Harrow Lore *possible spoilers*

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

I just finished the Harrow quest and I'm a bit confused. Since Rell's original warframe was locked up in chains in the void for a long time (presumably around the Orokin era since Rell was not in cryostasis and would have died shortly after the war given a human's life expectancy), then why do we not find Harrow Prime in the final mission? Assuming that his frame was created by the Orokins that is. If his frame wasn't made by the Orokins then who made it? And would that not mean that there'd be no prime variant of his frame?

[lightdragon64]

nobody said that prime warframes were created by the orokin, they were just likely created by using orokin resources. (or at least i haven't seen any solid evidence saying so)

Edited July 14, 2017 by lightdragon64

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

Just now, lightdragon64 said:

nobody said that prime warframes were created by the orokin, they were just likely created by using orokin resources.

It's heavily implied however, especially going off all the codex entries and watching the prime warframe trailers and the commentary 

[PsiWarp]

Maybe we'll find out in The Sacrifice. Maybe Harrow is a Warframe in function but produced by some other means (not by Orokin hand).

[Sitchrea]

Primes were the first Warframes created by the Orokin. 

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

4 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Primes were the first Warframes created by the Orokin. 

Yeah, so given that Harrow was locked up approximately a bit after the Orokin era, it'd make sense that he was a primed frame, yet he isn't. So since he's not primed and that's Rell's  "original" frame, it wouldn't make sense for there to be a primed frame later on for us to get 

[--F--NerevarCM]

23 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

It's heavily implied however, especially going off all the codex entries and watching the prime warframe trailers and the commentary 

Not all Prime items are made by the Orokin. Many of them were created by the Tenno using Orokin Tech

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

Just now, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Not all Prime items are made by the Orokin. Many of them were created by the Tenno using Orokin Tech

Can you provide sources? The tenno made the non prime items that were based on Orokin design, but were essentially knock offs

[--F--NerevarCM]

19 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Can you provide sources? The tenno made the non prime items that were based on Orokin design, but were essentially knock offs

BOAR PRIME CODEX:

One of the finest examples of Tenno craftsmanship, the Boar Prime offers a higher rate of fire and clip size with a slight decrease in per-shot damage

DAKRA PRIME CODEX:

The Dakra Prime is a Tenno forged weapon, crafted during the Time of the Orokin. It is renowned for speed, power and the ability to hit multiple targets.

SYBARYS PRIME CODEX:

Become judge, jury, and executioner with this elegant and deadly lever-action Tenno rifle capable of firing a twin pair of bullets in quick succession.

DUAL KAMAS PRIME CODEX:

The sensual lines of these golden Kamas have long been celebrated as a masterwork of Tenno weapon smithing.

 

Orokin made weapons:

VASTO PRIME CODEX:

This elegant rapid-fire revolver is the embodiment of superior Orokin craftsmanship.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by -SDM-NerevarCM
added more

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

4 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

BOAR PRIME CODEX:

One of the finest examples of Tenno craftsmanship, the Boar Prime offers a higher rate of fire and clip size with a slight decrease in per-shot damage

DAKRA PRIME CODEX:

The Dakra Prime is a Tenno forged weapon, crafted during the Time of the Orokin. It is renowned for speed, power and the ability to hit multiple targets.

SYBARYS PRIME CODEX:

Become judge, jury, and executioner with this elegant and deadly lever-action Tenno rifle capable of firing a twin pair of bullets in quick succession.

 

Those were all created in the Orokin era, tenno can no longer do that as the knowledge has been lost according to the wiki

[--F--NerevarCM]

Just now, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Those were all created in the Orokin era, tenno can no longer do that as the knowledge has been lost according to the wiki

Read again:

 

19 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Not all Prime items are made by the Orokin. Many of them were created by the Tenno using Orokin Tech

 

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

Just now, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Read again:

 

 

Nonetheless, if the original Harrow was not primed, since the knowledge to make new primes has been lost, it would make sense that there'd never be a primed Harrow

[Jeoxz]

It's said that Margulis "rejected" Rell, but then the Red Veil put him on Harrow, implying that that Harrow was made by Red Veil and thus not Prime.

Respect to Primes. From what I understand Prime stuff is made with Orokin technology, likely by the tennos of that time, while non-prime items coexisted too(maybe due to scarce resources). We can remake primes now thanks to the bps being consumed etc etc.

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jeoxz
that then then that can't english

[NeithanDiniem]

Nothing said that Rell's Warframe was the PRIME version.

Secondly, that would have required DE to make a prime warframe alongside the non-prime, then prevent players from having the prime version for over 2+ years before Harrow came up in rotation, THEN deal with people complaining that they arent getting the prime from the quest. Its the same arguments made for Limbo, Mirage, Inaros, Titania. Just because the Orokin made primes does not mean all Warframes that were around during the Orokin era were prime Warframes.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Jeoxz said:

It's said that Margulis "rejected" Rell, but that the Red Veil put him on Harrow, implying that that Harrow was made by Red Veil and thus not Prime.

Respect to Primes. From what I understand Prime stuff is made with Orokin technology, likely by the tennos of that time, while non-prime items coexisted too(maybe due to scarce resources). We can remake primes now thanks to the bps being consumed etc etc.

 

Or that the Red Veil found a Warframe and used it... The corpus and Grineer find them all the time. The Corpus even have a market for it. Why do people think there wont be a prime of any one frame? Every single frame started as a prime version and the other versions are derived from those. Plus, DE has explicitly stated that every frame will have a prime.

Edited July 14, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Or that the Red Veil found a Warframe and used it... The corpus and Grineer find them all the time. The Corpus even have a market for it. Why do people think there wont be a prime of any one frame? Every single frame started as a prime version and the other versions are derived from those. Plus, DE has explicitly stated that every frame will have a prime.

Hmm, it would make sense that Rell didn't have his own warframe since he was rejected. So I guess it would make sense that he was given a random warframe to use.

Also: Hey! Long time no see Neithan 

[Miser_able]

3 possibilities I can think of. Either A, his frame degraded over time and had to be repaired using non orokin tech. B, because he was rejected by margulis he was not given a prime so his first was a non prime, but she could have saved a prime for some reason. Or C, Harrow never had a prime so we'll have to find a way to fix that. 

[Evanescent]

Biggest question is that how and where did he get a warframe if Marghulis cast him out? I doubt the Orokin just made one prototype for a weird kid. 

Like why was Harrow made?

[SilvaDreams]

3 hours ago, Miser_able said:

3 possibilities I can think of. Either A, his frame degraded over time and had to be repaired using non orokin tech. B, because he was rejected by margulis he was not given a prime so his first was a non prime, but she could have saved a prime for some reason. Or C, Harrow never had a prime so we'll have to find a way to fix that. 

Quite sure everyone didn't get a Prime at first.

The Odonata Prime codex makes it a bit more sensible.

"This enhanced version of the first Archwing prototype takes the design to its theoretical limits."

Edited July 14, 2017 by SilvaDreams

[Kerberos-3]

5 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Or that the Red Veil found a Warframe and used it... The corpus and Grineer find them all the time. The Corpus even have a market for it. Why do people think there wont be a prime of any one frame? Every single frame started as a prime version and the other versions are derived from those. Plus, DE has explicitly stated that every frame will have a prime.

Because with several Frames it makes no sense for them to have Primes. Such Frames include Valkyr(in game main frame and abilities were caused by Alad's tampering), Nova(Created by the Tenno council, which would not have existed during the Orokin era for a number of reasons), and Nidus(is literally a walking mass of Infested tissue, probably another Warframe corrupted by the Infested much like the Djinn Sentinel).

[SilvaDreams]

1 hour ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Because with several Frames it makes no sense for them to have Primes. Such Frames include Valkyr(in game main frame and abilities were caused by Alad's tampering), Nova(Created by the Tenno council, which would not have existed during the Orokin era for a number of reasons), and Nidus(is literally a walking mass of Infested tissue, probably another Warframe corrupted by the Infested much like the Djinn Sentinel).

Valkyr's lore was done more as a personal observation rather than a true past in a time when we still believed we were the Waframe so it's fine for a Prime to exist.

And a Tenno Council certainly could have existed during the Orokin era, entire schools were formed around us.

Nidus... Well who knows. But the potential is there, he was built to counter the infested plague by commanding it.

[Gamma745]

2 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

... and Nidus(is literally a walking mass of Infested tissue, probably another Warframe corrupted by the Infested much like the Djinn Sentinel).

Remember that even in the Glast Gambit quest, the Nidus Blueprint is called "an Old War Relic", meaning Nidus already existed even in the Orokin era.

[Blakrana]

The existence of Primes does not necessarily mean they were literally the first creations, nor does it mean they were the only ones.

For starters, the Warframes were part of a new military project. They were a new technology which thus would have required active research and development, and required its workers to meet some goal or standard likely set by Ballas, as he seems to be the overseer of the project as a whole once Margulis is executed and her Transference Therapy project subsumed into the new Warframe project.

Now, when it comes to R&D the last thing you're going to do is discover the highest end possible for a new technology first. Rather, you're going to experiment and figure out what works first, have a stable starting point and then start pushing the boundaries further as you have a foundation to work from. Primes then become the culmination of said hard work and effort, finally being approved for use by the other Executors and made to look the part; the Primes are as much a testament to Orokin pride as it is their ingenuity, after all. Bear in mind that a functional Warframe is dangerous regardless of whether it's a Prime or not, the abilities are the same. Gilding them is ultimately a function of vanity, and appealing to that.

From there then the Orokin have both the baseline, basic Warframes to be used as desired, whilst Primes suit Orokin aesthetic sensibilities far better per their ornamentation. Add in the likely greater cost in making and sustaining Prime Warframe production compared to conventional, and you also run into the resource question; bear in mind that the whole reason that the trip to Tau is considered necessary is because the Empire is struggling with resource scarcity, or at least seems to be per implication in the Crewman Synthesis.

Therefore, Prime Warframes would have to not only be worth the resources spent in adorning them, but proven to work...a function that baseline Warframes would serve as the Proof of Concepts. Once you have a working prototype or model of something, it's a much easier task then to refine the design.

5 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Like why was Harrow made?

This is theory on my part, but it's a possible explanation.

Firstly, Rell personally admits to being responsible for blinding Margulis. It was an accident, sure...but take that and then consider Ballas' grousing in Second Dream about how Margulis had been injured in her work with the Tenno. I wouldn't be surprised if Ballas' influence may have had a hand in Rell's becoming ostracised. Come later on and Margulis is executed for "Apostasy" by the Seven, and Ballas takes up the Warframe Project with her no longer in the way. Grade A hypocrisy there.

Considering the Orokin's psuedo-religious nature, Harrow could have been born out of their desire for an Inquisitor, essentially, to hunt other Apostates or the like what with how Origin was in an array of conflicts before the Sentient came into play. From there, it may well be that Rell simply stole the Warframe at some point in order to focus on facing against the Void entity, or Indifference...whatever it's supposed to be called.

After all, it's not so dissimilar to what Sylvanna did with Titania, ultimately, taking her work and using it to essentially give herself a security system.

Of course, theory and conjecture on my part.

[SilentMobius]

13 hours ago, lightdragon64 said:

nobody said that prime warframes were created by the orokin, they were just likely created by using orokin resources. (or at least i haven't seen any solid evidence saying so)

Devstream-5 0:11:11 in:

Quote

Steve:

The Warframes that you have normally are built by the Tenno and they, kinda, suit what the Tenno are and the primes are the Original designs from the Orokin Era

That said, we don't know how Rell got his Warframe at all, If Margulis wasn't treating him, and he wasn't one of the sleepers then why would Balas give him a Warframe at all? Being Sleepers is what allows the Orokin to control the Tenno up to a point, why would they give a weapon of mass destruction to one of the (possibly only) Zariman children that was self aware.

My current headcanon is that Rell escaped from the "Warframe" Project before he was terminated with the assistance of some of the Warframe engineers (We know plenty of them were not happy with the way things were going) perhaps after he convinced them of the danger of the "Man in the Wall" (if he didn't do something about it). They took a prototype Warframe with them and used it as a tool in Rell's self-imposed transference-stasis. Those Warframe engineers who know about the danger of the void were the creators of the Red Veil.

This allows there to be a Harrow Prime without issue (The design was still finished into a Prime to fight in the old War, it's just that the Prime had nothing to do with Rell) and it explains why the Veil have specific knowledge of what Rell did, and a desire to put things "right" at all costs.

Edited July 14, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Kerberos-3]

10 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Valkyr's lore was done more as a personal observation rather than a true past in a time when we still believed we were the Waframe so it's fine for a Prime to exist.

And a Tenno Council certainly could have existed during the Orokin era, entire schools were formed around us.

Nidus... Well who knows. But the potential is there, he was built to counter the infested plague by commanding it.

No, it really isn't, because Gersemi exists.

No again, because the Orokin were tyrannical, and such a council would have been a major threat to Orokin supremacy. Most likely the schools were led by the Dax, to try to keep the Tenno loyal.

And wrong for the third time. such a counter would have been redundant because a counter had already been designed in the form of Saryn.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Kerberos-3