[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Spotdodge]

 

I decided to signal boost my own thread because the first thing I received was a white noise downvote versus constructive disagreement.

[Tau.]

Feedback on Hydroid's kit as it stands now.

 

Passive: wut. No.

Tempest Barrage: Decent utility/cc. Needs faster casting time or higher base duration, though. 5 seconds of cc for nearly 2 seconds between hitting the ability and it going through its cast animation and paying off is still lacking in the value department. Shorten it to 0.5 second or instant cast time uncharged, up it to 8 seconds base duration, or double (or triple) its duration if charged. Any will do.

Tidal Surge: Still feels mostly pointless. Grant it some manner of synergy with his 1 and 4, or at least give it a wide-range vacuum sweep feature (complete with built in ammo mutation). 

Undertow: I'm content with this now tbh. 

Tentacle Swarm: There's a fundamental dichotomy with this ability's current power and its augment, tying a loot-boosting ability to a non-scaling, very low static-damage ability. I need not reiterate to anyone that this is a fast-paced, dynamic game that has no patience for the immensely long time-to-kill of this ability. In the time it takes it to kill even one, 10+ more enemies will have spawned. It doesn't feel even remotely like an ult. It needs either to have its damage scale, or compound, or both, or allow multiple instances to be cast and multiple tentacles' damage to overlap on targets, or the augment (and ability as a whole) needs to be scrapped (and replaced) entirely and the warframe itself needs to receive some manner of a loot-boosting passive instead.

 

Hydroid's 2, 4, and passive still need some massive love if Hydroid Prime is to warrant any real hype. 

[Corial]

Just patiently wait for what DE will do to him if anything.

[--RV--DeadRoy]

(These are all my opinions, feel free to discuss, just please keep the thread civil)

One of Hydroid's biggest problems is the energy economy. He very much relies on his utility / damage dealing skills to support the team, but especially after the rework, he runs out of energy roo quickly.

My idea for a new passive to help his playstyle is the following:
Each enemy hit by any of Hydroid's abilities for the first time restores 5 energy to Hydroid. These include all 4 of his abilites (in the case of undertow, either falling into the puddle itself or grappled manually counts) . Each enemy can only be drained once, and once the drain has occured, the target can no longer be drained by Hydroid's abilities.

Think about it like this: Hydroid is the manipulator of water, why not have him absorb some water from the bodies of enemies (yes, even infested enemies...think of their blood like cucmber fluids) to strengthen himself ?

What do you think ?

[Artesians]

I'm not sure if posts back here will be read, but there's still discontent about Hydroid. On top of this, as of Dev Stream 97, DE is no longer willing to exert more time into fleshing out a new kit for Hydroid. As it stands:

Passive Ability:

I can't believe this ability wasn't changed. Slam attacks spawning a single tentacle? Yawn and pass. Give him something that encourages his spellcasting nature. Here are some basic ideas: Increased casting times or power strength when casting successive abilties.

Tempest Barrage:

With the new combo with Undertow, Hydroid's 1 no longer seems useless, does it? I have no qualms with the ability.

Tidal Surge:

Good mobility, decent invincibility frame, but has no synergy with his other abilities, considering enemies aren't scooped up by the ability. Perhaps reduced energy cost when using it in succession?

Undertow:

The most problematic ability in terms of "interaction," though adding the tentacle grab was smart. Now, it's still not a fun ability to use because, well, you're literally a puddle. I think adding a "secondary" ability or an augment that allows the player to hold down Undertow to create a whirlpool that is stationary, separate from Hydroid. This way, players have the tactical ability to enter Undertow as a survival ability or to use it as an autonomous AoE. 

Tentacle Swarm:

I like the fact that you guys made it easier to attack enemies swept up in the tentacles, but they could use some scaling damage too.

 

 

[Archistopheles]

Few frames generate energy, and they are delegated to support roles. There are ways of getting energy, and using less energy. Asking for a rework just to suit your playstyle probably won't go over well with the community at large.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

8 hours ago, Squidsy22 said:

 

Also, passive could be called "Pillage and Plunder"

Just a suggestion

Good idea!

[(PSN)StarDustKillah]

I finally got to play w/ my old Sea Salty main on PS4.

So here's what I'd like to see changed to him (w/ current Undertow buffs on PC.)

1. The implication to have some sort of control while using Tidal Surge. It's a really cool ability... But it always sucks when you bump or touch a wall or surface and your brought to a complete halt. Would be sick to simply turn it while zooming down corridors a million miles an hour, would see him get plenty of use by the Gotta Go Fast Community members lol.

2. Can the Kraken actually do something? ... like... why is it even here? It just looks at the ground... and sniffs a toe or too. Like I don't know man, make actually do something. Like have it grab some enemies & make a separate undertow. Or maybe a roulette wheel gimmick... like it has a random chance to cast anyone of Hydroid's abilities  every 10 seconds (At no cost to Hydroid or deactivate his current abilities)? Could incentivize building for duration over a more balanced build?

IDK But I'd like to see either or both of these done.

[(PSN)Springer_Prime]

Ive been playing WF on the Ps4 since it started... and Ive seen reworks, buffs, nerfs happen all the time.  Regardless of how I personally felt about each one, I have never been taken from totally excited to completely crushed before.  I love hydroid.  He has always had a special place in my heart since day one.  I accepted he was squisher that many WF but he had abilities beyond the other WF that made him special in given situations.  Farming and Survival missions.  With the add of PS augment I add.  I never had to worry about enough oxy packs and it was the best WF hands down when I needed to farm for drops (mods or res) and my build could keep up with damage/kill ratios with most other WF.

Until the update/rework.  At first I was excited with the buffs in Armor /energy.  The synergy sounded awesome.  Until I played mine....

It just so happens I needed to farm for poly the day before the rework.  I pulled 7k poly out of a DS survival mission in 20 mins.  Twice.  killing 24% of the enemies with a full team.  Pulling my own weight you see.  Today... I ran the same 2 missions.   Did 4 to 6% of damage/kills and far less drops and for the first time since PS augment was released I had to hit oxy supply towers to make it 15 min.  

 

For months I was more excited about a new Primed WF than I have been in years.  Now I dont even know if I want him anymore.  The one thing that made Hydroid stand apart.  You NERFED.  I loved the new visuals.  But that does nothing for me if the WF no longer is effective.  I know DE well enought that there probably wont be any reversal of the rework.. Thats the rub.  I sure as hell will not Buy Hydroid Prime now... 

 

Springer Prime

[(XBOX)SCHM4TT]

I've always been a fan of Hydroids design so I'm happy the poor guy is getting love! I can't believe I'm saying this but I've actually been enjoying the puddle. I don't have to many suggestions actually. Maybe increasing the puddles movement speed and/or giving him a reduced cost for Tidal Surge while in undertow. He moves so slow it almost feels pointless right now.

Another thing I think would be good is a visual indicator  that enemies are submerged in the puddle. Maybe splashing on the surface to represent enemies drowning? Would help teammates know what you're doing.

Lastly his passive is... not amazing. Maybe replace it but I think a easier solution would just be to make the tentacle summon more consistent idk. 

[KaeseSchnitte]

For [Update 21.5]

I'd like to make four reasonable and one unreasonable request to make Hydroid a little bit more... fluid. Let's start with the reasonable ones:

1. Submerged enemies travel with Hydroid
   • Having enemies "fall out" of his puddle is really annoying and it prevents Hydroid from effectively rounding up all enemies
   • All enemies that enter his puddle, no matter if they walk into it, Hydroid crawls to them, or passes under them by using Tidal Surge while submerged, should be kept in the puddle until they are dead or Undertow is cancelled
2. Hydroid removes burn procs when activating Undertow
   • He is invulnerable anyways, adding this would just allow him to directly come back up again
   • Maybe it could remove burn procs from allies walking on Undertow as well
3. Tentacles that haven't captured an enemy crawl towards enemies
   • WIth each "slap" of the tentacle, it moves forwards as if it would pull itself forward
   • This will hopefully make the tentacles hit enemies more consistent, or at least look cool
4. Clicking on a tentacle that holds an enemy while in Undertow will make the tentacle throw the enemy into the puddle
   • Self-explanatory really, but it would probably look cool as well

The unreasonable request would be to change Undertow into an "submerged room", in which all the enemies are held and can be shot at. Additionally, teammates can enter Undertow as "passengers" by looking straight down and jumping. This would allow Hydroid to act as a "bus" to traverse dangerous terrain. This would probably be as useful as Ivara's ziplines, but it would also definitely be as much fun as those ziplines.

[Berzerkir]

Remind me again why puddle hasn't been retconned? its a lot like the changes to fire blast. just get rid of the move and make something more interesting/functional

[Dragonmethaddict]

I honestly think that Hydroid is in a good spot. I enjoy playing him, the damage of undertow isn't enough to make me play ONLY him, and his survivability keeps him from being too powerful. And with the Prime coming out, i'm excited to see what happens. 

[Rfus]

Seeing as DE has officially stated that they would not be looking at any drastic reworks for Hydroid, here are some simple ideas to focus on further improving his current abilities.

• Reduce the energy cost of Tidal Surge

Simple enough really; make it feasible to use this ability to consistently move around while in Undertow.

 

• Trap enemies while inside of Undertow

This is currently the biggest limiting factor of Hydroid right now. Being forced to sit in place while passively dealing damage is painfully dull and non-interactive. If Hydroid could swim around sucking people into his puddle, it would vastly improve his interactivity and viability.

 

• Make tentacle swarm apply corrosive to an active Undertow

Currently Undertow only deals noteworthy damage when combined with the Corroding Barrage augment. This change would give his abilities better innate synergy (at a higher energy cost than Tempest Barrage as a tradeoff for convenience and mobility) and improve his thematic appeal as well. Tentacle swarm activating corrosive procs on trapped enemies would give the sense that the now active Kraken is devouring them for massive damage as opposed to the minor drowning damage they normally take.

 

• Make the Kraken follow your Undertow for the full duration of Tentacle Swarm (purely cosmetic)

Currently the Kraken visual is completely wasted as it only appears for a brief few seconds when cast before submerging. Instead of disregarding this model entirely, it should instead be attached to the Undertow puddle for its duration. This would give the sense that the player is instead transforming into and controlling the Kraken when combining these two abilities. When leaving Undertow the Kraken would submerge, and reemerge when reentering Undertow. Tentacle Swarm would maintain its current functionality outside of this visual change.

 

No major rework necessary, just four simple adjustments to make Hydroid more interactive and thematically appealing.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Rfus

[Breathren]

The recent changes to undertow are nice, the damage is intense. I think it is wrong and very OP. It only encourages going AFK with Hydroid. Instead move those damage changes to all his other abilities, Barrage and Swarm will be much more powerful with this change without being OP to the point the just one shot enemies, doing damage over time would be much nicer in his kit. As for Surge it should have a extremely high multiplier for hitting multiple enemies, take a wave towards 5 enemies it would be nice to kill at least one or two of them. His damage needs to be on all his other abilities besides undertow, currently undertow is his only reliable damage dealing ability and it seriously just encourages AFKing interception missions. Please consider buffing his 1, 2, and 4 with the exact same damage buffs undertow got, make him the frame that you only aim at groups not single enemies.

[(XBOX)S9X]

Since most tentacles spawn under the enemies when Tentecal Swarm is cast, You could shorten thier length by half or maybe a third, slower and lower to the ground could be easier to hit by allies.

Maybe limit one enemy per tentacle and scale damage a bit, or maybe add an increased status or critical chance while held by said tentacle.

Speed his Undertow up to about the same as Ivara's 3. Since he can't roll for distance like her there is still use for Tidal Surge.

Any enemy touched while his Undertow is active should stay in, even while moving.

Any enemy passed through during Tidal Surge while his Undertow is active should be also taken in for the cost of energy.

When an enemy under the effects of Tentecal Swarm dies he should be dropped by that tentecal.

That's my ideas.

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by (XB1)Esninex

[Ventura_Highway]

11 hours ago, Archistopheles said:

Few frames generate energy, and they are delegated to support roles.

You can argue Harrow, Trinity and Limbo function as supports but Nidus, Ember, and Saryn aren't. Saryn and Ember are not significant examples but boy Nidus sure is.

[Guest]

This "rework" sucks and amounts to minor qol changes that should have happened a long time ago, plus a $&*&*#(%& op buff that's not only not warranted, but also was not requested by the players.  The vast majority of the abilities interactions seem to be unintended glitches that you're indifferent about fixing.

Barrage still hits everything but the people you aim it at, including overhead structures nowhere near where you aim.  Charging barrage takes far more than twice as long to cast, for twice the cost, and simply twice the duration gained.  Charge casting it is NEVER beneficial.  You simply end up spending more of your total time sitting in the charge cast animation.  There's also no visual indicator for how much of a charge cast you're performing.

Surge overall is still clumsy and it doesn't synergize with undertow as well as it should.  Range scaling is the same as rhinos old charge scaling, which was determined to be bad.  Surge leaves behind enemies who were trapped by undertow.  It ragdolls enemies who then get caught on environmental objects or don't get taken into undertow.  You don't loot while surging, but your sentinel can vacuum.

Undertow base movement speed is too slow and only scales (just barely) with sprint speed mods.  It's range scaling is non-existent.  It's damage is too high, and it shouldn't be the focus of the kit.  Undertow disables all of your companions and their precepts, but allows them to be hurt by aoe.  You cannot loot, your sentinel cannot vacuum, and your chesa cannot retrieve while in undertow.  Undertow prevents enemies from being struck by tentacle swarm, and with actually pull enemies off of tentacles while at the same time restricting swarm casts to the area covered by the puddle itself.  Even charge casting swarm from within undertow does absolutely nothing for you but waste energy, since the extra range and tentacles are stuck to the puddle surface only, and the tentacles can't hit anything in the puddle anyways.  Moving the puddle doesn't move enemies who are trapped in the puddle.

Tentacle swarm is the most self-defeating ability there is.  As soon as the tentacles spawn, they launch the enemies into the sky, where they can't be hurt or grabbed by the tentacles, or even shot.  If an enemy is grabbed, the tentacle flails them around, so that you can't shoot them.  Even slow flailing is too much to quickly shoot.  There's too much going on during combat to sit there and try to shoot a randomly shaking target.  The damage still is garbage.  The targeting still is entirely RNG.

Does the glass frame really need to be completed for eidolon release?  Can we focus more on fixing something that's clearly broken?

[Navarc]

11 hours ago, Deadroy97 said:

(These are all my opinions, feel free to discuss, just please keep the thread civil)

One of Hydroid's biggest problems is the energy economy. He very much relies on his utility / damage dealing skills to support the team, but especially after the rework, he runs out of energy roo quickly.

My idea for a new passive to help his playstyle is the following:
Each enemy hit by any of Hydroid's abilities for the first time restores 5 energy to Hydroid. These include all 4 of his abilites (in the case of undertow, either falling into the puddle itself or grappled manually counts) . Each enemy can only be drained once, and once the drain has occured, the target can no longer be drained by Hydroid's abilities.

Think about it like this: Hydroid is the manipulator of water, why not have him absorb some water from the bodies of enemies (yes, even infested enemies...think of their blood like cucmber fluids) to strengthen himself ?

What do you think ?

I've got a similar passive written up in my thread, yours is a bit faster and self-sufficient but I think they fulfill the same purpose. What do you think?

Hydroenergetic: Prone enemies that die in Hydroids affinity aura generate 2 energy to all allies in the affinity aura.

[--RV--DeadRoy]

29 minutes ago, Navarchus said:

I've got a similar passive written up in my thread, yours is a bit faster and self-sufficient but I think they fulfill the same purpose. What do you think?

Hydroenergetic: Prone enemies that die in Hydroids affinity aura generate 2 energy to all allies in the affinity aura.

I've read your ability suggestions. I like how they would give more utility / crowd control to the frame, making the frame much more useful (both solo and in teams). Even if Hydroid can't deal immense amounts of damage (save for undertow's scaling damage), he would be one of the best "lockdown" Warframes, kinda like how Vauban is right now with his Bastille and Vacuum, but Hydroid would be different in playstyle, adding more variety to the game.

I've also read your passive suggestions. They are interesting, they would all make the frame a bit more unique, but I like your energy restoration passive (Hydroenergetic) the most, because Hydroid would be able to keep up his abilities for much longer sessions, keeping the enemies locked down so your teammates can finish them, while you'd also be restoring some energy to your teammates.

On a side note, being self sufficient isn't a common theme in warframes, and I don't consider it overpowered, I consider it a unique feature which would make the given warframe more fun (given that it isn't too powerful, like for example, restoring 25 energy per hit on an enemy). All the warframes who have an energy restoration feature so far - either for themselves (Nidus) or for their teammates (Trinity) - don't have powerul, scaling damage abilities (Nidus' first ability is an exception, I'll admit that, but I consider him more of a Tank in my opinion), they have it for survivability/assistance (again, for themselves or for their teammates). If Hydroid were to have an energy restoring passive, he would be the first self sufficient warframe to be decked with crowd controlling abilities only (and only undertow would be a bigger damage dealing ability for endgame).

[Hypernaut1]

It's a clear trend that every frame rework has as "problem with energy economy" threads created. 

I don't think any frame is meant for you to spam their powers with default efficiency.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Navarc]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

It's a clear trend that every frame rework has as "problem with energy economy" these created. 

I don't think any frame is meant for you to spam their powers with default efficiency.

It's unfortunate how all warframes are designed around you using either zenurik, energy siphon or  efficiency mods. Sometimes two of them even. I'm not even referring to "spamming".
Nidus is the only one who doesn't suffer from it because the worse efficiency he has the more energy he generates so it balances itself out.

[--RV--DeadRoy]

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It's a clear trend that every frame rework has as "problem with energy economy" these created. 

I don't think any frame is meant for you to spam their powers with default efficiency.

 

1 minute ago, Navarchus said:

It's unfortunate how all warframes are designed around you using either zenurik, energy siphon or  efficiency mods. Sometimes two of them even. I'm not even referring to "spamming".
Nidus is the only one who doesn't suffer from it because the worse efficiency he has the more energy he generates so it balances itself out.

It used to be "different" before corrupted mods arrived in the game. You only had your basic ability mods (intensifiy, stretch, etc.). You truly had to rely more on your whole arsenal, which I actually liked more than what we have now. The reason I rely on "power spamming" is to even out the broken enemy scaling past the higher levels, by keeping them under crowd control, otherwise, they'll just one-shot you (save for a few frames with survivability, like Inaros, Nidus, Mesa, Rhino, probably more frames).

[JetstreamAlex]

Actually I think that the real Hydroid's problem for me is Tentacle Swarm. It is the ultimate ability but is boring, useless, with stupid AI, and only good to farm (with augment).

Hydroid already have 3 static ability, so my idea is to make the Kraken mobile like a Kubrow! Or to do en Exalted Kraken!

Edited August 19, 2017 by JetstreamAlex

[(PSN)crashtester17]

16 hours ago, Artesians said:

I'm not sure if posts back here will be read, but there's still discontent about Hydroid. On top of this, as of Dev Stream 97, DE is no longer willing to exert more time into fleshing out a new kit for Hydroid. As it stands:

Passive Ability:

I can't believe this ability wasn't changed. Slam attacks spawning a single tentacle? Yawn and pass. Give him something that encourages his spellcasting nature. Here are some basic ideas: Increased casting times or power strength when casting successive abilties.

Tempest Barrage:

With the new combo with Undertow, Hydroid's 1 no longer seems useless, does it? I have no qualms with the ability.

Tidal Surge:

Good mobility, decent invincibility frame, but has no synergy with his other abilities, considering enemies aren't scooped up by the ability. Perhaps reduced energy cost when using it in succession?

Undertow:

The most problematic ability in terms of "interaction," though adding the tentacle grab was smart. Now, it's still not a fun ability to use because, well, you're literally a puddle. I think adding a "secondary" ability or an augment that allows the player to hold down Undertow to create a whirlpool that is stationary, separate from Hydroid. This way, players have the tactical ability to enter Undertow as a survival ability or to use it as an autonomous AoE. 

Tentacle Swarm:

I like the fact that you guys made it easier to attack enemies swept up in the tentacles, but they could use some scaling damage too.

 

 

Maybe instead of slam attacks spawning a tentacle it could be melee kills instead.

I think the first ability could use a little more base duration and not be a charge.

Having the ability to steer tidal surge seems to be something I've heard and read quite a bit that would make him more fun for more players. Maybe an animation change too, from becoming a tidal wave like an elemental, to Surfing or riding the tidal wave like a commander of the seas.

The undertow fix with the augment seems like it would just upset half the people who play Hydroid and don't like being afk since that would mean they would lose another mod slot for making him do something they think should just be a part of the power. Having the option to move in and out of undertow seems to be a popular request. 

 

As for tentacle swarm a lot of people seem to be asking for more damage but that's not necessary. A warframe's fourth ability doesn't always have to be damage. Loki's fourth does little damage with augment and it's an amazing ability. Rhino's fourth does some damage but the thing that's really great about it is it holds enemies in the air while they can't do anything.

I think that giving Hydroid's tentacles some really strong crowd control would be enough. Maybe each tentacle can grab more than one enemy? Or, If the scaling damage was explored what if the tentacles beat enemies with the enemies that they picked up and they do more damage based on the remaining health of the enemies that are grabbed.  

 

Also I've noticed that some weapons have trouble hitting the enemies caught by the tentacle swarm. I've tried shooting the enemies with the zarr and it will clearly hit them and do nothing.