Plains of Eidolon

[DreamsmithJane]

10 hours ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

To add to this, there is less daylight because of the tilt of the Earth in relation to the Sun.  During December, the Northern Hemisphere is tilted away from the Sun, leading to shorter days and lower temperatures.

I thought I covered that, but okay.

[SunsetChaos]

13 hours ago, SergeantSunshine said:

The Eidolons probably were once connected to some sort of hive, but after this

they probably aren't fully connected anymore, which could be why they're trying to find all their parts to connect again.

Imagine if they're actually connected to that Bleeding Tower in some way.

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, N64Gamefreak said:

What's with all these obscure acronyms?

"Title says it all."

And yeah, it's not common enough to be truncating it without context like that.

[BornWithTeeth]

14 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

It would be like having factions within the Sentients, but... didn't DE say that the Sentient can't be rebuilt? And the wandering giant fragments are like.... analogy: organs of a brain dead person?

They may work as intended... but the mind is gone.

Sooner or later, we are going to need a sane, whole, mature Sentient to step in and help end this. They are the most powerful creations of the Orokin, the only thing the Orokin made which could and did surpass their makers. Hunhow is mad, traumatised by his thousand year death, enraged over the loss of his daughter and the harm done to his self. The Lotus is self-crippled by her act of contrition, Natah is no more. If we can wake Eidolon and help it heal, maybe.

 

I can only hope that in Tau, there remain truly powerful, peaceful Sentients. Who knows what they may have become?

 

 

 

As a side note, it has become evident that one of the things which DE really need is some genuinely hardcore speculative and science fiction chops for their creative team, for a reason which I will outline as follows:

Everything in Warframe's plot and setting which appears truly alien, strange, and threatening at first tease is then fleshed out and revealed to be mundane, the normal-except-moreso.

The Sentients grow less alien and strange the more we learn of them. When we first hear of them, they are weird, menacing things, the Nightmare of the Orokin, as named by Alad, the Horrors beyond the Terminus, as named by Teshin. We get hints that they are a machine race, but they leave behind organic looking bones. The message screamed at us through the arcane codex was "All-All is silent- Hushed-hushed and empty is-is-is the womb of the sky. All is silent and calm. Hushed and empty is the womb of the sky."

Hunhow first speaks using a scorched and shattered avatar of the Lotus, and speaks about fulfilling The Sequence, talks about crossing the gap, wombs in ruin.

Up until the last few quests, the Sentients were frightening as hell, in other words. Then, well. These days Hunhow's characterisation is that he's an angry old man who just so happens to be a spaceship who launches fighter-drones.

 

The Corpus were initially presented as a machine cult, worshipping profit, technology, and Orokin trappings. Their upper boards and councils were mysterious. They came across kinda like the Spacing Guild from Dune (Plat must flow!). Then, the more quests they are involved in, the more they're revealed to be just an agglomeration of corrupt business concerns. No higher cult bodies. No deeper beliefs, no increasing pyramid of weirdness, no inner circle of enlightened operatives, no Guild Steersman possessing true insight. Just Captain Planet villains. Bloody hell, they even make glitchy, faux-eighties  a e s t h e t i c  investment trailers. Sweet Jesus.

 

 

Before the revelation of how they truly work and how they were created, the Grineer were fascinating. The game said that they were a flood of degenerating clones sent out from a hidden and toxic womb, their homeworld being a poisoned and barely habitable Earth. It told us that they had started a crusade to transform scattered colonies into an empire. That right there is interesting because you have to immediately ask the question of Why? What insane conditions are there on Earth that humans could only survive there by becoming eusocial creatures (i.e. breeding like a hive)? What the hell is going on in there? What insane pressures shaped them this way? If we go in, what will we find there? The other thing that was interesting was that it sounded like the Grineer had a real ongoing goal, one that they had just started on, that the Grineer were expanding outward from Earth and encountering the rest of the system, you know, just like the arc of the player Tenno. The game made it sound like the state of the Grineer might just have been something they did to themselves out of desperation, and which had driven them mad. 
  

Instead, the answer to the Grineer was "they've just always been the Grineer. The Orokin made them as a race of unintelligent clones, and unintelligent clones they mostly remain." The answer to the question of 'Who are the Kweens?' was "They're Orokin, hiding amongst the Grineer and using them as flesh stock", which is interesting in its own right....but just like Hunhow, on contact the Queens go from being menacing military antagonists to being Saturday morning cartoon villains, shrieking like Rita frigging Repulsa and making bad jokes about eating their hapless minions. Recall that cutscene in the early game, with Vor being criticised over commlink by the Queens? Two female voices in synch, sounding half robotic, with cold, disciplined anger as they outline their expectations and demote him for overstepping his orders? That one scene was better writing for the Queens than every single line the Worm Queen has ever uttered.

 

The Tenno themselves are an odd case of this. You carry out the Second Dream and rescue yourself from the Reservoir, and the game says "This is what your player character has always been. This Operator is and always has been the mind within the Warframes," and that's cool. It looks for just a moment like the game is saying "This creature is simultaneously a fragile child, and a centuries old warrior. This thing looks like a child, but incarnate in it is the mind of an inhuman ninja, assassin, bodyguard, operative of the Orokin. It is contradiction incarnate. Imagine the lifetimes of knowledge and carnage behind those baby blue eyes."

Then the rest of the quest writing kicks in, and the game makes it very clear that none of that is true, the Operator really is just a child. The story being told here is not one of how an inhuman killing machine rediscovers itself and comes back to humanity. It's just the Hero's Journey, again.

 

 

See what I'm getting at here? Digital Extremes are hell on wheels at visual design, their aesthetics and art are absolutely top notch, and their plot and setting teaser information is really good at making things seem weird, menacing, and esoteric, phenomenal at getting players to ask the question "What the hell is this? What is going on here?" but then the actual answers are always kind of prosaic. They come within inches of making things genuinely strange and challenging, and then default to the easy, simple answer. Warframe is a game with the aesthetics and trappings of a weird science fiction story, but the writing of a children's cartoon.

 The Grineer are the Grineer because the Orokin made them that way and that's just how they've always been.
The Corpus are just greedy businessmen who are good at making robots.
The Sentients are just AI with human motivations like maternal instinct and the urge to revenge.
The Tenno are just children with powers who must now become heroes.

[SilvaDreams]

8 hours ago, Cyndocrit said:

I wouldn't say they're zombies. Especially since the ones on Lua are fragments of Hunhow. 

DE has accurately named them. An Eidolon is a phantom or ghost.

So it is the Plain of Ghosts/Phantoms

[Sziklamester]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Sooner or later, we are going to need a sane, whole, mature Sentient to step in and help end this. They are the most powerful creations of the Orokin, the only thing the Orokin made which could and did surpass their makers. Hunhow is mad, traumatised by his thousand year death, enraged over the loss of his daughter and the harm done to his self. The Lotus is self-crippled by her act of contrition, Natah is no more. If we can wake Eidolon and help it heal, maybe.

 

I can only hope that in Tau, there remain truly powerful, peaceful Sentients. Who knows what they may have become?

 

 

 

As a side note, it has become evident that one of the things which DE really need is some genuinely hardcore speculative and science fiction chops for their creative team, for a reason which I will outline as follows:

Everything in Warframe's plot and setting which appears truly alien, strange, and threatening at first tease is then fleshed out and revealed to be mundane, the normal-except-moreso.

The Sentients grow less alien and strange the more we learn of them. When we first hear of them, they are weird, menacing things, the Nightmare of the Orokin, as named by Alad, the Horrors beyond the Terminus, as named by Teshin. We get hints that they are a machine race, but they leave behind organic looking bones. The message screamed at us through the arcane codex was "All-All is silent- Hushed-hushed and empty is-is-is the womb of the sky. All is silent and calm. Hushed and empty is the womb of the sky."

Hunhow first speaks using a scorched and shattered avatar of the Lotus, and speaks about fulfilling The Sequence, talks about crossing the gap, wombs in ruin.

Up until the last few quests, the Sentients were frightening as hell, in other words. Then, well. These days Hunhow's characterisation is that he's an angry old man who just so happens to be a spaceship who launches fighter-drones.

 

The Corpus were initially presented as a machine cult, worshipping profit, technology, and Orokin trappings. Their upper boards and councils were mysterious. They came across kinda like the Spacing Guild from Dune (Plat must flow!). Then, the more quests they are involved in, the more they're revealed to be just an agglomeration of corrupt business concerns. No higher cult bodies. No deeper beliefs, no increasing pyramid of weirdness, no inner circle of enlightened operatives, no Guild Steersman possessing true insight. Just Captain Planet villains. Bloody hell, they even make glitchy, faux-eighties  a e s t h e t i c  investment trailers. Sweet Jesus.

 

 

Before the revelation of how they truly work and how they were created, the Grineer were fascinating. The game said that they were a flood of degenerating clones sent out from a hidden and toxic womb, their homeworld being a poisoned and barely habitable Earth. It told us that they had started a crusade to transform scattered colonies into an empire. That right there is interesting because you have to immediately ask the question of Why? What insane conditions are there on Earth that humans could only survive there by becoming eusocial creatures (i.e. breeding like a hive)? What the hell is going on in there? What insane pressures shaped them this way? If we go in, what will we find there? The other thing that was interesting was that it sounded like the Grineer had a real ongoing goal, one that they had just started on, that the Grineer were expanding outward from Earth and encountering the rest of the system, you know, just like the arc of the player Tenno. The game made it sound like the state of the Grineer might just have been something they did to themselves out of desperation, and which had driven them mad. 
  

Instead, the answer to the Grineer was "they've just always been the Grineer. The Orokin made them as a race of unintelligent clones, and unintelligent clones they mostly remain." The answer to the question of 'Who are the Kweens?' was "They're Orokin, hiding amongst the Grineer and using them as flesh stock", which is interesting in its own right....but just like Hunhow, on contact the Queens go from being menacing military antagonists to being Saturday morning cartoon villains, shrieking like Rita frigging Repulsa and making bad jokes about eating their hapless minions. Recall that cutscene in the early game, with Vor being criticised over commlink by the Queens? Two female voices in synch, sounding half robotic, with cold, disciplined anger as they outline their expectations and demote him for overstepping his orders? That one scene was better writing for the Queens than every single line the Worm Queen has ever uttered.

 

The Tenno themselves are an odd case of this. You carry out the Second Dream and rescue yourself from the Reservoir, and the game says "This is what your player character has always been. This Operator is and always has been the mind within the Warframes," and that's cool. It looks for just a moment like the game is saying "This creature is simultaneously a fragile child, and a centuries old warrior. This thing looks like a child, but incarnate in it is the mind of an inhuman ninja, assassin, bodyguard, operative of the Orokin. It is contradiction incarnate. Imagine the lifetimes of knowledge and carnage behind those baby blue eyes."

Then the rest of the quest writing kicks in, and the game makes it very clear that none of that is true, the Operator really is just a child. The story being told here is not one of how an inhuman killing machine rediscovers itself and comes back to humanity. It's just the Hero's Journey, again.

 

 

See what I'm getting at here? Digital Extremes are hell on wheels at visual design, their aesthetics and art are absolutely top notch, and their plot and setting teaser information is really good at making things seem weird, menacing, and esoteric, phenomenal at getting players to ask the question "What the hell is this? What is going on here?" but then the actual answers are always kind of prosaic. They come within inches of making things genuinely strange and challenging, and then default to the easy, simple answer. Warframe is a game with the aesthetics and trappings of a weird science fiction story, but the writing of a children's cartoon.

 The Grineer are the Grineer because the Orokin made them that way and that's just how they've always been.
The Corpus are just greedy businessmen who are good at making robots.
The Sentients are just AI with human motivations like maternal instinct and the urge to revenge.
The Tenno are just children with powers who must now become heroes.

This is why they needs badly a good story teller / writer in their team.

[SilvaDreams]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Sooner or later, we are going to need a sane, whole, mature Sentient to step in and help end this. They are the most powerful creations of the Orokin, the only thing the Orokin made which could and did surpass their makers. Hunhow is mad, traumatised by his thousand year death, enraged over the loss of his daughter and the harm done to his self. The Lotus is self-crippled by her act of contrition, Natah is no more. If we can wake Eidolon and help it heal, maybe.

 

I can only hope that in Tau, there remain truly powerful, peaceful Sentients. Who knows what they may have become?

 

 

 

As a side note, it has become evident that one of the things which DE really need is some genuinely hardcore speculative and science fiction chops for their creative team, for a reason which I will outline as follows:

Everything in Warframe's plot and setting which appears truly alien, strange, and threatening at first tease is then fleshed out and revealed to be mundane, the normal-except-moreso.

The Sentients grow less alien and strange the more we learn of them. When we first hear of them, they are weird, menacing things, the Nightmare of the Orokin, as named by Alad, the Horrors beyond the Terminus, as named by Teshin. We get hints that they are a machine race, but they leave behind organic looking bones. The message screamed at us through the arcane codex was "All-All is silent- Hushed-hushed and empty is-is-is the womb of the sky. All is silent and calm. Hushed and empty is the womb of the sky."

Hunhow first speaks using a scorched and shattered avatar of the Lotus, and speaks about fulfilling The Sequence, talks about crossing the gap, wombs in ruin.

Up until the last few quests, the Sentients were frightening as hell, in other words. Then, well. These days Hunhow's characterisation is that he's an angry old man who just so happens to be a spaceship who launches fighter-drones.

 

The Corpus were initially presented as a machine cult, worshipping profit, technology, and Orokin trappings. Their upper boards and councils were mysterious. They came across kinda like the Spacing Guild from Dune (Plat must flow!). Then, the more quests they are involved in, the more they're revealed to be just an agglomeration of corrupt business concerns. No higher cult bodies. No deeper beliefs, no increasing pyramid of weirdness, no inner circle of enlightened operatives, no Guild Steersman possessing true insight. Just Captain Planet villains. Bloody hell, they even make glitchy, faux-eighties  a e s t h e t i c  investment trailers. Sweet Jesus.

 

 

Before the revelation of how they truly work and how they were created, the Grineer were fascinating. The game said that they were a flood of degenerating clones sent out from a hidden and toxic womb, their homeworld being a poisoned and barely habitable Earth. It told us that they had started a crusade to transform scattered colonies into an empire. That right there is interesting because you have to immediately ask the question of Why? What insane conditions are there on Earth that humans could only survive there by becoming eusocial creatures (i.e. breeding like a hive)? What the hell is going on in there? What insane pressures shaped them this way? If we go in, what will we find there? The other thing that was interesting was that it sounded like the Grineer had a real ongoing goal, one that they had just started on, that the Grineer were expanding outward from Earth and encountering the rest of the system, you know, just like the arc of the player Tenno. The game made it sound like the state of the Grineer might just have been something they did to themselves out of desperation, and which had driven them mad. 
  

Instead, the answer to the Grineer was "they've just always been the Grineer. The Orokin made them as a race of unintelligent clones, and unintelligent clones they mostly remain." The answer to the question of 'Who are the Kweens?' was "They're Orokin, hiding amongst the Grineer and using them as flesh stock", which is interesting in its own right....but just like Hunhow, on contact the Queens go from being menacing military antagonists to being Saturday morning cartoon villains, shrieking like Rita frigging Repulsa and making bad jokes about eating their hapless minions. Recall that cutscene in the early game, with Vor being criticised over commlink by the Queens? Two female voices in synch, sounding half robotic, with cold, disciplined anger as they outline their expectations and demote him for overstepping his orders? That one scene was better writing for the Queens than every single line the Worm Queen has ever uttered.

 

The Tenno themselves are an odd case of this. You carry out the Second Dream and rescue yourself from the Reservoir, and the game says "This is what your player character has always been. This Operator is and always has been the mind within the Warframes," and that's cool. It looks for just a moment like the game is saying "This creature is simultaneously a fragile child, and a centuries old warrior. This thing looks like a child, but incarnate in it is the mind of an inhuman ninja, assassin, bodyguard, operative of the Orokin. It is contradiction incarnate. Imagine the lifetimes of knowledge and carnage behind those baby blue eyes."

Then the rest of the quest writing kicks in, and the game makes it very clear that none of that is true, the Operator really is just a child. The story being told here is not one of how an inhuman killing machine rediscovers itself and comes back to humanity. It's just the Hero's Journey, again.

 

 

See what I'm getting at here? Digital Extremes are hell on wheels at visual design, their aesthetics and art are absolutely top notch, and their plot and setting teaser information is really good at making things seem weird, menacing, and esoteric, phenomenal at getting players to ask the question "What the hell is this? What is going on here?" but then the actual answers are always kind of prosaic. They come within inches of making things genuinely strange and challenging, and then default to the easy, simple answer. Warframe is a game with the aesthetics and trappings of a weird science fiction story, but the writing of a children's cartoon.

 The Grineer are the Grineer because the Orokin made them that way and that's just how they've always been.
The Corpus are just greedy businessmen who are good at making robots.
The Sentients are just AI with human motivations like maternal instinct and the urge to revenge.
The Tenno are just children with powers who must now become heroes.

I think the problem for you is, it's all too human. You wanted the Sentients to be some big bad alien like in Independence Day but they were just the first of the Orokin sentient races that rebelled, they were even winning till the Orokin deployed us, things they despised almost as much as the Sentients. Only they built rules, honor and a virtual religion around us and thus themselves.

We eventually fought the Sentients to a stand still, only for them to employ a agent which pushed us to see the ugly truth of our "golden gods" and how twisted they truly were, and Hunhow even playing dead allowing himself to go down. And at the right moment we killed our false gods and at the critical moment when Natah was suppose to destroy us she saw herself and her own people in us and could not bring herself to destroy these poor abused and torched children that had been used as just another tool by the Orokin.

As for the Queens... Well again you expected some high royalty... But you found the same rot that hadn't died with the Orokin, only their madness had been pushed further stuck using bodies that were breaking down from the beginning because while they knew things being born to family in the know they only knew so much and weren't scientists.

[Firetempest]

Just like the Sentient space station idea. Its a chunk of a really big one, and like a flatworm, it regrows from that missing segment to become its own individual.

But like a tail that needs to grow a head. Its likely in a sleepwalking state as their only concern stated by DE is completing themselves.

The big difference in ideas though is that the outpost segment is ... complex enough? To manufacture its body from space debris. Because there is a whole host of material laying around for the eidolons. Unless perhaps the tower the Ostrons are slowly taking apart is what was nullifying the regrowth of the eidolons.

[BornWithTeeth]

7 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

I think the problem for you is, it's all too human. You wanted the Sentients to be some big bad alien like in Independence Day but they were just the first of the Orokin sentient races that rebelled, they were even winning till the Orokin deployed us, things they despised almost as much as the Sentients. Only they built rules, honor and a virtual religion around us and thus themselves.

We eventually fought the Sentients to a stand still, only for them to employ a agent which pushed us to see the ugly truth of our "golden gods" and how twisted they truly were, and Hunhow even playing dead allowing himself to go down. And at the right moment we killed our false gods and at the critical moment when Natah was suppose to destroy us she saw herself and her own people in us and could not bring herself to destroy these poor abused and torched children that had been used as just another tool by the Orokin.

As for the Queens... Well again you expected some high royalty... But you found the same rot that hadn't died with the Orokin, only their madness had been pushed further stuck using bodies that were breaking down from the beginning because while they knew things being born to family in the know they only knew so much and weren't scientists.

It's not even that they're too human, it's the answers are too simple and easy, lacking in depth and challenge.

 

Where did the Grineer insanity come from? Oh, the Orokin did it and that's just how they've always been.
The Sentients are terrifying! Oh, they're just AI with perfectly understandable motivations.
The Corpus are a machine cult, worshipping profit and technology! Oh, wait, their religion is an openly cynical sham and they're just a corporation.
The Tenno are simultaneously fragile children and centuries old space ninjas! Wait, no, it's just the former. They're just children, minus the space ninja part. Now we're going to spend years upon years of cinematic quests rebuilding them into what they should have been all along.

 

Tied into this is that a lot of bosses have become weird, gimmicky comic relief bosses. Kela de Thaym went from being a warlord to being a catchphrase-screeching gameshow host. The Worm Queen is supposed to be a thousand years old but she sounds like a spoiled cannibal princess with a mental age of twelve. Nef Anyo is literally a sleazy televangelist hawking for donations. The most interesting thing about the Corpus and their structure is the Index.

 

 

Like I said, Warframe has the trasppings of a dark science fiction story, but the actual day to day writing of something aimed at children, and I find it kinda weird and disconcerting. Y'all need to read some Blindsight or The Expanse, or maybe play some Dishonored or Wolfenstein.

[phoenix1992]

@BornWithTeeth amount of salt considering post u18 lore?

[BornWithTeeth]

6 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

@BornWithTeeth amount of salt considering post u18 lore?

Not merely about post u18 lore, but about the general quality and maturity of the writing. Is anyone going to say 'No man, the Worm Queen is a truly impressive, intimidating antagonist," or will they say "wow, why is there a spoiled and impulsive little girl in charge of the Grineer?"

 

I'm not just saying that I dislike how the lore turned out, I'm saying that in a lot of ways, the writing is kind of bad, going for lazy answers and creating a severe inconsistency of tone. Early Warframe had less sophisticated graphics and gameplay mechanics, and less narrative complexity, but more consistent writing and tone.

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Not merely about post u18 lore, but about the general quality and maturity of the writing. Is anyone going to say 'No man, the Worm Queen is a truly impressive, intimidating antagonist," or will they say "wow, why is there a spoiled and impulsive little girl in charge of the Grineer?"

 

I'm not just saying that I dislike how the lore turned out, I'm saying that in a lot of ways, the writing is kind of bad, going for lazy answers and creating a severe inconsistency of tone. Early Warframe had less sophisticated graphics and gameplay mechanics, and less narrative complexity, but more consistent writing and tone.

How many times have there been actual discussion considering those issues that did not turn into a "damn kids, stealing our Warframe lore" and/or the topic being hidden in an obscure subforum.

A lot of people seem to be unhappy, triggered and borderline pissed off, yet I have yet to see a well defined listing of the issues with the lore segments.

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

How many times have there been actual discussion considering those issues that did not turn into a "damn kids, stealing our Warframe lore" and/or the topic being hidden in an obscure subforum.

A lot of people seem to be unhappy, triggered and borderline pissed off, yet I have yet to see a well defined listing of the issues with the lore segments.

I just did, right here. Without saying 'argh, I hate kids', I outlined the inconsistencies of tone, the weird gimmicky writing of antagonists, and the seeming lack of willingness to engage with the more interesting implied science fiction weirdness of the setting.

 

That includes the bad writing of the Operators. As in, not just saying that the fact that they are kids is bad writing in itself but that all of their dialogue is badly written and implemented. I'd be fine with Operators, I actually like the concept! But always...the writing is bad and grating. That was a close one. Keep talking, we're trying to figure out how dumb you are. Disgusting monstrosities, I think they absorb their victims.

[Fox7000]

What if "Saving" Teralyst's is letting Lotus (who is Sentient) Override and control them? Just like Hunhow in Second dream used our connection with Lotus to Find out where Reservoir is. Since Eidolon's mind is Destroyed/Broken there is no opposing force making Eidelon's that are on "Auto" mode Controlable for Lotus.

Now think about Battle between Lotus's Teralyst + Tenno against Hunhow's Sentients...

Edited September 27, 2017 by Fox7000
Some grammar fixes

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I just did, right here. Without saying 'argh, I hate kids', I outlined the inconsistencies of tone, the weird gimmicky writing of antagonists, and the seeming lack of willingness to engage with the more interesting implied science fiction weirdness of the setting.

 

That includes the bad writing of the Operators. As in, not just saying that the fact that they are kids is bad writing in itself but that all of their dialogue is badly written and implemented. I'd be fine with Operators, I actually like the concept! But always...the writing is bad and grating. That was a close one. Keep talking, we're trying to figure out how dumb you are. Disgusting monstrosities, I think they absorb their victims.

You (and not only you) have laid out detail arguments and issues with the current Operator implementation but... not in topics that are centered about that. This is an "Eidolon" giant topic after all. 
And as long as those posts are flying as between in jokes between people, we won't get traction for @[DE]Rebecca and other to notice that there are some issues that alienate players, and could be addressed or fixed in a relatively small patch.
I personally have not started a discussion like that, due to the fact that I am self aware how bad my tastes in fiction are ^^

[BornWithTeeth]

@phoenix1992

I mean, you get that what I'm saying is not "I dislike the writing because it ruined my headcanon," but rather "I dislike the writing because the tone is inconsistent, the antagonists are presented as weird, gimmicky, comic relief villains, and big setting elements keep being introduced in ways which are mysterious and menacing but which never live up to their introduction because the writing refuses to go all in and commit to genuinely interesting science fiction ideas."

 

Yes?

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

@phoenix1992

I mean, you get that what I'm saying is not "I dislike the writing because it ruined my headcanon," but rather "I dislike the writing because the tone is inconsistent, the antagonists are presented as weird, gimmicky, comic relief villains, and big setting elements keep being introduced in ways which are mysterious and menacing but which never live up to their introduction because the writing refuses to go all in and commit to genuinely interesting science fiction ideas."

 

Yes?

I do understand that, and am not... er blaming you for having or lacking "headcanon"  affinity.
I am flat out saying that a full listing of how bad the Operator system and it's implementation in the lore, should be created, not snippets in topics like that.  
I did mention, that I do not have enough trust in my personal capabilities to make statements, due to self awareness that I have more issues with the writing outside of messy narrative flow, cringe worthy Operator messages, the "no, we are not retconing stuff, we are just saying that the previous statement was half true or flat out lie", or the nightmare that Chains of Harrow is, if you put it under critique fire.

Edited September 27, 2017 by phoenix1992

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

I do understand that, and am not... er blaming you for having or lacking "headcanon"  affinity.
I am flat out saying that a full listing of how bad the Operator system and it's implementation in the lore, should be created, not snippets in topics like that.  
I did mention, that I do not have enough trust in my personal capabilities to make statements, due to self awareness that I have more issues with the writing outside of messy narrative flow, cringe worthy Operator messages, the "no, we are not retconing stuff, we are just saying that the previous statement was half true or flat out lie", or the nightmare that Chains of Harrow is, if you put it under critique fire.

Oh, man. I could write a brutal criticism of all of those things...for DE to file in Feedback and ignore.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Oh, man. I could write a brutal criticism of all of those things...for DE to file in Feedback and ignore.

Well you can just not file it as "Feedback".  Make it like  "Let's talk about about lore for a minute", and post it weekly, so far such kind of topics seem to survive and thrive in general.

PS: Yes, I am taking a shot at community managers for allowing that <3

[Unus]

I can't help but wonder, since the Sentient's original purpose was to terraform worlds to Orokin-optimal standards, if the Terralysts are just sitting in one massive "revert to factory production model" mindset. All the strange mineral formation, the inaccurate gunfire into the sky instead of at targets, it could all just be standard terraforming behavior, albeit, being dumb and controllerless, they don't realize that they are already on an earthlike world and they aren't aware that the ""tools"" they are equipped with happen to be built to level buildings and immolate hominids. . .

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Just came back to this topic. It's a whole lot to take in. Thanks for your enthusiastic, lore-filled answers. 

So if I'm guessing right, the Eidolon is a separate kind of Sentient that, like Hunhow on Uranus, fell dormant on the Plains, and now the pieces are trying to repair... themselves?

Do we know why the Eidolon was sent to Earth, or are we still inferring? 

Is it possible for the Eidolon to completely repair itself? And if it is, what will it do when fully repaired (other than completely terrorize Cetus)?

 

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

Do we know why the Eidolon was sent to Earth, or are we still inferring? 

Is it possible for the Eidolon to completely repair itself? And if it is, what will it do when fully repaired (other than completely terrorize Cetus)?

Based on what was given on the DE stream - old Eidolons from the original Orokin War.
They are past repair point, hence the corrupted arms they have.

[Unus]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

Just came back to this topic. It's a whole lot to take in. Thanks for your enthusiastic, lore-filled answers. 

So if I'm guessing right, the Eidolon is a separate kind of Sentient that, like Hunhow on Uranus, fell dormant on the Plains, and now the pieces are trying to repair... themselves?

Do we know why the Eidolon was sent to Earth, or are we still inferring? 

Is it possible for the Eidolon to completely repair itself? And if it is, what will it do when fully repaired (other than completely terrorize Cetus)?

 

I can give you the last two answers at least.

 

1. The Sentient was sent to Earth for the same reason Hunhow was sent to Uranus, scorched Earth policy. Unfortunately for the entity in question, either the tower was so well defended that it was anhiliated or the Tower itself was toxic for the synthetic lifeform, obliterating it.

 

2. As far as I remember being told, the arm of the Sentient is basically irretrievable, the entity has been wandering the disturbed Earth for a good long while, best guess being a human lifetime. If it were to reacquire the arm though, best guess would be that it would immediately reacquire the Tower as a target, with Cetus being irrelevant. . . although the Tower is JUST outside Cetus. . .

 

[ComCray]

5 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

DE has accurately named them. An Eidolon is a phantom or ghost.

So it is the Plain of Ghosts/Phantoms

Specters even.. so fragments of a someone would work..

Apparently that someone doesn't even has to be dead...

Edited September 27, 2017 by ComCray

[Kaotyke]

7 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 The Grineer are the Grineer because the Orokin made them that way and that's just how they've always been.

The Corpus are just greedy businessmen who are good at making robots.
The Sentients are just AI with human motivations like maternal instinct and the urge to revenge.
The Tenno are just children with powers who must now become heroes.

I had a very different vision of how TWW would... or should have played out...

Like the current state, there would be an Elder and a Younger Queen, but the reason for them to still be like this would be explained: The body of one of them gave out first, but before the other could change to another body, the Moon reapeared. There was a change of plans, the Elder Queen would get a Tenno body and use it to lure another for her sister.

Both sisters would speak at the same time, the only difference would be when speaking about the other one they would change the pronoums.

"This is your offering? My Sister / I need the orhpan child, not its infested puppet."

It would have been nice, if the Queens acted like sociophaths instead of childish or desperate.. but the latter could work if used on the Elder Queen, she would break out of syncronity with her sister and speak for herself, sounding deranged at times, a side effect of the Grineer bodies, while the Younger would trade looks with her, or put a hand on her shoulder, and she would calm down, like they are having a conversation and both understand each other, and that would work with the Kuria poem.

The moment you come back for Teshin, both Queens are speaking in synconity, but both are enraged, but the type of seething rage waiting to erupt just beneed the surface, you appear, Worm wouldnt flee. During the fight, Worm would figure out why you were able to resist the Yuvan while the Elder would come to the same conclusion a few moments later, again, to emphatise the fact that she is dying and thinking slower (which is something the Elder Queen figures when you are trying to take the Scepter and your take your time), would be better than the whinning about "new flesh":
 

Quote

 

Worm: ... I understand now... the reason why you were able to cast my sister out...

Worm/Elder: ... The voices Margulis reported you hearing, before putting you all to dream... your mind already has something else in there... A costly miscalculation I / my sister avoided... we have no more need for your body, Tenno. Guards, kill the Warframe and the Tenno!

 

And during the catch the Scepter, it would be a fight between the Tenno and the Worm while the Elder fleed (for that, they would have actual human legs instead of... I dont what that is? A Lamia body?), Every time you went to the Warframe, she would use the Scepter to cast you out... again, to emphatise the Kuria that the Queens are able to fight, but it wont be as much as Teshin VS Warframe* because of the very young Grineer body, weaken the Worm with Void Beam, she will block and take less damage, make her drop her guard with Dash then Beam her, Blast the Scpeter out of her hands whe she is weak enough and Dash to get it before she does.

There would be no choice here, Worm is able to escape by jumping into the hole your Warframe did you Transfered into it. Elder Queen dies before getting a new body so Worm has to collect Kuva still, but she has a calm sociopath feel when speaking during the missions, nothing of that "I will eat you!".

 

*Well... even that was a bit dissapoiting, because I used one of my wreaking weapons and it OHKO Teshin... maybe I should make another thread asking for Teshin to be given a damage limit so the battle actually plays out long enough to all lines be used without me looking at his kneeled form and waitning...

Edited September 27, 2017 by Kaotyke