Limbo is godawful annoying to play with even when they're really good

[motorfirebox]

Did the interception sortie today with a Limbo. I will say this, the guy knew what he was doing. He kept enemies CCd with his 4, when other players were in trouble he'd banish them, he kept eximi and other dangerous enemies locked down. He was a solid player and I'd take him with me on any mission.

But not on frickin' Limbo. Limbo is the singularly most annoying frame to have on your team, for the simple reason that it is hair-tearingly frustrating to have to try to remember which enemies you can shoot. Is it the ones with the flames on their feet? Yeah, I can hit those guys! Wait, no, now my bullets aren't reaching them. Oh, okay, it was his weird time stop power. Okay, so... wait, now I can't hit the guys with the feet on fire. Oh, because they're... banished, but inside cataclysm, I think?

I mean, the idea of hopping back and forth between planes is neat, but it's also an entirely separate set of visual cues to learn that simultaneously mutes all other visual cues. I feel like having a Limbo on your team, even a really good one who is genuinely trying to contribute meaningfully, actually makes missions harder. That's not how it should work. I know Limbo got a rework recently, but I think he needs another pass aimed solely at how his powers affect the rest of the team.

[ZenDash]

I feel ya, wish you could filter out Limbo players when going pub like with the chat nowadays lol

 

 

 

_{ofc filtering warframes out like this is kind of a bad idea, but im just saying limbo shouldn't have the power to control how others play}

Edited August 4, 2017 by ZenDash

[NeoHEX31]

I kinda agree to this. And it's not easy to be a "good" Limbo player. like I mean, very difficult. (But well I guess it's not that difficult to play limbo in some mission he's supossed to do)
It seems like he need some changes(?).

I usually play Limbo in solo missions or in very specific Missions like rescue or sortie defense. But Limbo is a support frame right? It doesn't feels right to play support warframe only in Solo where he's good at, but there's many much better frames in Solo missions. So uhh... I don't know what rework work for Limbo.

[Soldier1312]

15 minutes ago, NeoHEX31 said:

I kinda agree to this. And it's not easy to be a "good" Limbo player. like I mean, very difficult. (But well I guess it's not that difficult to play limbo in some mission he's supossed to do)
It seems like he need some changes(?).

I usually play Limbo in solo missions or in very specific Missions like rescue or sortie defense. But Limbo is a support frame right? It doesn't feels right to play support warframe only in Solo where he's good at, but there's many much better frames in Solo missions. So uhh... I don't know what rework work for Limbo.

It is certainly true that Limbo can be annoyance during public game with random players. However if your teammates are the with you and they know what are you about to do with Limbo... Oh boi. 

[NeoHEX31]

1 minute ago, Soldier1312 said:

It is certainly true that Limbo can be annoyance during public game with random players. However if your teammates are the with you and they know what are you about to do with Limbo... Oh boi. 

Yes that's why Limbo is difficult to use, not many people know what Limbo will do. At best they'll just tell you to disable the cataclysm.

But Limbo is indeed a good warframe if you're in party doing long run, endgame stuff. _{or something like that}

[redeyedtreefrog]

The unfortunate fact of limbo is, you need to be in a voice chat with the limbo for him to be even remotely effective. In a game where acrobatics is needed, you might be midroll at the moment a limbo banishes you. But at the same time, we need that roll-to-exit-rift because limbo can either banish you accidentally or he can banish you just to troll you. At the same time, limbo's abilities are wasted if the team does not cooperate. Someone relying on guns or finisher-based melees will recieve very little benefit from stasis, and cataclysm/banish only results in two battlefields to worry about, with only limbo posessing a two-way tool to traverse these fields.

Almost all of the aforementioned things can be quite powerful, but without limbo conveying his purpose to the team (and/or without the team's cooperation) his skills are wasted. But the bottom line of the situation right now is: limbo won't be changed. I don't want to admit it, but he's a very balanced frame. Benefit recieved is relatively equal to the skill and effort put into the equation, and people who like limbo like limbo. Plus, the entire point of limbo is the rift plane, which, for almost anyone who has a problem with limbo, IS the problem. Nothing short of a full thematic overhaul will prevent him from being a terrible frame to be randomly stuck with (as opposed to knowing and planning for his existence), and it just won't happen.

[chainchompguy3]

It is an unfortunate case.

Being able to divide enemies up, so that they are only ever fighting on unfair terms, is a magnificent concept, and limbo is a very good implementation of it.

The inherent problem, however, is that letting one person decide who fights what is by it's very nature going to rob other players of their agency.

But you can't deny that it's extremely powerful, and if played with proper communication, also extremely fun for all involved parties (other than the enemies').

 

Other games have systems somewhat similar, where 1 person has control over other peoples actions to an extent. But they are always balanced by requiring such an ability to be attained through a vote (Squad leaders in games like Planetside 2), or are part of a game where there are no open-pubs: you have to invite the person, and thus have to communicate with them.

 

Warframe doesn't really have that, however. Unless we make an arbitrary change, so that limbo-users are forced to only play "invite-only" matches, this issue will remain.

 

Because there is no way to fix limbo: the only way to give players back the control is to let everyone have the ability to put-pull enemies into/out of the rift. And that just renders limbo a useless tag-along at that point.

And if you try to make the rift non-frustrating by not having it actually isolate anyone, then you take away the one thing that makes it so powerful.

 

So it comes down to 1 question:

would you rather remove limbo from the game (literally, or through identity-stripping rework),

or tolerate him, because you consider him too potent to ignore.

 

Some answer the former, some answer the latter.

and that's why Limbo threads will continue to exist for the rest of warframe's exsistence:

If DE removes him, players who understood his power will beg for him back.

If DE keeps him, players will continue to beg for his destruction.

 

So congrats, OP, for joining in on this now endless tradition of warframe.

Edited August 4, 2017 by chainchompguy3

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Limbo's not the problem. Its the visual cues and maybe the hud. How do other players know that Stasis is in effect? When they shoot and their bullets stop? How do you know that you're in Cataclysm and you're not just Banished and vice versa? You don't unless you're in a big enough room to see Cataclysm's animation borders.

Its mostly QoL stuff. On PS4, I play Limbo a lot. On Lv 100 Eximus Stronghold Sorties, randos a I play with, they know to take advantage of the situation when I drop Cataclysm with Stasis on. Especially on Survivals. Did you know that you can still interact with panels and life support even in Cataclysm using your operator?

[Autongnosis]

The main problem is the visual and audio cues. They should be a lot more refined so as not to make you go in blind whenever there's a limbo on the team. 

IE for example making enemies in a different plane appear as empty silhouettes for everyone that isn't a Limbo would make wonders to avoid those oh F*** moments when you realise you wasted and entire mag on a rifted enemy. 

[Hypernaut1]

I agree that they need to fix the visual cues at the least. 

I hate playing with this new limbo too. He was pretty way easy to understand before. Enemies in bubble can be hit, enemies outside can't. Now its all over the place and very annoying. I hate stasis the most. That skill should only effect limbo

[Mousarchy]

AS a person that likes playing limbo (and still think his new 3 can be an utter NIGHTMARE if one manages to spread to far) I really think the visual ques should be more..obvious. Make it so enemies on seperate planes are more ghostly (kind of like a faint wisp..like some kinda of ghost flashback youd get in a horror game) that way you dont really see them as enemies but can still acknowledge they exist in that area...
ALSO make his friggen portal last longer than 2.5 seconds. Heck conclave at least leaves a perm portal so why is PVE (the place were allies might WANT to jump in the rift to get some kills) lose the ability if they arnt RIGHT on limbos tail waiting for him to change rifts (made worst by the fact that the new 3 if done properly can give limbo a reason NOT to leave the rift. thus making allies have an even harder time being able to jump in to help clean up.

If anything. makeing enemies less noticable in sepereate planes, and making stasis more obvious when its active (sometimes you dont notice it until the guy you shoot in the face dosnt).

Like I like limbo. its hella fun but GAWD does he have some minor fixes that could majorly remove a few annoying tidbits made by the lack of clarity.

[Insizer]

20 hours ago, NeoHEX31 said:

it's not easy to be a "good" Limbo player. like I mean, very difficult. (But well I guess it's not that difficult to play limbo in some mission he's supossed to do)

It can be but at the same time it rather easy.  

1. Use a min/near min range build which brings down your Cataclysm's size to something the size of default Snowglobe.
2. Keep your team in mind.
3. Don't use Cataclysm as a nuke. And when you cast it, cast it off to the sides, so you limit your interference.
4. Only bite off as much as your can chew, don't Banish/Stasis more enemies than you can deal with in a few seconds (unless your Stasis is protecting a stationary objective).
5. Try to look away from your allies when banishing enemies, and if you accidentally Banish an ally, then go and unbanish them.

All of these will make you a decent Limbo player, one that is not only effective, but one that is more or less a team player.

I don't mean to trivialize the difficulty of using Limbo out of malice or something, but my "epiphany" on how to use him literally came from one response (and not a remotely lengthy one at that) to a Players Helping Players thread I made on "how can i be a better Limbo".  The guy basically said the same thing: min range, cast Cataclysm off to the sides, keep your team in mind.  That single post revolutionized how I use Limbo.  The most important recommendation he gave was literally just using a near min range build.

People tend to overcomplicate Limbo.  While it is hard to use him at peak effectiveness while not disrupting allies, it is rather easy, if not trivial, to use him with decent effectiveness while not disrupting allies.

I'll never say I'm one of the best Limbos (I'm only slightly above decent), but I will say that I'm a Limbo that people can easily play along side of.

1 hour ago, Ordosan said:

AS a person that likes playing limbo (and still think his new 3 can be an utter NIGHTMARE if one manages to spread to far) I really think the visual ques should be more..obvious. Make it so enemies on seperate planes are more ghostly (kind of like a faint wisp..like some kinda of ghost flashback youd get in a horror game) that way you dont really see them as enemies but can still acknowledge they exist in that area...
ALSO make his friggen portal last longer than 2.5 seconds.

Now that's a thought, making it look more like Mirage's dark guise on her 3rd ability.  And yes to the portal duration buff.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Insizer

[Krion112]

 

1 hour ago, Ordosan said:

If anything. makeing enemies less noticable in sepereate planes, and making stasis more obvious when its active (sometimes you dont notice it until the guy you shoot in the face dosnt).
 

This is what I'd advocate for. It needs to be distinct whether or not something is in the opposite plane as yourself. It's too hard to quickly and effectively make these determinations, especially in the heat of battle, when it really should be.

Also, I'd say the crowd-control on Banish should ONLY affect enemies or allies, and not catch both, like if you target an enemy, it will only catch enemies. If you target an ally, it will only catch allies. If you're not quite aiming at something, I think it should prioritize enemies. This way I can stop accidentally irritating my allies, who then go on a giant ragefest calling me a troll, when I had no intention of banishing them.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Krion112

[Mizque]

Limbo does need work, try dealing with them while grinding out Nidus parts, his 'rift bubble' that you can't just cancel out of by rolling, your stuck in that wobbledy state makes you unable, to interact with anything in that bubble, be it opening lockers, picking up data masses/ayatan statues or stars/using the health station to restore armor/putting stuff in the vaporizers.  It may not be intentional for people to grief with him, but they do, regardless of intention to do so because that's what his powers are, more than anything, team griefers.  Honestly I shouldn't have to use operator mode to interact with things though, the 'cataclysm' (assuming that's the bubble, I avoid that top hat wearing bastard like the plague personally from 100% neg experience with them) mode should have an 'entry' point to access the plane for it for players (since the warframes are all void/sentient/monstrosity things) and normal enemies aren't, this could make sense where enemies entering the field are punted into the other plane, but warframes have to enter/exit through designated points to do so, unless they are limbo.

[Mousarchy]

2 hours ago, Mizque said:

your stuck in that wobbledy state makes you unable, to interact with anything in that bubble, be it opening lockers, picking up data masses/ayatan statues or stars/using the health station to restore armor/putting stuff in the vaporizers. 

most of that they fixed (can confirm on picking up datapads in the cataclysm.) the only thing you cant do in cata is stand on pads in LOR and hack (why we cant hack i have NO clue) but most things are intractable. but ya it does sound like your issue starts before his rework (im only asuming this because that was around the time people farmed Nidus parts and the fact you pointed out picking up data masses and such which was one of the most important changes they made)

also Im only gaining clarifications. Im not stating that your points/issues are moot.

[PsiWarp]

Speaking of visual cues, I noticed after today's hotfixes enemies in the rift have a more pronounced rippling effect on them. It's a little easier to tell them apart from material-bound enemies.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Would be nice if the player using Limbo would see an indicator on top of the head of a rifted enemy on your hud like a reactant. Sometimes it is hard to keep track of a rifted enemy that gets away from you or a random enemy that was hit by collateral rift surge. Would also help to keep the Limbo player aware if there's still a rifted enemy or not other than the timer counting down under your banish icon.

[Mizque]

Actually no, it was recent, farming for Nidus parts, that the failure to interact with the health station, and failure to be able to boxes into the vaporizer, litterally a few days ago.

[JamesProGamer]

Was playing with a Limbo today and all he did was put people in the void so we could not do ANYTHING. I asked him to stop putting us in the void and he never did. After the mission was over (and we failed) he sent me this. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/275063745477083136/343466208919814144/unknown.png

[JamesProGamer]

Limbo needs to be reworked so that people can't do that type of stuff.

[VoxGray]

1 hour ago, JamesProGamer said:

Limbo needs to be reworked so that people can't do that type of stuff.

Just so you're aware, that player can be reported for that kind of behavior, particularly considering you have proof. And trolling of that depth is possible with several other Frames right now, though it takes a bit of effort. A Valkyr or Ivara modded for high efficiency can spam their Rip Line/Tightrope abilities to make their squad-mates' lives hell.

[JamesProGamer]

2 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

A Valkyr or Ivara modded for high efficiency can spam their Rip Line/Tightrope abilities to make their squad-mates' lives hell.

 

Don't get me wrong, I know that players can troll with other warframes but Limbo seems to be people's go to troll frame right now. Not to say I haven't seen any other trolls but I feel like it's just way too easy and common with Limbo.

Edited August 5, 2017 by JamesProGamer

[VoxGray]

2 hours ago, JamesProGamer said:

Don't get me wrong, I know that players can troll with other warframes but Limbo seems to be people's go to troll frame right now. Not to say I haven't seen any other trolls but I feel like it's just way too easy and common with Limbo.

Limbo is significantly easier to troll with, no doubt. In fact, a lone Limbo can make LoR impossible to complete as soon as you hit the phase with the multi-button lock, by Banishing a player standing on one of the buttons, downing the entire squad if done late enough. He just needs minor tweaks to prevent this easy trolling and improve QoL for him and his squad.

[(PSN)TomRed20019]

Limbo ability need some rework. yes agreed Limbo is annoying 

[el_chanis]

On 3/8/2017 at 11:57 PM, chainchompguy3 said:

 

So it comes down to 1 question:

would you rather remove limbo from the game (literally, or through identity-stripping rework),

or tolerate him, because you consider him too potent to ignore.

 

Some answer the former, some answer the latter.

and that's why Limbo threads will continue to exist for the rest of warframe's exsistence:

If DE removes him, players who understood his power will beg for him back.

If DE keeps him, players will continue to beg for his destruction.

Then DE should stick to the bigger crowd, and the limbo-haters outnumber the limbo players by quite a margin.... 

I still remember some people wanting to keep Carrier as it was... clearly didn't work out for them, and the same should happen here. Limbo gives way too much power to a single player to disrupt others game, and the only defense against that is playing limbo yourself. He must be reworked, if he is going to provide a strong boost to the team, make limbo be the only one who pays the price.