[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, verklickt147 said:

hmm - u can move - just do a bullet jump and cast it in mid air ... thats what i really like  - that everything can be casted in mid air...

 

im not going to bullet jump everytime i want to use penance. NT helps with increasing the casting speed but being able to run around and use it shouldnt be an issue either.

[(PSN)decogold]

My issue with Harrow isn't his abilities per say - it's his mechanics. The fact that a singular frame has to get the kills in order to distribute his buff is my main issue with him, teammates must sit idly by whilst Harrow murders everything... for what? A useless buff which the team cannot use as all the enemies are already dead? Yeah no thanks, i wouldn't request a Harrow for a team.

[jragonsoul]

On 6/29/2017 at 11:13 AM, SSI_Seraph said:

his 3rd ability is actually useless in a number of comps in that regard.

How are you supposed to kill stuff to provide your team with energy when an equinox/octavia/ember or any aoe is nuking everything you are aiming at, not to mention the fact that everything is dead by the time you are done charging a decent amount. 

He's also gated by the fact that if he can't kill something on higher level, he can't do his job correctly. 

In his current, he can't replace a trinity in organized play for high level content (clan event and such) or even be useful in regular play because of all the aoes available.

They should either make teamates in range of the thurible contribute to the energy gain with their kills or make it restore energy on headshot (not headshot kills/kills).

I think allowing teammates to proc his 3 is the best solution followed by also locking the ability to 50% of his current affinity range, including the boost from Vazarin maxing the range at 33.5 after Vazarin activation. This makes his only ability not affected by affinity range his 1 and at a 20 meter line that CC's it works well. With just the first change he'd be much better but with both of them it makes him great and frees up a mod slot.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, frokiller said:

Let me "Lol, bud" you there. For starters, vaaaastly different games, and second Brand is not a support, he is played as one because he has one stun and massive damage, that's it, it's the exact same situation as Annie or Vel Koz.

There are champions built to be supports, but many more champions than those ones can be supports as long as you itemize and play as one effectively. As long as Brand, Annie and Vel aren't robbing their ADCs of kills (simple enough if building support items), effective support is accomplished. This works at all ranks: for example, in a Semi-Final match in the World Championships 2016, a pro team called on Miss Fortune (standard ADC) as a support and won that game. As long as you blow up the enemy Nexus, hard-and-fast "roles" don't really matter. Yes, these are vastly different games, but it's the closest role-comparison source I have that I know fairly well.

1 hour ago, frokiller said:

Not to mention that there is no reason that the fire rate buff can't affect the squad

This I agree with. Why not let Harrow buff fire rate and reload speed (maybe at a percentage of his total buff) for the rest of team? I would like to see this. Though I must say, I find it pretty funny when players whine about having to compete for kills to charge 3, and demand having his 2 increase ally DPS, in the same post.

1 hour ago, frokiller said:

You say Harrow regenerates energy and health but he can only do that by damaging enemies, it's a unnecessary restriction that turns his abilities unreliable.

I doubt you will get much use out of it with only 300 hp.

Last time I checked, there's no shortage of enemies to damage in this game even a player is terrible at getting can't get kills. A decent accuracy (or poor accuracy with a high RoF or AoE) weapon will regen a whole pile of health very quickly. If you're using Penance where enemies can damage you, bringing Vitality will give you 740 Health and let you just sustain your health with the fire-rate boost (I use this against Infested). Alternatively, casting Penance when safe or behind cover (or during Covenant's invuln phase) keeps you alive until you can get Overshields back with Condemn. You can also keep a ready duration on Penance at all times for a perma-buffed Harrow and keep all allies in 50m topped off for Health as long as enemies are alive.

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

I honestly can't say nothing yet because I'm on PS4 soooo what's up guys

[DreamsmithJane]

12 hours ago, Kurambik said:

Firstly, I think that the bonuses from the kills (here I am including the health restore on Penance and the energy restore on Thurible) should not only come from Harrow's kills.

I strongly disagree with this. For one thing, people have called Harrow a "selfish" support, but there is no such thing. This is not League of Legends, where the support is supposed to avoid killing in order to get the carry fed. Everyone has guns in Warframe, and we're all supposed to use them and actively participate in the fight. Requiring Harrow to kill prevents him from being lazy and claiming that just showing up and recasting his buffs when they expire is contributing.

Perhaps more importantly, Harrow doesn't have easy access to nukes and unconditional damage amplification, so he has to plan and execute his kills skillfully, and that is the thing that gates his power. Just look at what happens in low to medium level missions when he brings a syndicate weapon. You can do a full channel of Thurible, and instantly regain all of your energy when a Sequence burst from your Lanka goes off. Alternatively, play Harrow with Nova, and watch your HUD bloom with healing and energy. Now imagine if better damage frames could do that just because Harrow was in the squad, and not because anyone did something particularly clever or skillful.

I think the whole point is that while Harrow, unlike Trinity, is able to do other things while healing and restoring energy, he is actually required to do so in order to be effective. Allowing him to defer to other members of the squad for killing would be counterproductive, IMO.

[SenorClipClop]

32 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You want energy? Better let the support, who is supposed to be giving you buffs to help you kill, do all the killing that he's supposed to help you do.

 

18 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:

teammates must sit idly by whilst Harrow murders everything

How exactly are you Tenno playing Harrow? I'll finish a game as him, having done maybe 15-20% of total damage and be 2nd or 3rd in kills, and my team will have been more-or-less full on energy as long as they stayed in the same room as me. Harrow doesn't need to take over the jobs of anyone, he just has to snipe the occasional headshot kill on literally any enemy.

37 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You want health? Better make sure you keep one guy alive in the area so the Harrow can shoot him otherwise you're getting nothing out of it

Why do you need healing if there's only one enemy left? Just kill it and get done with. The lifesteal is pretty good, even if it's just used for mending enemy Slash and Toxin procs.

39 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You want crit? Better make sure that nobody has used any CC on anything for a bit because you gotta make sure you take damage so you can deal damage back. Including the Harrow himself, by the way

I mean, yeah, don't pop 4 in the middle of a Bastille or a Stomp, that's just common sense. But really, just one Heavy unit attacking one ally consistently will get the meter up to the 50% cap. Harrow can either set it up himself or watch an ally's health bar and press 4 in response to their injuries. Harrow's execution is not foolproof, but I don't want to feel like I could be a complete fool and still make him work well. (Though I've made a fool of myself a couple times with bad comboing, my fault )

47 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Energy restore that relies on kills gets outscaled, particularly when you have to pick and choose who you let the support kill while the enemies get ever stronger. Reminder that using CC on those enemies reduces the effectiveness of Harrow's ultimate ability. As TTK goes up, Harrow's return on investment in Thurible goes down.

Lotus forbid that something doesn't scale indefinitely.

49 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

As long as Trinity has pure utility she will remain consistently the most used support frame.

I don't doubt that at all. Just like the last dozen or so Warframes, Harrow is completely unnecessary for optimizing the game unless someone figures out how to make Harrow fit a new meta. But that's not why we have new Warframes. We have new Warframes for fun and variety. I really like Harrow because I want to help keep my squad sustained, but I also want to kill things myself. I'm willing to trade optimal efficacy for slightly less than optimal efficacy if it means I can trade boring Trin gameplay* for high-octane John Wick funtimes. So far, my teams haven't had any issue with this.

Spoiler

"boring Trin gameplay" is an example for the argument (referring to standard EV build and play) but for me is a bit of a lie, since I build her high-Duration as a channeled melee bruiser.

 

[(PSN)decogold]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

How exactly are you Tenno playing Harrow? I'll finish a game as him, having done maybe 15-20% of total damage and be 2nd or 3rd in kills, and my team will have been more-or-less full on energy as long as they stayed in the same room as me. Harrow doesn't need to take over the jobs of anyone, he just has to snipe the occasional headshot kill on literally any enemy.

I mean in order to play at his full capacity - as it is based on a per kill system. Such a system is impractical and is extremely aggravating. 

[SenorClipClop]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:

I mean in order to play at his full capacity - as it is based on a per kill system. Such a system is impractical and is extremely aggravating. 

Then I ask again, how are you playing Harrow? Or maybe, what is your team expecting of you? Check out the basic math:

• It's pretty easy (I take it as standard) to have Thurible giving 10-18 Energy per kill (that's 40-72 Energy per headshot)
• Warframes run Energy pools between 150 and 700ish Energy. Any Energy gained past their max pool is wasted, therefore not needed.
• Energy pickups exist, giving back an okay amount of Energy throughout the mission.
• Most Warframes don't require crazy amounts of Energy, and some player like to do more than spam their most expensive stuff, even if they have an EV in the squad.

Unless you have a team of high-damage Warframes, all minmaxed for Strength against Efficiency, spamming ults all the time; or unless you're only charging like 5 Energy into Thurible at any given time; OR unless your team is energy hungry and forgoes anything for their own energy economy; OR unless you can't get headshots to save your life, then Harrow does not need to do even a noticeable fraction of the killing in mission to keep the squad reasonably happy. Yes, you can take Thurible into some pretty hefty extremes in terms of Energy regen, but it very much not needed. You can keep your team topped off on Energy as long as you get occasional kills and are accurate about it.

Edited July 6, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[Chipputer]

14 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

How exactly are you Tenno playing Harrow?

Exactly how you're supposed to. With all of the CC, AoE ability spam, and other people shooting targets you're lucky to get enough kills to yourself. Harrow relies on your allies backing off-- this isn't skill. This is bad balancing. This is on top of me having to waste my time locked in an animation while also wasting my energy bar spinning a flail before I then have to start shooting enemies.

15 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Why do you need healing if there's only one enemy left? Just kill it and get done with. The lifesteal is pretty good, even if it's just used for mending enemy Slash and Toxin procs.

That's the point. His healing is nigh useless much in the same vein of Winds of Purity Furis once you get to Sortie level.

16 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I mean, yeah, don't pop 4 in the middle of a Bastille or a Stomp, that's just common sense. But really, just one Heavy unit attacking one ally consistently will get the meter up to the 50% cap. Harrow can either set it up himself or watch an ally's health bar and press 4 in response to their injuries. Harrow's execution is not foolproof, but I don't want to feel like I could be a complete fool and still make him work well. (Though I've made a fool of myself a couple times with bad comboing, my fault )

I can't even get the full crit bonus in a Kuva Flood unless I'm reviving my allies. It's unreliable, at best, and forced, at worst. Either everyone has to hold completely still or everyone has to stop killing, in any party worth its salt, meaning there's no point in it besides the invulnerability (which is one of his only two utilities that scale).

17 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Lotus forbid that something doesn't scale indefinitely.

Numbers don't need to. Utility does, though. Why are CC frames useful? Their utility doesn't rely on scaling. Why is Trinity useful? Her skills don't rely on scaling. Loki, Ivara, etc, etc.

18 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't doubt that at all. Just like the last dozen or so Warframes, Harrow is completely unnecessary for optimizing the game unless someone figures out how to make Harrow fit a new meta. But that's not why we have new Warframes. We have new Warframes for fun and variety. I really like Harrow because I want to help keep my squad sustained, but I also want to kill things myself. I'm willing to trade optimal efficacy for slightly less than optimal efficacy if it means I can trade boring Trin gameplay* for high-octane John Wick funtimes. So far, my teams haven't had any issue with this.

Trinity is only as boring as you make her. I use a well-rounded build and refuse to use EV and I have just as much fun playing Trinity as I do playing Harrow as I do playing Loki as I do playing Oberon as I do playing Banshee as I do playing Equinox. The difference is that I don't have to tell my allies to hold back when I play anyone but Harrow.

His kit is contradictory and clunky, at best. He only needs a few tweaks that they don't seem to want to do. Give his 2 the ability to buff his allies and let his 3 benefit from ally kills at a much reduced rate. Balance will be preserved just fine and Harrow will actually be useful in a squad that knows what they're doing.

No, telling everyone to slow down does not mean that Harrow is high skill. It means Harrow is badly balanced. Much in the same way Limbo should not be dictating how others play, a support, especially, should not be doing so.

[SenorClipClop]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

With all of the CC, AoE ability spam, and other people shooting targets you're lucky to get enough kills to yourself. Harrow relies on your allies backing off-- this isn't skill. This is bad balancing.

If Harrow's allies need to back off in order for Harrow to get even the occasional headshot kill:

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

it's either because:

A: You are not involving yourself, so roll up your ninja robot sleeves and get in there; or,

B: your squad is far too overpowered for the mission, in which case your presence in that mission is completely meaningless no matter what Warframe you're using.

If Harrow can't use his hard CC and considerable damage to get a few occasional kills in, it's not just that your squad doesn't need an Energy mule, it's that they don't need a fourth Tenno. Period. Harrow's usefulness falls off completely in some cases, but those are the same cases in which any support -- any extra Warframe -- completely falls off. A support is meant to help turn a challenge into a victory, but they have no effect if there's nary a shred of challenge.

 

Spoiler

With the exception of the effortless, requirement-free, game-trivializing, easily-exploited Energy Vampire, of course.

 

[Drador-An]

Well the new buffs to Harrow is a step in the right direction, but I have some concerns with his kit. Here are some ideas that I think might help.

 

1: It might help if he had some damage reduction (Not like the invulnerability of his ult) so he can keep his shields up for his Penance.

He seems very squishy despite having 3000+ shields. (Maybe shield gating will help someday?) Maybe a stack-able DR on his Condemn.

For example, for every enemy he hits with his Condemn, he gets 5% DR to a max of 40%. (Effected by power strength to a max of 80%.)

The DR will go away when he uses his Penance. Still keeping with the sacrifice theme of Penance.

 

2. The Thurible buffs help, but why is it that this is his only support ability without the Affinity range? Feels like that would help.

Also maybe change it to where allies can kill for energy, but only the base amount. No head shot bonus.

 

3. One last small thing, maybe lower the cast time of his ult to 2 sec. instead of the 3 second cast. Just a tad bit too long.

(or make it where the timer doesn't start until his animation is done.)

 

Those where some changes that I feel like they might help. He seems to have a hard time keeping his shields up at higher levels so he can use his abilities

properly. This is just what I got from playing for a good bit.

Thank you everyone who read this!

[Oishii]

I feel like Harrow is a good frame, the problem is Trinity is so overpowered. It really becomes a design philosophy of what warframe is supposed to be whether he needs drastic buffs or not. At this point I have come to accept warframe isn't balanced and the game isn't supposed to be anything more than an ez mode casual game to burn time and relax and the devs have no intention of making it anything more.

Really he is a better designed and more balanced alternative to Trinity. It gives players the choice of adding more challenge to the game, yeah he can't compete with Trintiy, but Trinity can get boring with how strong she is. I wouldn't mind though if I didn't feel like if I had to compete with kills, that part is annoying and probably the biggest buff he needs.

I wish warframe actually did strive for balance and challenge, but I think it's pretty apparent after all these years balance and challenge isn't the point of warframe. Harrow is probably closer to what Trinity should have been if the devs were going for balance and challenge, but they aren't I mean you would almost have to do a complete overhaul of the game if that really was their goal.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Oishii

[Evanescent]

The big glaring reason I'm against this is that thurible will no longer work while penance is active due to it being channeled. This would be a huge nerf to Harrow.

[Pizzarugi]

Harrow is alright... up until you get teamed up with Mesa, resonating quake Banshee or Nidus, in which case you end up wasting most of your energy on your thurible unable to recharge your teammates, because they keep nuking entire rooms. His effectiveness shouldn't be dictated by how efficient he is at killing compared to his teammates. He's not supposed to be a competitive frame like Nidus, but that's exactly the mindset you need if you want to give energy to your team.

[Qynchou]

Ive tested him quite a bit in sorties and its truly a struggle to survive with various mod setups.

Harrow takes a lot of resources, a lot.

1 -  Is fine, the cone could be wider and duration longer but its possible to deal with it.

2 - Takes all of your survivability away as well as energy in exchange for lifesteal and reloads. That is a massive cost, it should either be shields or energy not both. Unless shield gating is a thing harrow needs some sort of added survivability off this. I'd suggest X armor per Y shields sacrificed, or damage reduction (including shields).

3 - With natural talent its managable but the cost is very high. you can use your energy to get a buff but then you wont have any left for 1 to get shields (which get blown up instantly above level 70+). Since youre out of energy you cannot use penance either.

4 - Punishes player for having long duration builds (which are absolutely essential due to how much energy harrow needs). I'd suggest reducing invulnerability downtime as well as starting the duration once your animation ends.

In short: massive energy problems, if you manage to build up shields they will either get blown up or completely removed by penance in which case you wont be able to build them back up since you just used a lot of energy with penance.

Needs easier energy management/shield gating.

[Borg1611]

I think they worry more about theme than the practical reality of how things actually play out, especially in a group setting. He's not the first and won't be the last frame to have clunky mechanics that just don't work in practice as well as whatever dev created them thought they would in theory, if they thought much about it at all. They don't seem to care at all whether a frame can compete with any other at any given purpose. Some frames come out like Nidus with some of the best survival tools in the game, a random new frame that can potentially be used at the highest level content (though he also has clunky mechanics that aren't group friendly that were never addressed), then others come out like Titania who have some minor gimmick (flying) to try to attract some players, but mostly garbage abilities that don't really work that well at higher levels of play if they have much of any use at all. Harrow was probably somewhere in the middle. I don't expect many mechanical changes given how many other frames had clunky or lackluster mechanics (even far worse than his) on release that still have them today.

Looking at Octavia, another recent frame... Her 1 and 2 still have major clashing issues, and that's two abilities on one frame. Her abilities still just clash with themselves... Even with decent duration on her you, can drop a 1 and leave it out alone before dropping a 2... then your duration on the 1 is half gone and you have your full duration 2... then the 1 expires and you can drop another, but the 2 that's still up that you can't get rid of will instantly just go pick it up before it has time to absorb much/any damage (most likely it won't absorb any as the 2 will roll towards it and CC everything before the 1 attracts any fire)... There was tons of feedback about this. They apparently didn't agree with any of it or had already  moved on to the next frame and didn't bother to fix the last one. Granted she's powerful regardless of the awkwardness of her kit, so it's probably for the best that they didn't give her too much more attention. 

Or we have someone like Titania that has redundant AoE CC abilities which are inferior to most other CC abilities (or even just harmful to a team since making everything float around isn't particularly helpful) and a group buff ability that provides mostly useless buffs in the most inconvenient way possible (making a squishy frame go in close to pick them up). Her lantern ability seemingly was just a test run for Octavia's superior version.

He's been released, got some minor tweaks, they will very soon be onto the next one and he'll be forgotten for many months before receiving any additional attention or changes, just like every other frame released before him. At least he's more useful than Titania!

[THeMooN85]

OK, so... I maxed him, gave him potato... and I have completely no idea where to put him? How to use him? Is he a support, tank, dd, healer? Nah. For me, he can be Ace of Spades. I cant see the path to direct him. For now even Oberon looks better compared with him. Sorry Harrow.

[Genoscythe]

Thing that are wrong with harrow, warning, strong IMO

 

Shields in genral are less than ideal to survive, a well done slash proc will still 1HKO this frame. Apart from that, the only practical use they have is increasing the duration of his 2, which brings heavily negligible buffs in most gameplay situations and even has a duration cap. I'd say make his passive that as long as overshields are active, he is immune to status to make it more viable in mid/endgame.

 

Now for the abilities:

1st skill: It's basically the slow and low-range, low angle, long casting version of Inaros' 1 with shield regen. It can or cannot be a viable way to improve survivability, but not that a 200 shields is around 2 supra bullets from a level 80 corpus tech. the CC if fine though and it's an acceptable first skill, even though you can't cast it in the air like inaros.

 

2nd skill: Very, very bad. 100% shield sacrifice for HP regeneration for a frame with one of the lowest base HP in the game. Firerate and reload speed are nice to have but nothing groundbreaking. The casting animation is eternal, the sacrifice too high and the gained buff good for what? Trinity can insta-heal all allies in exp-range, giving them resistance with a minimum casting duration. Harrow tries to be a weapon-augmenter frame but fails at it. The trade-offs are too high for this ability. Giving allies damage resistance with damage caused and over-heal would make more sense for this ability.

 

3rd skill: Again, a weapon-augmenting version of energy vampire. Now let's be honest: if your team runs into energy problems in the first place, are you playing with the right team? Again, eternal casting animations that lock you down from playing the game whiel a trinity can do the same thing faster, with more range and less casting animation. Especially because it's health on kills, what if your teammates can't kill stuff and still need energy? I don't see the point of this skill except the fancy thurible swing animation. It might just be coupled with his 2 to give energy according to shields sacrificed and he could receive a new 3 altogether.

 

4th skill: Well it's half cheese half buff. Before, DE tried to remove invincibility from the game, because once upon a time rhino's iron skin was exactly that, a 30 second invincibility phase. Now comes the good part: One get's crit from damage absorbed. Even if cheesy, this is by far harrows most useful skill, but the design is not too good, either. Probably some people love this ability but I think that DE have made the same mistake as 4 years ago. Yeah, it has a cooldown, yeah it has relatively short duration, but it's simply not fun to play. If you run into a group of strong enemies and get enough damage together to increase your cit, then what? Retreat and headshot them all one by one? In a normal group two things could happen:

a) the room dies before I even enter because teammates and nobody needs the buff because they are intelligent enough to bring a rhino, also nobody gets a buff because they get no damage

b) my group is not experienced and we get wiped, because as soon as the invincibility ends, the crit bonus won't help us anyway because we get the offensive bonus but actually need the defense

why not give the crit already while we are invincible?

Summing it all up, I feel like playing Harrow feels utterly unsatisfying to play and his abilities do not match the absolutely superior optical design he brings to the table. As a buffer, he is too unreliable and weak, as an offensive frame he brings no offensive power to the table and as a protector he does not protect well enough. Right now he has not much of a niche, most frames can do what he does but better. He also is not really a jack-of-all-trades frame because he is too weapon reliant (what do you do when you play a melee only mission!?). In the fast-paced gameplay of Warframe there is simply not enough time to hold on and pick off enemies pice by piece with headshots. On the higher equipment and skill levels players will just exterminate a room in a second.

[SteelSoldier]

I am going to have to agree with the fact that his abilities promote solo play and not teamplay, how is he suppose to be a support if he has to kill all the time in order to give allies energy? Why can't allies contribute 1-2 energy points everytime they score a kill as well while he has thurible on? Why does he have to do all the work? Pablo said it promotes passive play, but he already has a passive aggressive playstyle where he has to kill everything himself

[Borg1611]

Even though I have my doubts that they're even considering any mechanical changes since they're likely working on the next frame already... I'll just throw my 2 cents in anyway.

I think a compromise between the devs not wanting to make any changes that would feel like they'd add the possibility of a passive playstyle and his mechanics not meshing well in a group setting is to simply change Thurible to restore energy based on him dealing damage. The energy per shot could have a maximum value and a brief ICD to prevent fast weapons from being mandatory and to prevent it from going overboard into EV levels of restoration. Some have suggested to still have it be on kill but restore some amount of energy based on the damage he did to the target. My suggestion would be to just restore energy on hit. This would also allow it to provide reliable energy even into high level endless missions when enemies are no longer being one shot. While that would still allow denial of energy regen in situations where that one guy is just AoE wiping the entire screen, I think it would still be a significant improvement as you would no longer be fighting over killing blows and would be able to restore energy even when killing becomes difficult (or if you're fighting a boss with minimal trash). 

In addition to that, I also think the 25 energy cost should be removed and a decent minimum added to Thurible. That way it would prevent Harrow from being denied energy to the point of him running out, or if he did run out of energy, he'd still always be able to get energy back via attacking as Thurible would still be castable even while completely out of energy. It wouldn't be as effective as you wouldn't have any energy to fuel it to a higher value, but giving it a decent minimum and no up-front cost would alleviate the pain of excessive energy denial. It would also be a unique advantage in the energy restoration department as even Trinity can find herself below the EV casting cost. Trinity would still be the energy restoration queen in terms of output, but Harrow would always be able to restore some energy and get the ball rolling again, even after you all got drained to nothing. If you want an active playstyle, it seems like always being able to use your support abilities would be a great way to keep him active. You can always shoot your gun (well, if you have ammo...), but it'd be nice to always have access to your abilities as well. It'd also give him a niche of being a reliable counter to excessive eximus energy leeching. 

[EinheriarJudith]

On 7/6/2017 at 0:12 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Harrow is alright... up until you get teamed up with Mesa, resonating quake Banshee or Nidus, in which case you end up wasting most of your energy on your thurible unable to recharge your teammates, because they keep nuking entire rooms. His effectiveness shouldn't be dictated by how efficient he is at killing compared to his teammates. He's not supposed to be a competitive frame like Nidus, but that's exactly the mindset you need if you want to give energy to your team.

this applies to every frame that isnt a quakeshee or mesa or max range saryn, or max range equinox. i dont have issues with nidus so... the problem isnt harrow its pretty clear.

Edited July 8, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[EinheriarJudith]

10 hours ago, SteelSoldier said:

I am going to have to agree with the fact that his abilities promote solo play and not teamplay, how is he suppose to be a support if he has to kill all the time in order to give allies energy? Why can't allies contribute 1-2 energy points everytime they score a kill as well while he has thurible on? Why does he have to do all the work? Pablo said it promotes passive play, but he already has a passive aggressive playstyle where he has to kill everything himself

excuse me but that isnt a fact. 3 of his abilities effect the entire team and if im not mistaken if the enemy is not able to move or react then it is unable to shoot your team in the face too. what is a fact is that you have to have player input for them to work. its an opinion when talking playstyle really.

Edited July 8, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[jragonsoul]

4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

excuse me but that isnt a fact. 3 of his abilities effect the entire team and if im not mistaken if the enemy is not able to move or react then it is unable to shoot your team in the face too. what is a fact is that you have to have player input for them to work. its an opinion when talking playstyle really.

What is a fact is that Harrow is a better solo frame than he is a group frame. He has to do damage and get kills to be effective. I would generally rather have Trinity or Oberon currently. Even a Rhino or Inaros, since for CC and damage buff Rhino does it better and for CC and Heals Inaros does it better.

Rhino

1. A damage buff that increases ALL damage the WF's do (not just weapons) and can last much longer than Covenants

2. Insane range and long duration CC.

3. Can't make EVERYONE invincible but least he can always revive you. XD!

Inaros

1. Long duration and range, directional CC that opens enemies to finishers.

2. 2nd single stun that allows allies or him to regen health from

3. 3rd Multi target Stun that heals all allies in range.

Those are just two frames I thought of just off the top of my head. They don't do everything Harrow does but what they also do that he does they do so well he is completely outclassed by them. Letting WF's in range trigger and benefit from his buffs won't make him passive, It makes him a better team player and just a better WF, IMHO.

 

[jragonsoul]

5 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this applies to every frame that isnt a quakeshee or mesa or max range saryn, or max range equinox. i dont have issues with nidus so... the problem isnt harrow its pretty clear.

The issue is no other supports have to say "Hey, Mr/Mrs DPS frame, please stop killing stuff so I can support you, pwease!"