ScribbleClash Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 17 minutes ago, LSG501 said: If all you're doing is logging in for 5 mins just to get the login counter so you can get the higher login rewards does this not show say something about how poorly thought out the amount of days needed for certain items is..... is that really any different to having some sort of 'catch up' system in place when you hit a certain point in the game, because lets be realistic here, you're not playing the game if it's just logging in and signing out again. It is very much not the same, if I had to do a task 50 times and someone else can do it once to get the same reward. 17 minutes ago, LSG501 said: Considering we have people complaining about needing something to do or end game when you get to higher levels, which lets be honest doesn't take much more than a year even if you're taking your time, we then get time gated stuff that's you need to wait nearly 2 years to get.... while I know DE likely wants players to stick around as long as possible one of the biggest complaints about this game is the sheer amount of grind that's stuck in it and these two issues combined are likely the main reason I see lots of my friends in game having not logged in for months. Logging in isnt a grind and changing the mechanic would not improve endgame in the slightest. I don't even know why you chose to mention endgame here. Again, the rewards do not matter in terms of capability to participate in any stage of the game. 17 minutes ago, LSG501 said: Now don't get me wrong I couldn't care less about getting the zenith other than the fact I have a riven for it and the MR value because everyone seems to say it's pretty rubbish and I don't really need a primed shred (although as stated it can basically replace two mods and potentially give you another slot... so power creep just from starting the game earlier) because I go through ammo fast enough as it is with the normal shred but that still doesn't stop me from seeing the time that is required to get them is too long considering what they are. While the argument that everyone can get it is valid it's not really a fair one considering there is no way of getting it other than logging in every day for nearly 2 years... How is it unfair to just people who started off just about now, but totally fair for those who already put the ammount of logins behind them? They don't have an unfair advantage that you never will get to level on. Prove to me that any of the rewards is necessary to play the game, then we can talk. (Oh right, can't play the game without that sigil! Totally destroys fashionframe!) A "catching up system" would A) need to be available to all, destroying the idea of catching up by putting people who are ahead further ahead B) have to be scheduled and therefor is possible to miss C) Stretch the milestones further away to balance things out, making the whole concept moot This is a terrible idea. There shouldn't be a mechanic that benefits selected player and definetly nothing that rewards not playing the game! All in all, such a thing would only alter daily logins to monthly logins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharm Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said: It is very much not the same, if I had to do a task 50 times and someone else can do it once to get the same reward. Logging in isnt a grind and changing the mechanic would not improve endgame in the slightest. I don't even know why you chose to mention endgame here. Again, the rewards do not matter in terms of capability to participate in any stage of the game. How is it unfair to just people who started off just about now, but totally fair for those who already put the ammount of logins behind them? They don't have an unfair advantage that you never will get to level on. Prove to me that any of the rewards is necessary to play the game, then we can talk. (Oh right, can't play the game without that sigil! Totally destroys fashionframe!) A "catching up system" would A) need to be available to all, destroying the idea of catching up by putting people who are ahead further ahead B) have to be scheduled and therefor is possible to miss C) Stretch the milestones further away to balance things out, making the whole concept moot This is a terrible idea. There shouldn't be a mechanic that benefits selected player and definetly nothing that rewards not playing the game! All in all, such a thing would only alter daily logins to monthly logins. This, all of this. And on the topic of endgame, people were pushing survival missions and defense just as long if not longer way back when I first started 5 years ago. If this is your endgame and you think an extra few% from primed fury etc will help you kill more things at high levels than just throwing a berserker on and getting even more attackspeed than primed fury gives.. (and i have primed vigor maxed too and theres literally nothing that I want to use it on) more the power to you, but it's not going to change anything in your endgame. None of the login weapons are really "endgame" besides the zenistar which to be honest will only be useful for cc procs. I have the zenith, and a great riven for it too and guess what? It's still slower at stripping armor than the paracyst or the hema, and it's critical damage does almost nothing to high level enemies. It's a starchart/sortie weapon. Not an extended run weapon, at least not optimally. As I said earlier, these login rewards are rewards. Rewarding you for dedication to the game when you log in each day. They aren't must haves besides the status symbol of saying "i have x weapon" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickshotMcGee Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 hours ago, LSG501 said: While the argument that everyone can get it is valid it's not really a fair one considering there is no way of getting it other than logging in every day for nearly 2 years... How is it NOT fair, though? The people that are going to get it in a month have logged in for nearly two years Every. Single. Day. They waited for it, and they waited a long time. They didn't wait with the knowledge of what it was, but they waited nonetheless. How is it fair to those people if someone else gets it in a fraction of the time they took to get it? How the hell is it fair to those who DID log in for two years when someone gets the SAME rewards in 6 months? Short answer: It's really, really not. Everyone has to wait the exact same amount of time to get the exact same rewards. The only difference is that now you know what they are and you're salty that you can't get them immediately. People asking for this are just impatient for no reason. If people before now were force to wait for it, everyone should be forced to wait for it. You might not see it as fair, but the fact is that it couldn't be any more fair. It would be unfair if there was a way to get it faster, because that would laugh in the face of the people who did wait for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobistober Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said: snip Everyone has to wait the exact same amount of time to get the exact same rewards. The only difference is that now you know what they are and you're salty that you can't get them immediately. People asking for this are just impatient for no reason. If people before now were force to wait for it, everyone should be forced to wait for it. You might not see it as fair, but the fact is that it couldn't be any more fair. It would be unfair if there was a way to get it faster, because that would laugh in the face of the people who did wait for it. This. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) This game was/is supposed to be about equality of all players when it comes to fighting the enemies (I'm skipping fashion frame because that's different), it's something DE has made a point about on numerous occasions and the fact that some players can get mods which can give power creep just because they've been here longer is wrong. It's not like we have an issue with damage balance and power creep or anything... No item in this game should be kept behind artificial 'walls' because there are plenty of players who have logged in a lot less but done more hours in the game than those that are just doing the 'log in log off' dance to get the day counted. I also don't see how anyone can say that just logging in and leaving makes them 'worthy' of their reward because that isn't playing the game, it isn't being part of the game community... it's basically just sitting there waiting for their free gift which they'll likely level in a day and then go back to their 'holding pattern'... which if you know how to code can be done with a script with no interaction from the player whatsoever.... And it's not salt that I can't get them in my case, I've only got another 230 days to go for my primed shred and I've already said that primed shred isn't of much use to me (I'd rather not keep running out of ammo) plus the zenith seems to be little more than mr fodder. My primary issue is the amount of time needed to actually get said rewards when realistically for a lot of people this game runs out of stuff do in under a year.... No other game that I've played has had this sort of duration required to get a 'special reward' that can impact gameplay, yes there have been cosmetics but there's never been a weapon, mod or similar type of item. Edited May 23, 2017 by LSG501 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScribbleClash Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 hour ago, LSG501 said: This game was/is supposed to be about equality of all players when it comes to fighting the enemies (I'm skipping fashion frame because that's different), it's something DE has made a point about on numerous occasions and the fact that some players can get mods which can give power creep just because they've been here longer is wrong. It's not like we have an issue with damage balance and power creep or anything... Sure, while we are at it, do you want a Gorgon Wraith, some non-Baro event mods, all the different Primed mods (that only some come in every two weeks, how's that for waiting) a Hema and maybe Excalibur Prime with that? Sorry but I'm really really tired of your 'arguments'. You've so far not given me any reason that is actually making me consider this as an option. Additionally, if it isn't any work, then why do we have to make it easier? And again, these items are not a requirement for ANY content in the game. If you can prove to me, that you will need them to succeed in the game and it is impossible to do otherwise, then I got to say: Move those out of the daily table. I am certain you can't do that though, in fact, I bet there's plenty evidence on the contrary. For me this discussion is over. Good luck with your attempt, as I do not see it as a possibility (just think about how they've dodged hema cost/ignis wraith bp). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrotSalad Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Im about to reach 600 days. I wouldnt be bothered if DE followed through with your suggestion of a catchup day. However it would suck for allot of players who have remained loyal and gone to the effort to not only login, but keep thier client up to date for all this time. I think DE would need to offer something to those loyal for all this time if they did add a catchup system. For some its not just 5 minutes to meet the login rewards. Theres been some huge updates that at times took hours to download. The launcher being as it is also means that we cant multitask while updating I think if the OP is after a particular item from the login rewards then they should instead make a post detailing alternative ways of obtaining those items. I think the system is fine how it is. The only thing i dont like about the system is prime mods being in daily logins. I think thats a step too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)SaintRain459 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I'm on day 500 as of today and I am so sick of these entitlement posts. How hard is it to log in for two minutes a day then log off? And the rewards are not required to play the game- they're things given to you for the effort you put in to logging on everyday. They're extra things to expand your arsenal slightly further. The funny thing is when they first introduced this log in system, it was accumulative which means if you missed a day, you started at zero again. So be happy you have it the way it is now and keep going forward like everyone else. You can't expect to get the same things that someone who's been playing since day one of warframe has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 hour ago, (PS4)SaintRain459 said: I'm on day 500 as of today and I am so sick of these entitlement posts. How hard is it to log in for two minutes a day then log off? And the rewards are not required to play the game- they're things given to you for the effort you put in to logging on everyday. I'm not singling you out though i quoted your post -- but its an oft repeated argument. Huh? how is logging in "effort"? Actually playing the game is effort. The catchup system could be tied to hours spent IN MISSIONS (not ship/relay/dojo) etc. I'd say its far more effort to actually play 3 hours every day for a month than spend 5 minutes logging in every day for 2 years. There are plenty of people who are far more active and have put in far more hours actually playing the game than many of these "veterans". I don't care one way or the other for myself I can't imagine but this "effort" is benefitting DE in the least where as people actually putting in hours playing the game does. So no catchup - just change it to hours in-mission rather than daily login and no one would have grounds to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharm Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 9 hours ago, LSG501 said: This game was/is supposed to be about equality of all players when it comes to fighting the enemies (I'm skipping fashion frame because that's different), it's something DE has made a point about on numerous occasions and the fact that some players can get mods which can give power creep just because they've been here longer is wrong. It's not like we have an issue with damage balance and power creep or anything... No item in this game should be kept behind artificial 'walls' because there are plenty of players who have logged in a lot less but done more hours in the game than those that are just doing the 'log in log off' dance to get the day counted. I also don't see how anyone can say that just logging in and leaving makes them 'worthy' of their reward because that isn't playing the game, it isn't being part of the game community... it's basically just sitting there waiting for their free gift which they'll likely level in a day and then go back to their 'holding pattern'... which if you know how to code can be done with a script with no interaction from the player whatsoever.... And it's not salt that I can't get them in my case, I've only got another 230 days to go for my primed shred and I've already said that primed shred isn't of much use to me (I'd rather not keep running out of ammo) plus the zenith seems to be little more than mr fodder. My primary issue is the amount of time needed to actually get said rewards when realistically for a lot of people this game runs out of stuff do in under a year.... No other game that I've played has had this sort of duration required to get a 'special reward' that can impact gameplay, yes there have been cosmetics but there's never been a weapon, mod or similar type of item. None of the mods here are powercreep. I don't see where a primed fury is stronger than a berserker mod on fast attacking crit weapons. Which face it.. is how people keep naramon active for "endgame" melee. For everything else theres maiming strike. Primed vigor is half the stats of both redirection and vitality making it still just a bonus mod if you have room. Not a replacement for these. Not a single time since i recieved and maxed it have i found a use for it over vitality. All of the weapons are gimmick weapons, while strong are definately not powercreep. The zenith even came out weaker than a braton prime and needed to be buffed. None of these weapons are really useful after sortie levels and are outclassed by others. I havent heard of primed shred but if thats a thing coming well we'll cross that hurdle when we come to it but its half a year away, who knows what updates will happen by then. Would think after 3+years you'd be already killing things easily without crying power creep in an already 1 shot 1 kill game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MudShadow Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, (PS4)SaintRain459 said: I'm on day 500 as of today and I am so sick of these entitlement posts. How hard is it to log in for two minutes a day then log off? And the rewards are not required to play the game- they're things given to you for the effort you put in to logging on everyday. They're extra things to expand your arsenal slightly further. The funny thing is when they first introduced this log in system, it was accumulative which means if you missed a day, you started at zero again. So be happy you have it the way it is now and keep going forward like everyone else. You can't expect to get the same things that someone who's been playing since day one of warframe has. Well nothing is required to play the game. I mean someone can clear the star chart with 100p worth of mods. The point is though people play this game to get optimal gear. And time-gating Primed mods by 600 days (2 years... 2 friggin years of login in every day to get the optimal primed mod for your primary weapon) is about the most unreasonable thing I've seen in any mmo/loot fest video game. Edited May 24, 2017 by MudShadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeMonster42 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, MudShadow said: Well nothing is required to play the game. I mean someone can clear the star chart with 100p worth of mods. The point is though people play this game to get optimal gear. And time-gating Primed mods by 600 days (2 years... 2 friggin years of login in every day to get the optimal primed mod for your primary weapon) is about the most unreasonable thing I've seen in any mmo/loot fest video game. Meanwhile the vets will be using things like this and then telling others to "git gud". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharm Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 29 minutes ago, PrwnStar42 said: Meanwhile the vets will be using things like this and then telling others to "git gud". Vets will be using naramon, hema, ak stillettos and galatine prime and laughing at all the silly people crying for login mods while they happily sit perma invis while having no trouble killing everything. Or just playing octavia cus she does all that on her own without any of the login rewards. These arent even optimal mods. Theyre optional mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LycanPT Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Meanwhile I don't even have zenistar and I have around 1500h on WF, I guess you are much more worth than me just because you started to play sooner, personally I don't approve the idea of content other than cosmetics locked based on time. Weapons are worth 3k of MR and shred is simply a must in pretty much every automatic rifle and semi-auto. Then you say: oh but you can use the punch through mod or fire rate mod already... like there is any @(*()$ comparison between having 2 stats improved in a single mod than having to let out mods to fit other mods just to get the same effect as primed shred. But this is excalibur prime argument as well... cause some people think they are special just because they found out sooner about the game and spent some bucks the same way many players done after that, maybe even more that founders and still have no way of obtaining excalibur prime and the other items with it. The fairness they claim is false and just proves how special some people believe they are as for there are many regular excalibur players that actually have a better understanding and use of that frame. I wouldn't even mind if you had to pay real money to get excalibur PA as long as there was an actual option to get that content. As for the argument of that being special because those players helped launching the game, they are not more important than the others that keep supporting and helped expand the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaliazane Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 They kinda shoot themselves in foot with this login system, it was all fine and dandy for first 100-200 days. At this point some good mods will be locked behind 600 days waiting timer, it's not a good idea and I say that as someone who is only few days behind max possible login number currently. It's fine when it's some weapon at 500 days, but to lock good primed and untradeable mods behind time gate like this....I don't know about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viedra_Lavinova Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Catch up is more unfair to the players that have already got the stuff while logged in legit dedication. It should really alternate every 100 days to pick a primed mod or weapon. Cosmetics can stay to show how dedicated you are. These long winded logins are unfair to new and returning players. Why restrict something to a small percentage of the community and waste drive space on everyone's computer? Pick your own reward is more fair than catch up because you are getting rewards at the same speed as everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 On 23/05/2017 at 8:36 AM, MortalMercenary said: So it has been brought up that it would be a good idea for a sort of Daily Login catch up system were every so many months there is an event of sorts that allows newer players/players who have been around for a bit a chance to catch up to those who are at the absolute max login days. As we all have lives and stuff like funerals, graduations, vacations, illness pop up from time to time making it impossible to keep on track with the daily login. This system would give players like 20-50 days boost not giving you any of the daily rewards and only hitting any milestones(every 50 day rewards). For those who are at max login days they could be awarded the equivalent to a 50 day marker i.e. a Orokin Catalyst and Reactor or something DE views as equal to a milestone. This system would allow for the things DE has made to not just be used by a rare few and all the development time that went into making the weapons not going to waste. On 23/05/2017 at 8:57 AM, zNightWolfz said: No im sorry i disagree why should there be a catch up How does that make it fair to people that waited 300 or 500 days to get a item. I think you are both wrong. You are looking at the login system as almost a "competition" where some win and some lose by their only ability being nearness to a PC. The system exists on it's own, as an "extra", and should be totally ignored. If you can get on, great, if not, NOTHING IMPORTANT CHANGES. I can't believe people get so hung up on not having something another person seems to have. RL must be a really horrible place to exist for them if that is the case, because it happens constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 (edited) As someone who is very behind... no. No catch up. Defeats the whole purpose. None of the items will break your gaming experience to not have them. Just log in every day if you can, even if you aren't playing, it's what I try to do. You'll get it all eventually, even if you never catch up to others. I think some of you guys are forgetting that this really is just extra stuff. You don't NEED any of this... none of it is particularly gamebreaking or anything. It's just an incentive to log in every day. If there is a way to catch up, there goes the incentive out the window... Edited May 24, 2017 by Tesseract7777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I'm fairly sure they put mediocre items in the login rewards just to avoid threads like this. IMO Zenistar was an accident and the rest is nothing special. Including the upcoming 600 day login. You're not really missing out on much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LycanPT Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Xzorn said: I'm fairly sure they put mediocre items in the login rewards just to avoid threads like this. IMO Zenistar was an accident and the rest is nothing special. Including the upcoming 600 day login. You're not really missing out on much. except primed shred actually boost your damage both single and multi target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, LycanPT said: except primed shred actually boost your damage both single and multi target *Conditionally boost your DPS for single OR multi target. Shred is not very useful for crit-based weapons that are being used optimally since it's unlikely to hit a target behind the head of your current target. At +55% RoF it's considerably lower than Vile Acceleration and lower than what you'd get with a head-shot. So in the case of being a single target DPS increase, it's unlikely to also be a multi-target one. It's either or but rarely both. The only way to make good use of Punch-Through is with body shots, so P. Shred is going to be a good choice for weapons like Supra Vandal which have a poor head-shot rate to begin with. Otherwise you'd just about always be better off with Vile Acceleration, even for the non-crit x2 head multiplier. The additional +1.0 Punch-through will yield one additional target struck but only if that shot is going though a slim area like the waste of a Grineer. That leaves a pretty small selection of weapons and/or conditions where P. Shred is going to show any real difference at all. I don't see how that's missing out on much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LycanPT Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, Xzorn said: *Conditionally boost your DPS for single OR multi target. Shred is not very useful for crit-based weapons that are being used optimally since it's unlikely to hit a target behind the head of your current target. At +55% RoF it's considerably lower than Vile Acceleration and lower than what you'd get with a head-shot. So in the case of being a single target DPS increase, it's unlikely to also be a multi-target one. It's either or but rarely both. The only way to make good use of Punch-Through is with body shots, so P. Shred is going to be a good choice for weapons like Supra Vandal which have a poor head-shot rate to begin with. Otherwise you'd just about always be better off with Vile Acceleration, even for the non-crit x2 head multiplier. The additional +1.0 Punch-through will yield one additional target struck but only if that shot is going though a slim area like the waste of a Grineer. That leaves a pretty small selection of weapons and/or conditions where P. Shred is going to show any real difference at all. I don't see how that's missing out on much. Except you don't need to hit all HS with punch throught to make it work fine, I have no troubles using the most out of puunchtrhough even aiming for headshots, again +55% RoF + more enemies hit per bullet is clearly superior to +90% RoF and we even have to consider ammo economy for that matter and the higher the level the more important it gets. In endeless you usally pick a corridor to camp making this mod a must. So my experience and way of thinking don't support your claims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 35 minutes ago, LycanPT said: Except you don't need to hit all HS with punch throught to make it work fine, I have no troubles using the most out of puunchtrhough even aiming for headshots, again +55% RoF + more enemies hit per bullet is clearly superior to +90% RoF and we even have to consider ammo economy for that matter and the higher the level the more important it gets. In endeless you usally pick a corridor to camp making this mod a must. So my experience and way of thinking don't support your claims More enemies hit with each bullet is only superior when you cannot spend less ammo/time to down the same number of targets. +55% + conditionally enemies hit is not better than 90% RoF + head-shots unless you miss head-shots, since it's automatically x2 the kill speed or more. My point is you're not getting both head-shots and punch-through with any notable amount of rounds to consider counting the mod as both. It functions as both but from a damage output perspective it's one or the other 95% of the time. You don't need to camp a corridor until weapons that would use Shred have become inefficient to use regardless of Punch-through so I don't see the point in mentioning ammo economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LycanPT Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Xzorn said: More enemies hit with each bullet is only superior when you cannot spend less ammo/time to down the same number of targets. +55% + conditionally enemies hit is not better than 90% RoF + head-shots unless you miss head-shots, since it's automatically x2 the kill speed or more. My point is you're not getting both head-shots and punch-through with any notable amount of rounds to consider counting the mod as both. It functions as both but from a damage output perspective it's one or the other 95% of the time. You don't need to camp a corridor until weapons that would use Shred have become inefficient to use regardless of Punch-through so I don't see the point in mentioning ammo economy. Not all of us use tankier frames or perma cc, you can go mot in things like volt and need to camp earlier, when weapons are still very much efficient, in a corridor where enemies go in line at you and you need to dispatch them as quickly as possible, +90% RoF is not more efficient than +55%+punch through, and like I said just because you can't make it work doesn't mean others can't. I have no troubles in hitting HS with punchtrough on those lines of 3-4 melee units that rush you, it is harder on taller units which can be compensated by aiming down a bit and you would still dispatch more enemies quicker than going HS 1 by 1, not to mention the recoil on fast firing weapons where you rarely hit 100% HS only full spray Edited May 25, 2017 by LycanPT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 10 hours ago, LycanPT said: Not all of us use tankier frames or perma cc, you can go mot in things like volt and need to camp earlier, when weapons are still very much efficient, in a corridor where enemies go in line at you and you need to dispatch them as quickly as possible, +90% RoF is not more efficient than +55%+punch through, and like I said just because you can't make it work doesn't mean others can't. I have no troubles in hitting HS with punchtrough on those lines of 3-4 melee units that rush you, it is harder on taller units which can be compensated by aiming down a bit and you would still dispatch more enemies quicker than going HS 1 by 1, not to mention the recoil on fast firing weapons where you rarely hit 100% HS only full spray Well, I'm done trying to explain that bullets don't curve. This is where I walk away. Much like when you attempted to claim Trinity could survive better than Nekros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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