Design Council Challenge Discussion and Feedback

[Midrib]

Why are people complaining? seriously, this is an extra alert to your every week Gift of the lotus, its a 1 time alert with 20p slapped to it in the form of a potato, why is it such an issue for you? If you want the reward or just want to go in for a silly 1 time mission then go for it, if not then thats your choice, but don't give people S#&$ for free stuff.

This alert isn't meant for low-mid level players, and if you saw the enemy level at 90-120 and didn't go with your best gear, then that's entirely your problem.

[Gorila_Azul]

Wukong.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 minutes ago, Midrib said:

Why are people complaining? seriously, this is an extra alert to your every week Gift of the lotus, its a 1 time alert with 20p slapped to it in the form of a potato, why is it such an issue for you? If you want the reward or just want to go in for a silly 1 time mission then go for it, if not then thats your choice, but don't give people S#&$ for free stuff.

This alert isn't meant for low-mid level players, and if you saw the enemy level at 90-120 and didn't go with your best gear, then that's entirely your problem.

I resent the time waste, frankly. The lack of notice that it was melee only. And, on Xbox at least, enemy level isn't shown. 

[ScorpDK]

IMHO, What I want to see as a challenge, is one where every mod is disabled on your gear, and you cannot use items. Enemies don't need to be high-level, as the lack of mods will equalize the battlefield for both the new players, and the "come on, DE, make this game harder" crowd. :P

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

We 3 tenno'd it: I was Valkyr, and there was an Ivara and a Nidus. If you go as Valkyr remember to put your Maiming Strike on your melee weapon. I forgot to do this, so it took us a little longer than it should have.

[Kaotyke]

11 minutes ago, Moysa said:

who needs hysteria? use hirudo and go nuts with warcry. you'll outheal the damage.

another option, banshee specced for sonar. that damage boost is absurd, and allows you to hit other spots. i had euphona prime equipped when this happened. banshee in my group hit sonar. i crit a jugg for almost 6 million in one shot.

I would believe that... if the alert wasnt MELEE ONLY

That aside, Vazarin for days, many revives, but we pug'ing did it.

[Midrib]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

I resent the time waste, frankly. The lack of notice that it was melee only. And, on Xbox at least, enemy level isn't shown. 

This is a video game, all of it is pretty much a time waste, main objective is for the player to have fun, if you didn't that's fine, but giving people a hard time for trying isn't

[(PSN)jmontoy7]

Who the hell thought this was a good idea?! Nobody can get anywhere near the stupid juggernaut before were all dead! If youre ever going to submit a challenge then you all in DC should be required to complete the challenge before its approved. This is so infuriating because it shows up at the end once all that time has been invested in the mission which is no wak in the park to get to 10 waves when it seems like different sprtie and nightmare challenges are thrown at you wave after wave. I hate these missions because it feels lazy. A harder difficulty doesnt male a game good if its unbeatable!!!!! If I wanted to pull my hair out of frustration then I would play Dark Souls or any other impossible game. Warframe is NOT that and its because it is not that I love this game. Please fix this mess!

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I just assumed the DC were all elite players and this passed because they had no trouble with it. 

[(XBOX)ThermalStone]

I'm on the design council and I forgot to vote.  That's how we end up with Trump as President.  Sorry!

To the people complaining:  this mission is a test of skill.  Skill in Warframe is bringing the right loadout to make difficult content easy.  That's what all challenging content in the game (sorties, events, mastery rank tests, etc.) is testing:  your understanding of game mechanics and your preparation.

Edited April 28, 2017 by (XB1)ThermalStone

[NuwaNightstone]

This is a pretty good example of poor gameplay design. I just started playing the game a few days ago and I think I'll chip my two cents into the ring.

For example, the main gate for actually beating the enemy is knowing that you're going to be actually fighting something like that at the end. (most peoples first mistake was made here, but this is the fault of the developer as well for not informing the player)

The second problem is the fact that very few actual builds will function against it, and most of them are "gear-check" options that insure you have to have a select handful of frames with specific equipment to manage the challenge okay.

An example of good gameplay design would be something like a bow only mission in which an enemy spawns at the end that is immune to status effects, moves super quickly, and projects an aura of where it was going to be moving in the next few seconds in front of it. This would give you enough of a reaction time to accurately gauge where you would need to fire with the bows in order to hit the target successfully and complete the mission.

A bad example of the above would be something like a super fast enemy in a bow only mission that is immune to status effects. You have to give your players some level of information so that they can figure out how they're supposed to beat the mission. The juggernaut mission doesn't really do that well, because all it does is throws a lump of instagibbing armor-health at you and expects you to deal with it. If there were for example, areas which you could lure the juggernaut which would corrode the armor that it has off of it and stun it for a second or two so you could get a few hits in, it would encourage the players to adapt to the situation and not be extremely reliant on the gear that they happen to be wearing at the time.

The important thing in a challenge shouldn't be 100% equipment. It should be a balance of skill and player agency. A challenge isn't a challenge if only the top 10% of players have the equipment to deal with it. If that was the case and you were designing around it, then multiple instances of the mission should have been created for different brackets of mastery to accommodate peoples level of equipment / experience. This would allow lower mastery players to get rewards too, while scaling down the level of the content to accommodate for their lack of equipment / experience.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

So real question, DC people: is trial and error part of the expected skill in this particular challenge? Since there's no indication of it being melee only until you're there. 

I had no reason to suspect that my primary and secondary would be inadequate to dealing with a juggernaut. But I also had no idea I wasn't going to be allowed to use them.  To me that reads more like a test of "you happened to pick the right frame!"

Edited April 28, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[PakkiTheDog]

Are warframe players spoiled? Like little kids starting a fit. The orokin catalyst challenge was meant to be tough, not to be finished by everybody. If you can't finish it than you have the orokin reactor alert. But if you have the knowledge and the mods/frames/weapons and you still fail on every try than there is nothing else to say than get gud. Try again, check your builds, rethink the frames you'll take, try getting a squad.... 

The only thing that was a mistake is that it wasn't written that it is melee exclusive. But than again if you come into the mission, see it is melee only=abort+rethink strategy+restart=reward/satisfaction.

 

The juggernaut was a pleasant surprise, fear that i haven't felt in this game for a long time (not counting the fear from losing the rewards bc bugs). The previous challenge alert was great too. Forcing players to stay that minimum of 20 min of survival and starting with lvl 70 enemies.

 

 

I hate it that there are so many threads that bash on the new challenge alert idea. I'm afraid that they'll stop these kinds of alerts because of such negative feedback.

 

So i'd like to say GREAT JOB DE, KEEP THEM COMING!!!!!

[Tesseract7777]

I just did the alert. I went PUG and brought Inaros and a Jat Kittag, knowing neither could properly cheese the jug, because I wanted to see what a beautiful disaster it could truly be in a PUG. I got a Valkyr who was mediocre and being outdamaged by a Limbo, and an Octavia who "thanked us for the carry" at the end. And yet we won handily. Yes, there were lots of revives all around once the Juggy arrived, but we killed him with our operators in probably like ten minutes max.

And it was incredibly fun. To the Design Council, thanks for the most fun I have had in game in a long time! Playing with random people, them not knowing the Jugg was coming like I did, not being "perfectly maxed" and having to find a different solution, since getting close with melee would have been out of the question for the frames most of us were running, and we didn't have the right damage. Seeing four operators running around shooting void lasers and reviving each other as operators while trying to avoid a rampaging infested monster was more fun than I have ever had playing Warframe. There was some kind of simple beauty to it, and I cannot wait until operator gameplay is more fleshed out. 

I encourage everyone to attempt their own operator battles in the future, and to remember how useful the operator can be if you run up against a Juggernaut and your weapons don't have the right mods. 

So thanks, and please do suggest more events like this in the future! This alert was a great idea! 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[IceColdHawk]

Np bro.

[Callmeshirley]

Dead in about 4 seconds with nova, banshee, limbo and mesa.

[MagPrime]

2 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

*Me and the other DC members*

Muahahahahahaha!!!

Sorry not sorry guys.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Er, quick question...is anyone else getting shocked by over-abundant lightning strikes in the mission?

I just haven't seen it mentioned in any of the posts I've seen so far, so I was just wondering...

[Jaysus41]

It was alright I guess. But I do have few complaints.

First, lag seems to wreak havoc on his telegraphs. I was getting killed by attacks aimed in the absolute opposite direction. Not to mention him charging sideways... Second, that spike barrage attack that oneshots man and god alike should not be able to go through walls, there should be zero debate on that. For the most part it felt like the only way to go is for everyone to gang up and swing wildly until someone gets a lucky hit on his weakpoint and takes it down, or until everyone gets killed simultaneously. I have a sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of players who clear this only got lucky, or used those pesky meta builds that completely neutered the challenge in the first place.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Yeah. Ten or twelve times, if I recall. 

[(PSN)Fatestorm]

16 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I just did the alert. I went PUG and brought Inaros and a Jat Kittag, knowing neither could properly cheese the jug, because I wanted to see what a beautiful disaster it could truly be in a PUG. I got a Valkyr who was mediocre and being outdamaged by a Limbo, and an Octavia who "thanked us for the carry" at the end. And yet we won handily. Yes, there were lots of revives all around once the Juggy arrived, but we killed him with our operators in probably like ten minutes max.

 

I also went into this alert with Inaros + Jat Kittag, since that's my normal 'bopping around' build and I didn't realize there would be a juggernaut, since there's never a juggernaut for Infested Defense.  My party did fine through the waves, and we were all gathered around the cryopod at the end, waiting for the victory screen to appear.  Then the juggernaut popped, which surprised us, and as we went to attack, it needled three people to death at once.  Then the other, then the cryopod we were all standing around.  Fail.

 

So, no, the surprise wasn't 'fun'.

[Callmeshirley]

18 minutes ago, Purrprika said:

This is a pretty good example of poor gameplay design. I just started playing the game a few days ago and I think I'll chip my two cents into the ring.

For example, the main gate for actually beating the enemy is knowing that you're going to be actually fighting something like that at the end. (most peoples first mistake was made here, but this is the fault of the developer as well for not informing the player)

The second problem is the fact that very few actual builds will function against it, and most of them are "gear-check" options that insure you have to have a select handful of frames with specific equipment to manage the challenge okay.

An example of good gameplay design would be something like a bow only mission in which an enemy spawns at the end that is immune to status effects, moves super quickly, and projects an aura of where it was going to be moving in the next few seconds in front of it. This would give you enough of a reaction time to accurately gauge where you would need to fire with the bows in order to hit the target successfully and complete the mission.

A bad example of the above would be something like a super fast enemy in a bow only mission that is immune to status effects. You have to give your players some level of information so that they can figure out how they're supposed to beat the mission. The juggernaut mission doesn't really do that well, because all it does is throws a lump of instagibbing armor-health at you and expects you to deal with it. If there were for example, areas which you could lure the juggernaut which would corrode the armor that it has off of it and stun it for a second or two so you could get a few hits in, it would encourage the players to adapt to the situation and not be extremely reliant on the gear that they happen to be wearing at the time.

The important thing in a challenge shouldn't be 100% equipment. It should be a balance of skill and player agency. A challenge isn't a challenge if only the top 10% of players have the equipment to deal with it. If that was the case and you were designing around it, then multiple instances of the mission should have been created for different brackets of mastery to accommodate peoples level of equipment / experience. This would allow lower mastery players to get rewards too, while scaling down the level of the content to accommodate for their lack of equipment / experience.

I just wrote out this long post with a bunch of points against literally everything you said, and then i remembered that you've only been playing for a few days and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and how amazing this surprise was.

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Fatestorm said:

 

I also went into this alert with Inaros + Jat Kittag, since that's my normal 'bopping around' build and I didn't realize there would be a juggernaut, since there's never a juggernaut for Infested Defense.  My party did fine through the waves, and we were all gathered around the cryopod at the end, waiting for the victory screen to appear.  Then the juggernaut popped, which surprised us, and as we went to attack, it needled three people to death at once.  Then the other, then the cryopod we were all standing around.  Fail.

 

So, no, the surprise wasn't 'fun'.

It was fun for me. 

The reason your whole squad went down is because you probably all tried to melee rush it at once. That never works on a jugg at any level. 

If you don't have ranged weapons, and you don't have the right melee to take out juggernaut at a distance, you always have void laser. 

[Vox_Preliator]

So what I'm hearing is...

"If you don't prepare properly, it's difficult"

The only objectionable thing I can see is that there wasn't a warning before the mission.  If you failed on your first go, that's on them.  If you failed on your second, that's entirely, 100% on you. 

[(PSN)HarryMuff]

Ours got stuck under the platform so we just spun our Lesions with Primed Reach until we didn't see any more damage numbers. Took Slova anyway to make it easier.