immune to Nidus Link, immune to pretty much anything. 

When I finally killed it, it was with a team where Valkyr did the beating with Rhino buffing the damage and corrosive procs/Kavat removed all the armor. It still involved a good deal of random dying. A tedious, dumb process of chasing the thing across the map and chipping away at its health pool when it feels like letting you do it. 

 

Conclusion: The juggernaut part was godawful. Whoever came up with this does not deserve to be on design council, or in any decision-making to begin with. You could've made custom Infested waves (wave 1 - chargers, wave 2 - volatine runners, wave 3 - boilers or something). Or added deadly environmental hazards spreading with each wave, herding the tenno into an ever-shrinking area. SOMETHING. Instead, you went for the worst cheese Warframe has to offer. Not cool. Not cool at all. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Reifnir

[kyori]

Perhaps you should ask the design council for tips. Since they designed it, they should be able to complete it effortlessly ya? lol

[Urlan]

I can understand your feelings on that, situations like super juggernaut are geared more towards those 'hardcore' players as you said and would be pretty unfun in most situations. Most players I saw running it tended to do so by following the age old adage of answer cheese with cheese and did things like invulnerability, invisibility, or combinations of the two. Nidus, who was a popular suggested warframe for the alert was able to be one-shot by the jugg's Organic Drakgoon but hopefully with enough stacks you could lure it away from the pod and eventually overwhelm it. I was told the Redeemer was decent as it acts like a gun on its charge attack though the Sarpa would work probably as well in such a case. The Zenistar was popular as well for its charge attack disc. One thing I was surprised by was that that normal enemies did not seem to have the stat changes suggested by the levels listed - we compared this when a syndicate New Loka attacked compared to the match's normal infested - seemed to be quite the jump and matched more what we expected.

My advice for the mission and others that might show like it is ask other players what gave them trouble - in this case the jugg - and the specifically prepare yourself against it. If you can beat the juggernaut, you can beat the rest of the mission well enough. Warframes that were popular were Nidus (Though he can't take a hit from the Organic Drakgoon); invulnerable warframes like Valkyr, those that resist death like Wukong, and we even saw a bunch using Naramon or invisibility warframes, those with Exalted Melee abilities like Wukong, Valkyr, and Excalibur might also give an edge since the weakspots have less of a window for melee attacks.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Urlan

[Hanari]

Actually, I just confirmed indirectly that on region chat, Reddit, the WF discord, etc. that the Juggernaut is sometimes bugged to be invulnerable even on its weak spots, which was the issue I had as well. So, if anyone has that issue, abort the mission and pray against a bugged jugg if you decide to try again.

[Elvangreen]

Mag, she can make the jug shoot itself with its "Organic Drakgoon"

[LunarEdge7]

Oberon. Bring a Trinity along. Put tons of strength, dodge and roll while spamming drakgoons out of your hand. I kind of like this scaling smite now.