Request: More power cancellers

[Ryunokage]

As the title states, i'd like to ask for DE to provide us with a wider variety of options that allow players to cancel each other powers. In the same vein that using the Staticor or Pox allows us to cancel a limbo's stasis, if a player were to otherwise force passivity among anyone in his squad by using that combination.

I understand that it wasn't a deliberate decision on DE's part, but i still find that equipping a Staticor in my secondary is just too useful in certain map types to not bring one, especially if it means nixing any cheese right from the outset. This has however limited my load-outs and prevents me from using other fun and challenging weapons instead, like the euphona or aklex prime. An especially glaring concern now that we have combo-equipping on the horizon.

In either case, I'd like to ask for an expansion of such devices that give the option for other players to immediately kill off any other similarly cheesed builds, and prevent other players from forcing us to disengage and become passive spectators during games. Preferably something that fits into the inventory and is readily spammable.

[--Q--XFA]

I've been waiting for the grineer to have a really good one ever since the nullies came out.

[Arkvold]

2 minutes ago, --Q--XFA said:

I've been waiting for the grineer to have a really good one ever since the nullies came out.

You're missing the OP's point.

He's not talking about NPCs with power cancellation capability, he's talking about player weapons that can defeat powers that that prevent other people from playing (Mag's bubbles, Limbo's Cataclysm and Stasis, etc.)

[--Q--XFA]

i didn't read everything xD

[StinkyPygmy]

Are you just talking about people trolling with limbos stasis? Because you do know that any weapon can end stasis prematurely as long as the projectile cap is reached, right?

I can't really think of many other powers people can use to "force passivity" on others. Sounds like you're making this out to be a larger issue then it is.

Edited May 29, 2017 by StinkyPygmy

[shut]

Strongly disagree.

This would only invite needless trolling. There are a tiny number of abilities that are potentially detrimental to teammates (e.g. Stasis or Snowglobe, and only if your limbo/frost doesn't know what they're doing); a better solution would be to just make these abilities less annoying instead.

Edited May 29, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Airwolfen]

That would end up being Toxic as hell tbh.

[Elvangreen]

Just no, that would be pretty much PvP.....

EDIT: fix has been found, increase cap for pox/staticor in stasis to reduce trolling.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Elvangreen

[Ryunokage]

3 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Are you just talking about people trolling with limbos stasis? Because you do know that any weapon can end stasis prematurely as long as the projectile cap is reached, right?

I can't really think of many other powers people can use to "force passivity" on others. Sounds like you're making this out to be a larger issue then it is.

Other weapons don't have as low a projectile cap as the staticor and the pox, you can with the staticor reach the cap within a single magazine. Where-as i'd need multiple clips from an akstiletto to do the same.

And no, i'm not just talking about limbo stasis. Included in the list would be powers like the ember's world on fire, banshee's soundquake, spore saryns and so on.

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Strongly disagree.

This would only invite needless trolling. There are a tiny number of abilities that are potentially detrimental to teammates (e.g. Stasis or Snowglobe, and only if your limbo/frost doesn't know what they're doing); a better solution would be to just make these abilities less annoying instead.

Normally i'd agree with you, it is excessive to give us a means of doing that. Yet as warframe's community has demonstrated, players are far more able to find new exploits then DE has the time to fix them, fix technical issues and generate new content for us to play though. I mean look at the mag's pull, it took DE months to rework it, never mind the amount of time it took DE to act on complaints regarding the mirage-simulor combination, or tonkor spam that had been plaguing the game for years.

Something like what I described gives us a stop-gap solution in the interim while DE finds the manpower to fix the problem, while at the same time pushing such exploits down on the list of priorities.

 

[NinthAria]

Not that Warframe doesn't have balance issues, but the solution to balance issues isn't to give players more ways to mess with each other.

[StinkyPygmy]

22 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

Other weapons don't have as low a projectile cap as the staticor and the pox, you can with the staticor reach the cap within a single magazine. Where-as i'd need multiple clips from an akstiletto to do the same.

And no, i'm not just talking about limbo stasis. Included in the list would be powers like the ember's world on fire, banshee's soundquake, spore saryns and so on.

Normally i'd agree with you, it is excessive to give us a means of doing that. Yet as warframe's community has demonstrated, players are far more able to find new exploits then DE has the time to fix them, fix technical issues and generate new content for us to play though. I mean look at the mag's pull, it took DE months to rework it, never mind the amount of time it took DE to act on complaints regarding the mirage-simulor combination, or tonkor spam that had been plaguing the game for years.

Something like what I described gives us a stop-gap solution in the interim while DE finds the manpower to fix the problem, while at the same time pushing such exploits down on the list of priorities.

 

Gotchya.

On the topic on powers other than stasis: None of those things force or encourage passivity or being a spectator. If you are unlucky enough to get a min/maxer insisting on nuking rooms constantly on low level planets then sure, but thats been an issue in WF for as long as I can remember. Not only can it not be solved without taking away from powers heavily (which would turn the game on its head) its also very rarely an issue unless you pug it up with someone thats a bit inconsiderate. Finding some weird way for other players to actively cancel the powers of other players would be even more open to trolling. Occasionally getting a dodgy or inexperienced limbo isn't even close to the levels of salt that could be caused by allowing everyone to be able to cancel each others powers.

Honestly apart from stasis, any of the other powers you mentioned have a very minimal impact in the way you've mentioned. Hate the player, not the game. Because at this rate is sounds like you want the community to reach new levels of toxicity (I know you don't actually want that, tis sarcasm).

Edited May 29, 2017 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)decogold]

Disagree, this is just a criticism of Limbo masked with the title. Stasis doesn't have that large of a cap anyways and can be quite easily broken.

[Chewarette]

They just have to balance annoying spells.

Stasis has to go, Rift will forever be a problem, Mag's Bubble should get a "cancel" option (the same way Frost's 1 removes his bubble).

Anyway, this is a very isolated problem with a very narrow number of spells. So that's better to fix trolly spells rather than giving weapons trolly abilities.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Chewarette

[Jiminez_Burial]

33 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

And no, i'm not just talking about limbo stasis. Included in the list would be powers like the ember's world on fire, banshee's soundquake, spore saryns and so on.

You do know that solo, invite only, friends only and recruiting exists right?  If you can't handle the enemies on any of the three restrictive search settings, then you wouldn't contribute much in your scenario either.  People complaining about this sort of thing I am fine with, but don't argue the point for a mechanic that would screw more people over from trollish use than would be helped to a ratio of 20:1.  You're basically asking your annoyances to be removed while saying 'F*** you' to the many more people who would be hurt.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Starfreak911

[Airwolfen]

40 minutes ago, Elvangreen said:

Just no, that would be pretty much PvP.....

EDIT: fix has been found, increase cap for pox/staticor in stasis to reduce trolling.

The reason the caps for these are so low is because they easily tank low spec machines. So the cap was lowered so the stasis would blow before that point. 

[Xekrin]

34 minutes ago, Ryunokage said:

And no, i'm not just talking about limbo stasis. Included in the list would be powers like the ember's world on fire, banshee's soundquake, spore saryns and so on.

Banshee's quake I agree with but saryn spores?  Yeah it sure sucks to have every enemy's HP cut in half instantly.

This is  more a topic of what needs fixed in WF, we don't need in-game ways to cancel each others abilities, DE needs to accept and understand that certain abilities need to be fixed.  Wasting time adding ways to cancel one another out would be, well, a waste of time.

Octavia, for example, has issues with nearly every single other frame's abilities interfering with her mallet catching aggro.  Boy it sure would be nice if I could cancel nova's slow, ivara/equinox sleep, rhino's stomp, mag's magnetize, djinn's attraction, and a dozen or more other abilities that stop me from getting kills.

 

[GrimSoulis]

Just now, Chewarette said:

They just have to balance annoying spells.

Stasis has to go, Rift will forever be a problem, Mag's Bubble should get a "cancel" option (the same way Frost's 1 removes his bubble).

Anyway, this is a very isolated problem with a very narrow number of spells. So that's better to fix trolly spells rather than giving weapons trolly abilities.

Dumbest thing I heard since mags magnetize expiring creates an explosion like effect when it's duration runs out and being able to cancel that magnetize would be pointless and would take a huge chunk of damage away from her, also you can't even compare her magnetize to frosts snow globe since his doesn't have duration.

Edited May 29, 2017 by GrimSoulis

[Marine027]

How about you leave Limob palyers aloen who actualy do there job and help, and simply ignore Trolls who Troll on purpose.

Again the frame gets blamed while other people are the problem.

What about the Limbos actualy try to hlep and oyu accidentyl force his powers out ending wtih enemys one shottin`g you?

But sure we need easier ways to cancel his powers, beat the Trolls, not Limbo please.

[Chewarette]

1 minute ago, GrimSoulis said:

Dumbest thing I heard since mags bubble expiring creates an explosion like effect when it's duration runs out and being able to cancel that bubble would be pointless and would take a huge chunk of damage away, also you can't even compare her bubble to frosts snow globe since his doesn't have duration.

... And how exactly would that be dumb to give Mag a "cancel Bubble" tool that will detonates it at the exact moment you want instead of watching enemies crossing through it and then detonating on one random Moa ?

You cannot deny the fact that the Bubble preventing you to shoot at anything behind it can be annoying if that's not the purpose.

[GrimSoulis]

Just now, Chewarette said:

... And how exactly would that be dumb to give Mag a "cancel Bubble" tool that will detonates it at the exact moment you want instead of watching enemies crossing through it and then detonating on one random Moa ?

You cannot deny the fact that the Bubble preventing you to shoot at anything behind it can be annoying if that's not the purpose.

Because the more damage you put into her magnetize the more damage it does when the duration runs out.. have you even played mag.. cancelling it early would mean less dmg and against higher level mobs would cripple her. Also when your team is shooting it they're contributing to the dmg.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by GrimSoulis

[Mover-NeRo]

 

1 hour ago, Ryunokage said:

As the title states, i'd like to ask for DE to provide us with a wider variety of options that allow players to cancel each other powers. In the same vein that using the Staticor or Pox allows us to cancel a limbo's stasis, if a player were to otherwise force passivity among anyone in his squad by using that combination.

I understand that it wasn't a deliberate decision on DE's part, but i still find that equipping a Staticor in my secondary is just too useful in certain map types to not bring one, especially if it means nixing any cheese right from the outset. This has however limited my load-outs and prevents me from using other fun and challenging weapons instead, like the euphona or aklex prime. An especially glaring concern now that we have combo-equipping on the horizon.

In either case, I'd like to ask for an expansion of such devices that give the option for other players to immediately kill off any other similarly cheesed builds, and prevent other players from forcing us to disengage and become passive spectators during games. Preferably something that fits into the inventory and is readily spammable.

What exactly you aim to cancel? I get that for Limbos stasis but what else you want to interrupt?

Embers WoF ? Banshee Quake? Novas MP? Mags magnetize? Invisibility for other frames? ... destroy Octavias malets? Destroying Frost ice globes? Cutting Ivaras ropes ? Killing Atlas minions....?

Do you really think its OK to mess other peoples abilities?

 

EDIT: all I see is hate for one ability. If that one ability makes you always wear weapon to cancel it then you have serious problem. why not just leave the game.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Mover-NeRo

[Sziklamester]

If we could cancel each others ability then the game going wrong place. Abilities need to be balanced to not harm others ability usage and each party member can enjoy the game then. Hard to solve the issues on this but certainly not a solution to cancel others casting or cancel the ability itself.

With this power just remove all abilities in the game to not bother each other then the cry will altered into who using super meta weapons or not then we remove the weapons aswell and we just spectating and running through to the missions. Enjoy the gaming experience 2.0.

[Gremlin]

They should just make the abilities less impactful to other players instead. Or give players a choice to be effected by the abilities. As a pub player, I usually always leave when there's a limbo or mag. My preferred play style is just unplayable with them in the game. It's the only solution for playing with randoms ATM for me. 

[shut]

1 hour ago, Ryunokage said:

Normally i'd agree with you, it is excessive to give us a means of doing that. Yet as warframe's community has demonstrated, players are far more able to find new exploits then DE has the time to fix them, fix technical issues and generate new content for us to play though. I mean look at the mag's pull, it took DE months to rework it, never mind the amount of time it took DE to act on complaints re'garding the mirage-simulor combination, or tonkor spam that had been plaguing the game for years.

I get where you're coming from, but my point is that your solution would do more harm than good.

There are very, very few abilities that can be detrimental to teammates; with Stasis being one of the only ones that harshly hinders teamplay (even Snowglobe litter is a mild annoyance at worst). Implementing mechanics specifically let players get in each others' way is an extreme solution (and an easily abusable solution) for a relatively small problem.

 

1 hour ago, Ryunokage said:

Something like what I described gives us a stop-gap solution in the interim while DE finds the manpower to fix the problem, while at the same time pushing such exploits down on the list of priorities.

I think most of the "detrimental" abilities have solutions simple enough that this extra manpower isn't required.
Examples of simple solutions:

• Stasis prevents allied fire.                                                        --------------->       Stasis slows down ally projectiles by 90%. No more freezing.
• R. Blind causes unwanted finishers, interfering with melee.    --------------->       Finishers may be rebound to Use (X) instead of Melee (E).*
• Snowglobe litter interferes with allied fire.                               --------------->       Edit Globe's description to clarify that Freeze blows it up.**

* This can be a huge boon to Finisher-using frames as well.
** Snowglobe already has a 4-globe limit, making it almost a non-issue for teammates.

 

Of course, this is all kinda presumptuous for me to say, since these solutions might have technical issues or balance issues that I'm not noticing. But the point is, there are simple solutions that can solve these issues in one go.
A "stop gap" solution that might introduce more problems simply isn't necessary.

Edited May 29, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Ryunokage]

1 hour ago, NinthAria said:

Not that Warframe doesn't have balance issues, but the solution to balance issues isn't to give players more ways to mess with each other.

Mate, if you give most people the option of sitting on their arses, or getting back at the fellow spoiling their fun. They'd go with option 2 most of the time, i'd break out the torture kit.

@StinkyPygmy

The issue isn't isolated to the limbo however. It does need some context though so...

I tend to regard several components as being crucial to my enjoyment of warframe:

1. The tension of danger
2. Ability to respond
3. A minimum threshold of competence required to achieve success.
4. A low threshold for a failure condition

While the limbo's stasis knocks out all 4 of these features, other abilities do the same by knocking off one of those 4 conditions. So I regard stasis in the same vein as banshee's soundquake or a macro-spamming atterax user. In both cases, having one of them removes one of the conditions I regard as being inseparable from enjoyment.

This is not hard to achieve, giving me a set of powers that i can use to cancel out abilities or effects is a very effective means of allowing me to regain control and enjoyment of the game session.

Else, toxicity is admittedly something I am entirely unconcerned with. I view any person who impinges on my fun in anyway, as being toxic, whatever the reason may be. I'm perfectly fine ruining someone else fun if they should ruin mine.

@Mover-NeRo

See the above respond to StinkyPygmy, it covers your question as well.

@GrimSoulis

I actually agree with chewarette, while you raise valid points with regards to the way magnetise functions. I really don't care how the mag might feel or how efficient that player might be, if the map is so studded with magnetize fields that I can't get a single shot off. If the mag players refuse to be considerate, i'd like a means of forcing him to.

@Sziklamester @Ker-Blammo @SortaRandom

I agree with you chaps on all points, in an ideal world there are better ways and the solutions then I've proposed.

However as i mentioned earlier on, however simple or straight forward the solutions might be, history has demonstrated that DE still requires a large amount of time to effect them. Years in the case of the mirage-simulor, tonkor or telos boltace.

We are not in an ideal world, the sort of exploitation we've seen of these abilities its not only present, but widespread and in frequent use.

And while SortaRandom has raised a valid point, that including such a measure might cause more harm then good. But for people like myself and Ker-Blammo, Warframe is already unplayable, whatever trolling that might result from this being implemented isn't going to make the game any less problematic for me. If i have to leave mid-match because someone is intentionally using cancellers to negate my abilities, it makes no difference since I already have to leave mid-match if someone is using abilities to negate my enjoyment.