What Happened to fixing the pvp system???

[Emolition]

9 hours ago, oogityboogity said:

 PVE only goes so far, so what's up with the pvp???

Pvp don't go far at all.  I can do pve 12 hours a day in allmost any game but pvp in most games I can only stand 30min before I get sick off it.  So you right pve only goes 99% of the way=)

[ivlr3vil]

PvP wouldn't be bad if implemented well, there needs to be a ladder system or leader board that is visible for PvP. Something that rewards players for doing well and allows for competition. It would also be more interesting if they implement clan battles someday. The only reason people even disliked it was because they made the mistake of having credits and resources being controlled by the clan nodes. I'm sure if they really think about it, there would be a nice work-around to make it work. Clans and PvP in online MMO's are nothing new.

[cghawk]

'for people like me who like pvp something should be done to improve it'' why? that makes no sense, if you're in the minority nothing should be done about it, that's like complaining on the doom forums about a lack of PVE in multiplayer because ''people like me only like online PVE'' it makes no sense and your request is unreasonable.

warframe got succesfull and big because of PVE, not pvp, pvp has already damaged pve as it is and I don't want that to get worse

[Ricardo58]

I'd love to understand why some people just want to play pvp at all costs and force it in MMOs that's clearly weren't designed for it, when there are so many mobas, shooters and other good pvp centric games out there... 

[Heckzu]

1 hour ago, Ricardo58 said:

I'd love to understand why some people just want to play pvp at all costs and force it in MMOs that's clearly weren't designed for it, when there are so many mobas, shooters and other good pvp centric games out there... 

As a former GunZ the Duel player, Conclave really hits home.

Fast paced third person sword + gun PvP games aren't mainstream anymore, so it's almost impossible to find gameplay like the Conclave anywhere else.

[SilvaDreams]

12 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

As a former GunZ the Duel player, Conclave really hits home.

Fast paced third person sword + gun PvP games aren't mainstream anymore, so it's almost impossible to find gameplay like the Conclave anywhere else.

And just as abused too as far as cheating goes.... Only no infinite rocket hacks... Just lag switching to high hell

[Valiant]

28 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

As a former GunZ the Duel player, Conclave really hits home.

Fast paced third person sword + gun PvP games aren't mainstream anymore, so it's almost impossible to find gameplay like the Conclave anywhere else.

God no.

Gunz was more fun, minus the hacks and butterfly spam.

Too bad Gunz 2 completely flopped.

[Teloch]

4 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

The pvp system is fine as it is, if you have any suggestion on how to improve it, feel free to post in the conclave feedback section instead of doing it on general discussion

I do conclave, and lately I've been seeing a lot of new different players doing conclave, so I wouldn't call that "no one" nor call conclave "dead"

I'd say it has more to do with psychological things since not everyone's mind is fit for a competitive environment. I'm not discussing this point further just because I'm not willing to trigger "the big  majority of players"

Again,I disagree with you, and I'm sure there's a lot of people sharing this opinion but aren't vocal about it

After checking your profile and finding that your experience is worth a week of conclave (and that's being generous) I can only ask:

  Reveal hidden contents

What if you are the one who sucks at conclave, and that's why you're trying to make it look like conclave sucks instead?

 

6

Roasted.

 

Now to the topic and my five cents.

The issue is that WF was, is, and likely always will be a PVE-centered game. Why? Because the game design and balancing process is focused on covering PVE issues. New frames are designed to have their dedicated niche against ai-controlled mobs, not other players (literally - we have not a single PVP frame); all new guns are designed to have a niche combatting ai-controlled mobs (sometimes those new guns look like attempts to introduce gimmicks for the sake of gimmicks aka knell, but this is irrelevant to this topic); core mechanics such as parkour, focus, damage and integrity scalings are built around PVE process, not PVP.

In its early days, DE stated that there ain't gonna be no PVP mode, but as it often happens with DE, they gave up to the loud requests from the fraction of the player base, and PVP did crawl into this project in the forms of proto-conclave (which used PVE mechanics and was broken inherently) and rail conflicts (which also used the core PVE mechanics and was totally broken). 

Basically, the root of the problem lies in the fact that to become a good and balanced PVP-oriented game, Warframe needs to... well... become an entirely new game with absolutely different core components and balancing. And at this point of the logical chain, the question of risks/expected profits and limited resources distribution makes its appearance. Will it be reasonable to maim PVE by driving resources to improve PVP or even re-concept the entire game around PVP? Only DE knows.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Teloch

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

7 hours ago, Brasten said:

That's because it's unbalanced Quake Arena. The current closets parallel to what Warframe Conclave is doing is the Quake Champions game. And what people are finding out is that super fast precision shooters are not what they remember them being among friends. That really, most people are not very good a fast competitive arena shooters. Throw in Conclaves imbalance between mods, weapons, and Warframes, and it shouldn't be a shock that most people just walk away from it. Along with unfavorable netcode for PvP, it just makes Conclave a mess.

Quake Champions, Doom (2016) MP, and new Unreal Tournament are what people say they want, but what they actually expect is a much slower less agile game that they played with friends on LAN or limited internet circles. Something much close to Halo PvP, or maybe CoD at the fastest. Certainly nothing with nearly the same verticality that Parkour 2.0 allows.

Makes sense, but I do/did enjoy DOOM PvP at least until I got to like... echelon 5 or something. After that I moved on. But still, as fast paced and twitchy as DOOM is, it's still grounded. The most verticality there is is a small double jump and jump pads, which are easy enough to predict. Also everyone is moving at the same pace which helps. No sudden jumps in movement without much notice.

[Sovyul]

As someone who recently dug into PvP after 600h+ of active playtime PvE, my impression is that its turbo broken. It took me 1 game to figure out the meta, after which PvP was a breeze, but also boring. Yeah I handicapped myself afterwards, but meta dominates the conclave so its like base jumping with with an umbrella while others have proper equipment. It means you will die 100%

Edited July 19, 2017 by Sovyul

[Heatnix.]

9 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

Yo, chaps, before this gets ugly, may I make a statement?

Certainly. I got a lot more intense than I should have but not because of the post itself but because, when I started typing about the issue, everything just came rolling in and I just typed it without considering the consequences. Happens a lot more often than you'd think, sadly.

My point is that the more focused a game gets on pvp the worst the community gets.

I've played so many games for the longest time. I've played all types of games and I have all sorts of stories to back up my claim. I've played Rappelz where going on pvp mode allowed you to hunt anyone outside of a city at any time with no repercussions except for not being able to "turn it off" for a few minutes. People that payed money would raid low level cities for new players to kill them. No strong players would show up to clean that mess up, they'd just allow them to go kill people senseless for however long they wished. No repercussions. In dungeon fights, if a team had a spot taken to level up, a bigger team would call their strong clan players and kill the people on that spot so their friends could play there. Imagine playing some sort of farm run and a bigger team kills you to take your spot.

I've played Lineage 2 where the system was pretty similar. Again, people that payed money would go on newbie hunts for their giggles. They'd, in fact, hunt the same guy to make it rage cry on the channel or have it pathetically try to move to another spot only to be chased and killed.

I've played games like Ragnarok where pvp was simplistic but it had it's specific times and zones for it. During war time people would enter pvp automatically on certain maps and have actual objectives and strategy to take castles and defend them. Outside of that it was all pve where the enemies would be far, far, FAR stronger than any actual player and teams of 10+ of the strongest were needed to defeat the biggest bosses. You could not participate at all and be ok with it.

I've played games like Ace Online where pvp is the name of the game. But we were split into two factions with no way to communicate with the other, making it a them against us and actually making each side be quite supportive of their own. You fly into a map and you see an enemy squad hunting noobs? Whoever was strong and read your message for help would take the time to go fight them the hell off your maps. If anything there were rivalries between the two sides, but more often than not they didn't care. The game was MEANT for it.

They are so simple minded thinking that pvp is the ultimate showmanship of ability or difficulty. Really goes to show how few games they have played or how much they focus on playing games with pvp.

Pvp doesn't go far. It gets repetitive. It's just that, over and over. It's just people fighting people under the same rules over and over again endlessly. They don't do it because it's "new and fresh every time". The hell is wrong with people saying pvp is the end game of a game? It's a wall that stops creativity. Just throw people mindless pvp and they chew on it as if they were rabid, never demanding different experiences. They.just.want.that.over.and.over.and.over.

Games like Starcraft have horrible amounts of cheese. League of Legends is the anti-thesis if team work even if the thing is supposed to be a team based effort and it has become the most toxic community out of having no check for their ego, always blaming everyone else for a loss. Overwatch would be worse if it was a free to play game, where people complain about the characters others pick and the salt rains like the ancient floor.

9 hours ago, oogityboogity said:

you saying majority of the community when all I've ever seen was the same few names crying about how much they don't want pvp.

All I see is a minority crying that they want to be able to do pvp in a game that focuses on pve entirely from the start. The answers and likes of people should be proof enough that the majority doesn't wish forced pvp.  Once more, if you don't like the game because it doesn't let you feel superior to others, don't play. Go play something pvp oriented. This is Warframe and it is what it is. Don't try to force your way of life into it or pretend that everyone wants what you want. I don't have to since the game doesn't force pvp down our damn throats, so technically I'm simply defending the game's core.

Also, don't be the usual idiot that says "you cheese in warframe now anyway". I hate cheesing. I've never atterax'd my way through a level. I don't even own a Synoid Simulor. I don't play Limbo. I stopped playing Ember when WoF became a toggle. You don't know how I play, you don't know why I play, you don't know what I use to play. Judging me blindly on play style is asinine and uncalled for. Stick to the pvp chat.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Heatnix.

[(PSN)KIERO_---13]

Less is more. I enjoyed Snowball, Steel, bow only events. Surprisingly did much better than the current pvp system. I wonder why? Just add basic Special events mechanics mode. I wouldnt mind chucking snowballs at tenno or shooting arrows year round. They can keep "trying" to balance regular pvp for those vets. And i would love to play as Clem, Prodman, or any other factions. Pvp can actually be.... Fun?

At least they didnt reveal a Lunaro arm wrestling 2.0   *hides away quickly*

[DarkLordX2]

13 hours ago, JSharpie said:

Anytime someone poses a good idea about PVP it gets buried under mountains of "I DON'T LIKE PVP SO I DON'T WANT IT!" and then the thread dies.

I also really hope for some new forms of PVP with the next update.

I don't mind PvP, I just feel that players don't like PvP being mixed with PvE, kind of like the case of Archwing.

[ee3k]

11 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

"real thinkers". The fallacy of pvp.

Because, even though people believe this to be the case, the number one complaint of people that engage in pvp focused games is: People cheesing. OP characters, OP tactics, hiding, back stabbing, pay to win, harassment.The first thing that will happen if a stalker pvp or poe pvp is implemented will be an absolute idiot finding the most ravaging, fool-proof, abusive, almost insulting way to make someone's life miserable. They either find a way to kill from a safe spot or, in a stalker position place, hide well enough to effectively freeze the mission progression and troll people. Then, like parrots, all the other jerks will copy this tactic.

There's no honor at all anywhere. You speak of pvp as a clash of camaraderie where the loser will bow and praise the winner whom will proceed to honorably take the praise and give pointers to the loser. That doesn't happen. People are savages. Hostile, aggressive, ill-intended, ill-mannered. Introduce a pvp system like that and you'll get Warframe to be just as toxic as every other pvp focused game out there: Everyone complaining about cheesing, everyone whining about high level players harassing them, everyone at each other's throats.

I know this kind of scenario must sound exciting for some people, but this game was NOT meant to be that way. There's a ton of other games where you're welcomed to be as much as a **** as you'd like, but not this game. People shouldn't try to turn every game into the same cesspool they're accustomed to. This is a haven for people that just want to play pve for a while and be challenged in a different way than "thinking how to go around the cheesing".

i feel a pvp game mode like "the hidden" would work well.

one player is a tenno, and the other 9 players are corpus , standard weapons, standard layouts. 

kill the tenno and become the tenno next round. 

Warframes strength is co-op so make a Co-op PVP mode.

[Teloch]

@Heatnix. Whoa! Chill bro. You got carried away again. This thread hardly worth any emotions at all, not mentioning an all-out opinionative lecture on PVP and why it suxx. 

[(PSN)fullblast35]

I personally don't like pvp. I initially left a PvP game for warframe but my opinion about PvP doesn't overtake the idea of a game designed with various modes since warframe is unique in it's way and it can take time for a PvP lover to just stick to PvE.  I can't say i'm in the right position to question wether the pvp system is clunky or not but if a part of the community likes it, i don't think threads can be strong enough to burry suggestions to make it more fun for players who like it.  I will agree that the community behavior towards pvp overall can influence the devs, so if you don't like pvp and see someone talking about it, its because they like it, give them a break.  hopefully the less rants on the subject might give a chance to the more experienced pvp players to give their point of views  and devs could pick up on positive changes.

[Draugurr]

I would like to see a better PvP system. The conclave is just meh. But to say that because some people don't like PvP no one can have it is stupid. PvE can only go so far. Some people crave the competitive environment of PvP. They wish to see it for Warframe. Why is it so bad to let them have that? If you don't like PvP you don't have to play it. You can continue grinding the same missions over and over again. No one is going to force you. What is the actual harm that can come of it. Can someone name how their life will be ruined if a proper PvP is implemented? 

 

[WrathAscending]

Again, nobody really minds all that much if PVP is improved.

People do mind that PVP stands to be mixed into PVE.

As long as PVE and PVP stay separated and PVP does not gate any content usable in PVE, nobody will even bat an eyelid.

[Warmage_Timeraider]

If there was a team dedicated to improving pvp, they should remove it and start working on pve. Best way to go for improving pvp in warframe.

The special gametypes are fun, but the generic pvp mode is just useless. To much balancing and mechanics need to be changed to make that work.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Warmage_Timeraider

[SilvaDreams]

6 minutes ago, Warmage_Timeraider said:

If there was a team dedicated to improving pvp, they should remove it and start working on pve. Best way to go for improving pvp in warframe.

The special gametypes are fun, but the generic pvp mode is just useless. To much balancing and mechanics need to be changed to make that work.

There are I think five people whom work on Conclave balance but that is what they were brought on for.

[MystMan]

Looking at the entire game as a whole, I'd say to OP's question:  not gonna happen.

Look at other abandoned game modes. Archwing and Trials.  They also have a very small playerbase who enjoys them but you won't see them persistently keep asking for them to be fixed "so more players will play them." These games, alongside conclave, are just so completely different and detached from the main game that this is the main reason they are not played by the majority in the first place.

Archwing

• Some people get physically sick from it.
• Requires very fast reaction time than the average WF player can muster up, no matter how much they try. (Corpus trench runs)
• Mods are harder to come by.  (Tip: Loot Radar and Thief's Wit on your frame still work in AW missions, you can see & find loot easier this way)
• I clearly remember people wishing for a 6D movement when AW was released, and when we finally got it, most people can't handle it. At least it is optional now and the old mode can be toggled back.

Trials

• Very steep learning curve, very complex and very punishing. Some will say the rewards aren't worth it, but even if you put 100,000 Kuva as a reward, people still wouldn't play them.
• Suffers a lot from bugs. These bugs eventually get fixed but after a long time. Then they get replaced by newer bugs.
• Ironically it is so very co-op oriented, yet that very co-op element ended up driving later new players away because nobody wants to play with them. While WF is a co-op game, the main game doesn't really demand 100% cooperation (only the 2-switch doors), everybody can take care of themselves. So the tight camaraderie isn't really picked up by most players. In trials, cooperation is a must or everybody fails. If you haven't picked up the camaraderie by then, you will likely be one of those players who refuses to listen to others, dooming the mission.
• Law of Retribution's difficulties relies too much on meta frames to be finished properly and quickly. People don't like being forced to choose frames they aren't comfortable with (or don't even have). Jordas Verdict on the other hand doesn't have this handicap, it's easily completed with any frame combination.....but it has Archwing segments (see above).

Conclave

Pretty much everything has been said already about this game mode in this thread. I can only add:

• The constant and many conclave buff/nerf fixes over a long time period give me the impression that the devs don't have the means to ever balance it at all. For every something that was buffed/nerfed, it means that people lost/won because that something was unfairly unbalanced to their disadvantage/advantage the entire time until the fix happened. I wouldn't want to play in such an environment if I was interested in pvp. (used to many years ago, not anymore).
• You have to play it at specific times to be able to encounter other people at all. This restricts people, unable to play whenever they want.
• Your region matters a lot. By merely living in a specific location on earth, you will never find people to play with due to there being no pvp players there at all. And "change your region" is terrible advice since that will obviously have them dealing with high ping. (I don't know how reliable and accessible those private servers are.)

I still play trials almost daily and I love Archwing a lot. But I have long ago accepted that Warframe is larger than me. I would be wasting my time still asking for these game modes to be "fixed" so more players will play them. Not gonna happen. People don't like them by their own choice. And you can't fix other people's choices. The masses have spoken. I'm glad enough they haven't outright removed these alt game modes.

[Vox_Preliator]

I don't understand the arguments against a pseudo-Invasion system.

How often does one revive mean the difference between success and failure?  I can't think of a time I ended a mission on my last life, I either finish after dying once, maybe twice at most or get my everything kicked, the middle ground is miniscule.

If we're worried about trolling and stalling missions, then set some limits.  The not-Stalker is ejected from the mission in five minutes or however long, and cannot damage objects or objectives, or set off alarms of any sort.

If we're worried about "shoehorning" PvP in, how would it be different from regular assassins as far as disrupting your gameplay goes?  Not to mention it should be able to be disabled.

[MystMan]

16 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I don't understand the arguments against a pseudo-Invasion system.

Look at it from a psychological point of view.
Fighting AI and fighting other players are two different things. Two different mental experiences. People play Warframe to either play alone or with others, not against others.
People don't mind the former but reject the latter because:

When AI stalker kills you, he sits down and leaves. You continue playing with the same mood as before.
When you kill AI Stalker, he sits down and leaves. You continue playing with the same mood as before.

When Player Stalker kills you, there is a chance he will throw verbal abuse at you and teabags you. You continue playing with a worse mood after having put up with an insecure manchild.
When you kill Player Stalker, be prepared to have insults and haxusations thrown at you and your mom. You continue playing with a worse mood after having put up with an insecure manchild.
 

Obviously of course, not all pvpers are insecure manchildren. But there is a reason such a strong stigma exists. Those against this idea want a 0% chance of having to deal with that if given the choice.
 

31 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

If we're worried about trolling and stalling missions, then set some limits.  The not-Stalker is ejected from the mission in five minutes or however long, and cannot damage objects or objectives, or set off alarms of any sort.

If we're worried about "shoehorning" PvP in, how would it be different from regular assassins as far as disrupting your gameplay goes?  Not to mention it should be able to be disabled

I also agree with others who say pve and pvp should be kept completely separate. On paper some will always use arguments why it's a good thing.  But actual implementations of new ideas are seldom applied like on paper. Or people find ways to bypass said limitations because they can. It always ends up completely different and worse. Other games have tried merging pve/pvp together with a few limitations, it was always a disaster that did more harm than good.

[WrathAscending]

45 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I don't understand the arguments against a pseudo-Invasion system.

Long and the short of it is that some people simply do not like PVP. I am among them.

They shouldn't be forced to engage in PVP just because someone else wants to.

And no, "but the AI is there to kill you too!" is not an argument.

As for how often getting downed can cost you a mission, it depends on a lot of factors. Up to and including how new the player is and thus what mods they have access to, what Warframes and weapons they have and use, and what levels those items are at. Newer players or less well-equipped ones get hit hard enough by the Stalker as things stand, much less a Stalker which will bounce around like a spider monkey on crack making head shots at will, at least if we take what PVP players have said they intend to do if given the chance to attack other players at their word.

If it really is that hard to find people to play against in Conclave, I invite the PVP players to consider why that may be the case and try to do something about it. I suspect the answer is just that most players really don't like Conclave, since the player base for it clearly hasn't grown in the period since its introduction, despite two Tactical Alerts for it. Whatever the case may be, the solution for a limited PVP player base is not to suddenly make the entire PVE player base a target.

8 minutes ago, MystMan said:

I also agree with others who say pve and pvp should be kept completely separate. On paper some will always use arguments why it's a good thing.  But actual implementations of new ideas are seldom applied like on paper. Or people find ways to bypass said limitations because they can. It always ends up completely different and worse. Other games have tried merging pve/pvp together with a few limitations, it was always a disaster that did more harm than good.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is literally what we saw the first use of PVP Stalker put to. In theory it was meant to let the winner of a PVP competition take the Stalker into missions and hunt skilled, geared-up players. In practice, what they did was target nodes frequented by lowbie and starting players to kill them and/or go into missions like Spy or Defence to force objective and/or mission failures. They also tried to go into Mobile Defence and troll by running away with the data mass, only being defeated in the attempt because they couldn't pick up the data mass at all.

Perhaps the safeguards in the finished mode would be better. I doubt that will stop people from being equally inventive in their efforts.

Edited July 19, 2017 by WrathAscending

[o0Despair0o]

No matter the haters, somebody has to say it:

Warframe is a PvE game. The only way to make PvP good in here is to remove it.