[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[Ocerkin]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm more than certain he was exaggerating. If you were playing this game for about 3 years, you'll remember that Frost's Ice Wave use to be in a line like condemn, and it was nigh useless. Even with the augment, it was a terrible ability. The only thing that brought it back was the rework that made it a conical ability. Then the augment became and amazing ability for crowd control. Without the augment, it's still a good temporary cc ability and decent damage. I can relate that situation so much to the present one. Make Condemn conical (or at least wider). Enough with the "get good" posts.

this guy gets what i was saying, man ice wave sucked back then

[-NTB-Cris0407]

Starting as! = DE Said harrow will sacrifice himself for the team. Thats an lie beacuse he does not. Only for himself with second skill...

Chains of Harrow: Hotfix 21.0.3

Harrow Changes & Fixes:

• Lowered the damage required per Critical Chance bonus for Harrow’s Covenant from 100 to 80.
• Harrow’s Penance now has a Duration cap of 60 seconds. 

You have killed Harrow for many people... (70% of Harrow for me is gone...) This was his magic long buff <3

Please don't do it... 

This cap 60S is bad idea, you'll always forget to recharge, fall out of the map=restart, nullifer=restart. (Why there are always caps?)

Make it long buff try to change the game by doing it, not this pattern of capping everything...

Or maybe somehow automatic refil on somethings?

(Make it toggle and let it drains Shields)

(Maybe for gaining overshield? Like +100 is converted +1 to this skill? This mean there will be synergy between 1/2 skill!!! (EVERYONE LOVE SYNERGY and you won't kill Harrow ;>)

 

 

And also please think about passive and shields one more time.

We only have "one"(1 good, 2 is ....) Synergy with passive.

Please add it more :<

Thurible =100 Shield = + 0.1 energy per second / 1.500 = + 1.5 energy per second

Covenant = 100 Shield = 10 Shield Per Second for everyone in affinnity range for duration of the buff.

The numbers are for you to change them however you want DE. Just please make his shields as passive more synergy.

 

Or just made it your own and please make Shields / Overshields more Synergy as affecting all skills 3/4 too in your own way.

Not making his passive able for only 1 Skill as 1 Synergy.

 

I mean 1 Synergy beacuse 1 Skill is gaining energy wich 2 is using them...

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Cris0407

[WhiteMarker]

Really? 60 seconds are not long enough for your? This killed Harrow for you? Seems more like you looked for an excuse to not play him anymore.

[Ocerkin]

im curious who in DE thought "OMG HARROW IS TO OP WITH A LONGER THAN 60 SECOND BUFF!!!!!  NERF HIM!!!!!!" when basically the entirety of the forums are saying he is underpowered and underwhelming, its like no one is listening. a long timer on penance is the LEAST of harrows problems

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ocerkin

[PsiWarp]

Aw, it was fun while it lasted. I think it should be 120 seconds like Titania's Tribute buffs, since we have to make ourselves very vulnerable for Penance to work a long while and Harrow's a squishy caster most times.

[Buzkyl]

Perprutal Vortex is an augment that can allow vauban to stack a Vortex to well over 200s.

At the very least harrow should be able to stack his Penance to atleast 100s

 

[-NTB-Cris0407]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

Really? 60 seconds are not long enough for your? This killed Harrow for you? Seems more like you looked for an excuse to not play him anymore.

Seems you don't have memory issue and play good enough to don't lose the buff...

Even good would be an indicator when half of the duration is gone.

[-NTB-Cris0407]

Just now, PsiWarp said:

Aw, it was fun while it lasted. I think it should be 120 seconds like Titania's Tribute buffs, since we have to make ourselves very vulnerable for Penance to work a long while and Harrow's a squishy caster most times.

Or my idea with synergy.

+100 Overshield is converted to +1s to this skill?

[Tesseract7777]

11 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

im curious who in DE thought "OMG HARROW IS TO OP WITH A LONGER THAN 60 SECOND BUFF!!!!!  NERF HIM!!!!!!" when basically the entirety of the forums are saying he is underpowered and underwhelming, its like no one is listening. a long timer on penance is the LEAST of harrows problems

DE is really frustrating me with Harrow. All anyone has said in the feedback thread is "cool concept but needs buffing, needs to be better at support, needs allied kills and damage to count, etc.". 

What does DE do? "We hear you loud and clear guys, we need to NERF HARROW!". 

Like... wtf? 

[Firetrucksrule]

1 hour ago, Ocerkin said:

just a heads up i actually edited my post prior to your quoting me you may wanna read it again.

also, to clarify about my last post, when i said at max i mean at MAX meaning over extended as well as stretch, which youd never REALLY need to run with harrow

i build for positive efficiency, and im not saying that i cant AFFORD to cast it, im saying that for efficiency of use it should have a better area of effect, i mean hell you can say oh you dont need to build for negative fficiency so lets make frosts powers a small ice spike instead of a wave, im not saying im having energy problems, im saying its for use in game while i play i shouldnt need to mash my 1 just to get a single group cc'd, there are SO many other frames with better CC than this, hell rhino, nezha, equinox, titania, just to name a few, and two of them arent even cc support frames as harrow has been built to be

There are better frames out there for CC, but there's no frame that can buff team crit chance, restore team health and energy like crazy, grant team invulnerability and CC as well as Harrow. Again I wouldn't be opposed to a small width buff but spam requirements are a reasonable trade off for the ability's auxiliary benefits and how it interacts with the rest of his kit. I tried testing out Harrow at Mot solo and he excelled largely because of his one. It can lock down enemies before they even turned the corner, it makes earning headshots for the energy childs play and it can stun reasonable groups of enemies on the end of his invulnerability. The enemy's movement being disordered in larger squads seems more or less equalled out by the larger spawns. It could use a small buff to his width but from how it performed for me in Mot solo I can see no real reason why it is in serious need of a buff, the ability kicks &amp;#&#33; even if it is a little spammy.

 

Just now, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm more than certain he was exaggerating. If you were playing this game for about 3 years, you'll remember that Frost's Ice Wave use to be in a line like condemn, and it was nigh useless. Even with the augment, it was a terrible ability. The only thing that brought it back was the rework that made it a conical ability. Then the augment became and amazing ability for crowd control. Without the augment, it's still a good temporary cc ability and decent damage. I can relate that situation so much to the present one. Make Condemn conical (or at least wider). Enough with the "get good" posts.

I do remember how useless Frost's ice wave was, but that's apples and oranges. Frosts ice wave stuck out like a sore thumb as the only actually useless ability on his kit. He's a big AOE monster and his Ice Wave in no way reflected that. Compared to the rest of his kit there were actually no real advatages to his Ice Wave, even his one was better with its augument. Frost also can actually scale decently with his 2 buff, Harrow doesn't have too much difficulty scaling so long as your weapons are good.

Seriously, how was this a git gud post? Someone complains that an ability, that in my opinion performs acceptably, needs a buff. They presented their argument and I gave a tactic that alleviates the issue. I obviously knew that "15 or 20" was an exageration, but it presented the situation as Ocerkin (and presumably others going by the thread) finding it significantly spammy and I presented my tactic that has consitently worked to stun crowds in usually about three casts for me. I've no logical reason to assume that 15 or 20 should be an exageration for three, so it seems clear that my tactic could be of use.

[-NTB-Cris0407]

17 minutes ago, Cris0407 said:

Chains of Harrow: Hotfix 21.0.3

Harrow Changes & Fixes:

• Lowered the damage required per Critical Chance bonus for Harrow’s Covenant from 100 to 80.
• Harrow’s Penance now has a Duration cap of 60 seconds. 

You have killed Harrow for many people... (70% of Harrow for me is gone...) This was his magic long buff <3

Please don't do it... 

This cap 60S is bad idea, you'll always forget to recharge, fall out of the map=restart, nullifer=restart. (Why there are always caps?)

Make it long buff try to change the game by doing it, not this pattern of capping everything...

Or maybe somehow automatic refil on somethings? (Maybe for gaining overshield? Like +100 is converted +1 to this skill? This mean there will be synergy between 1/2 skill!!! (EVERYONE LOVE SYNERGY and you won't kill Harrow ;>)

 

 

And also please think about passive and shields one more time.

We only have "one"(1 good, 2 is ....) Synergy with passive.

Please add it more :<

Thurible =100 Shield = + 0.1 energy per second / 1.500 = + 1.5 energy per second

Covenant = 100 Shield = 10 Shield Per Second for everyone in affinnity range for duration of the buff.

The numbers are for you to change them however you want DE. Just please make his shields as passive more synergy.

 

 

 

[Chewarette]

12 minutes ago, Cris0407 said:

Or my idea with synergy.

+100 Overshield is converted to +1s to this skill?

Yeah, unlimited Penance is clearly what DE wants. You should just ask DE to remove the spell and apply the buff as passive, that's the same as your request.

I don't see the point of complaining about this "nerf". Maybe you'll play with a bit lower Duration now, and you'll have to hit 2... once every minute, wow, what a big deal, literally unplayable

I'm more concerned about the fact they changed the numbers on his 4. I thought the rank 3 was too low, it appears it was the other ranks that were too high. Disappointed (a bit). But Harrow is still good and fun to play with right now.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chewarette

[Gsterman]

Harrow's problem is that he has to get kills himself honestly. 99% of the time when you use his 2 or 3 most enemies are already dead because you had to spend a bunch of time activating the ability. If you let his abilities be based on any kills by teammates that are in his ability radius then he would be much better. Right now there's ultimately no point in playing him because his abilities are completely ineffective most of the time.

And remove the duration cap on Penance, there was no reason to have that.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Gsterman

[Ocerkin]

1 minute ago, Chewarette said:

Yeah, unlimited Penance is clearly what DE wants. You should just ask DE to remove the spell and apply the buff as passive, that's the same as your request.

I don't see the point of complaining about this "nerf". Maybe you'll play with a bit lower Duration now, and you'll have to hit 2... once every minute, wow, what a big deal, literally unplayable

only reason im complaining about the nerf is because it seems back asswards compared to what they SHOULD be working on, which is implementing the changes 98% of the people playing him are begging for

[-NTB-Cris0407]

Just now, Chewarette said:

Yeah, unlimited Penance is clearly what DE wants. You should just ask DE to remove the spell and apply the buff as passive, that's the same as your request.

I don't see the point of complaining about this "nerf". Maybe you'll play with a bit lower Duration now, and you'll have to hit 2... once every minute, wow, what a big deal, literally unplayable

Really?

Im playing on 254% Duration.

This won't be unlimited... It will be with THING Harrow is the Shields... So this will force you to keep your shields up...

Well for new Penane you have to use 1 and 2 over and over and over...

With my idea this will be Synergy

[Tizodd]

I was just about to create a thread on this.

The 60 second limit makes no sense.  Harrow is a support frame and Penance is his only "heal".  Harrow has to find a safe spot and sacrifice shields to get the lifesteal buff.  By no means is this an OP ability.  There's no reason to nerf it by limiting it's duration.  A small lifesteal that sacrifices shields and takes two seconds to cast is already pretty balanced.

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

only reason im complaining about the nerf is because it seems back asswards compared to what they SHOULD be working on, which is implementing the changes 98% of the people playing him are begging for

Exactly. It isn't so much that this change is that big of a deal, but that their perspective is absurd. Harrow needs to be better at support, more of a team player, and instead they are applying nerfs to him? After what everyone has been saying is that he needs improvement? 

And it actually is a pretty bad change because, the whole point was "more shields means more duration", now what's the point? If you have decent duration mods you will probably not have to use much shields to reach the cap anyways. So that whole part of the mechanic that they designed is basically made pointless by their own spur of the moment knee jerk poorly thought out nerf.

And all while everyone is tell them that Harrow needs buffs... just ridiculous. I'm starting to wonder if they know how to make good frames anymore. 

Nidus and Octavia are very binary frames with very limited playstyles, and while Inaros is okay, two of his abilities are rarely if ever used and he is really clunky for the pace of Warframe. Maybe they should just stop making frames for a while, if they cannot make them right anymore. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[Ocerkin]

4 minutes ago, Firetrucksrule said:

There are better frames out there for CC, but there's no frame that can buff team crit chance, restore team health and energy like crazy, grant team invulnerability and CC as well as Harrow. Again I wouldn't be opposed to a small width buff but spam requirements are a reasonable trade off for the ability's auxiliary benefits and how it interacts with the rest of his kit. I tried testing out Harrow at Mot solo and he excelled largely because of his one. It can lock down enemies before they even turned the corner, it makes earning headshots for the energy childs play and it can stun reasonable groups of enemies on the end of his invulnerability. The enemy's movement being disordered in larger squads seems more or less equalled out by the larger spawns. It could use a small buff to his width but from how it performed for me in Mot solo I can see no real reason why it is in serious need of a buff, the ability kicks &amp;#&#33; even if it is a little spammy.

 

I do remember how useless Frost's ice wave was, but that's apples and oranges. Frosts ice wave stuck out like a sore thumb as the only actually useless ability on his kit. He's a big AOE monster and his Ice Wave in no way reflected that. Compared to the rest of his kit there were actually no real advatages to his Ice Wave, even his one was better with its augument. Frost also can actually scale decently with his 2 buff, Harrow doesn't have too much difficulty scaling so long as your weapons are good.

Seriously, how was this a git gud post? Someone complains that an ability, that in my opinion performs acceptably, needs a buff. They presented their argument and I gave a tactic that alleviates the issue. I obviously knew that "15 or 20" was an exageration, but it presented the situation as Ocerkin (and presumably others going by the thread) finding it significantly spammy and I presented my tactic that has consitently worked to stun crowds in usually about three casts for me. I've no logical reason to assume that 15 or 20 should be an exageration for three, so it seems clear that my tactic could be of use.

okay, so what you are saying is, because harrow has buffs he can give out, he shouldnt be able to defend himself with his power designed to allow him to CONTROL CROWDS?

 

spamming a power when having a simple cone would be more efficient shows a clear problem with his kits efficiency, they gave us a power to control crowds, that can not do that unless you spam cast it, how is this working as intended? it needs a cone, end of conversation

[AtoKitsune]

Harrow's not even close to killed with these changes.

I didn't even have a 60 second Penance with my preferred build. >->; He was and is incredibly powerful crowd control, buffer, healer, energy restorer. He's so versatile it's stupid.

So just hit penance once every sixty seconds and hit eight or so enemies with his first, your shields will return and you'll be able to cast it again. It takes like four seconds to get to max shields, there's no real point to having a Penance that lasts that long when you can execute it so quickly, especially with Natural Talent.

[-NTB-Cris0407]

4 minutes ago, AtoKitsune said:

Harrow's not even close to killed with these changes.

I didn't even have a 60 second Penance with my preferred build. >->; He was and is incredibly powerful crowd control, buffer, healer, energy restorer. He's so versatile it's stupid.

So just hit penance once every sixty seconds and hit eight or so enemies with his first, your shields will return and you'll be able to cast it again. It takes like four seconds to get to max shields, there's no real point to having a Penance that lasts that long when you can execute it so quickly, especially with Natural Talent.

You're right but don't you think his passive and his THING Shields / Overshields are not used enough?

 

Someone gave idea for 2 Skill to be toggled and it should drain Shields... > @Phyrak

Edited June 30, 2017 by Cris0407

[-NTB-Cris0407]

Consider making Penance an Toggle ability for draining Shields.

Example- Simple 50 Shields per second?

This will help players (With issues Memory, [They haven't seen buff is gone]) like me to don't worry about it.

[Rawbeard]

60s are too short considering buff resets like Nullifiers, or dropping off the map? this logic seems too advanced to comprehend.

[Me.KayOh]

knew there'd be problems with him ever since they demo'ed his kit.

for me though, i dont like the direction they took with harrow's abilities at all.

[Ocerkin]

2 minutes ago, Church002 said:

knew there'd be problems with him ever since they demo'ed his kit.

for me though, i dont like the direction they took with harrow's abilities at all.

was i the only one who noticed when they demo'd him reb had some kind of god mode on as she played? i saw harrows health go to what should have been 0 several times on stream and then instantly jump back to full without her doing anything to change it, no way penance was pulling that off in a million years

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ocerkin

[-NTB-Cris0407]

2 minutes ago, Church002 said:

knew there'd be problems with him ever since they demo'ed his kit.

for me though, i dont like the direction they took with harrow's abilities at all.

They said Harrow will sacrifice himself for the team and they forget about it. ( No synergy with passive = Shields )

The only sacrifice is on second skill so for him own...