Reminder that Napalms need a nerf.

[(PSN)theelix]

Napalms are absolutely ludicrous and truly need reductions in all areas. 

They have twice the health of a Bombard and the same armor. 

Their projectiles at 5 meters away do slightly less than the Bombard rocket does when it hits you. 

Their projectile has a 10 meter AoE radius on initial contact that can proc heat, and also leaves behind a very high damaging ball of fire for something near 10 seconds. 

Unlike Bombards, their projectiles can't be destroyed with a long range melee attack. 

 

Edit: Before anyone says it, yes. We need this, and this will be our savior. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by (PS4)theelix

[VoxGray]

Wow, a whole eight minutes without some "l33t pro gamer" coming by to tell you to  git gud and stop complaining? Must still be sleeping.

On topic, I rarely have issues with Napalms myself, but that's because I tend to stay far, far away from them and nuke them from a distance if possible. Their potential for damage is just too high to get in close, and much higher than their ridiculous health/armor stats justify. Either make them glassier to make up for their damage, or lower their damage so their tankiness isn't a problem. These guys aren't supposed to feel like a miniboss.

[Gamma745]

My only problem with those guys is the AoE damage. It's too big, the flame visual doesn't show it, and if it's fired in a small map (which is the majority of tileset in the game) you have no hope to avoid it's damage and it's fire proc.

[KawaiirawrxDkys]

I mean there has to be some kind of threat to us.......

[Zyneris]

I'm sad I can only upvote this once!

[Troll_Logic]

Nope.

Don't you think there should be something in the game that's dangerous?

99% of the time players can run around without a care in the world.

[torint_man]

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Nope.

Don't you think there should be something in the game that's dangerous?

99% of the time players can run around without a care in the world.

Yeah, but napalm are dangerous in a wrong way. 10 meter AoE is way too large, and because they don't have a distinct presence (think nullifier or Nox), you get bonked with no warning, due to the fact that they don't need line of sight to obliterate you. All what needs to change is the ludicrous AoE. A 10 meter radius that goes through walls and frost bubbles is BS incarnate. Since it's possible to be hit by them without seeing them, I think is all the evidence you need that Napalms need an AoE reduction, like to 3 or 4 meters, actually reflecting the ball of fire they leave.

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

Yeah, but napalm are dangerous in a wrong way. 10 meter AoE is way too large, and because they don't have a distinct presence (think nullifier or Nox), you get bonked with no warning, due to the fact that they don't need line of sight to obliterate you. All what needs to change is the ludicrous AoE. A 10 meter radius that goes through walls and frost bubbles is BS incarnate. Since it's possible to be hit by them without seeing them, I think is all the evidence you need that Napalms need an AoE reduction, like to 3 or 4 meters, actually reflecting the ball of fire they leave.

My Ignis kills everything through walls.  Think the grineer have a forum where they can complain about that?

[Archistopheles]

11 hours ago, (PS4)theelix said:

Before anyone says it, yes. We need this, and this will be our savior. 

You know it exists, right?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Flame_Repellent

[(PSN)theelix]

26 minutes ago, Archistopheles said:

You know it exists, right?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Flame_Repellent

But not to the extent the image jokes about. 

And I'm pretty sure we're weak to fire, so that number is basically nothing. 

[Archistopheles]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

And I'm pretty sure we're weak to fire

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

 

Heat is +/- 0% VS our Shields, and VS our Flesh (hp)

[torint_man]

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

My Ignis kills everything through walls.  Think the grineer have a forum where they can complain about that?

Enemy capability need not reflect the players capabilities. Killing through walls is fine for the player to do (it's a horde shooter after all), as most methods of doing so don't scale too well, especially against armored enemies (i.e. good luck killing napalms through walls in sorties with your ignis). The only method that scales effectively is slash proccing long range melee i.e. atterax. Might as well give the grineer an atterax wielding unit that only uses slide attacks then. Give the corpus a world on fire equivalent unit, and the infested a unit you have to kill seven times to actually kill it (referring to nidus).

So yeah, allowing the napalm to hit in a gargantuan range through walls shouldn't be considered """Fair""" just because we can do the same to it. I'd be fine with dying to a unit through walls if I had the ability to counter it. Yeah, I can kill them to "counter" them, but that's not what I mean. Unless DE makes Napalms like bursas, they need changing. You know why I am okay with isolator bursas despite their position as the most threatening bursa? They make distinct sounds, lotus indicates that they spawn, and they have a distinct appearance. I know when they are around, and I can locate them both visually and audibly. All what naplams have visually is being a slightly bigger lancer. Their sounds only come from their weapons, meaning that it's possibly too late to react, as they would have already initiated their carpet bombing.

So what's the solution? Either halve or more their AoE, or make them bursa tier enemies. That would entail lotus indicating their existence when they spawn, them making distinct noises by just existing, and having a distinct and unmistakable appearance. 

[Marthrym]

It's the sheer size of the AOE their seeking projectiles use that always baffled me. It's ridiculous. Gets you through cover, walls, doors, anything really, and tends to put a fire DoT on you more often than not... I want the same weapon they use, seriously. Cover at least should protect from that AOE, not just running away to a different tile (slight exaggeration, but only slight) or killing them before they can even fire.

10 hours ago, torint_man said:

Enemy capability need not reflect the players capabilities. Killing through walls is fine for the player to do (it's a horde shooter after all), as most methods of doing so don't scale too well, especially against armored enemies (i.e. good luck killing napalms through walls in sorties with your ignis). The only method that scales effectively is slash proccing long range melee i.e. atterax. Might as well give the grineer an atterax wielding unit that only uses slide attacks then. Give the corpus a world on fire equivalent unit, and the infested a unit you have to kill seven times to actually kill it (referring to nidus).

So yeah, allowing the napalm to hit in a gargantuan range through walls shouldn't be considered """Fair""" just because we can do the same to it. I'd be fine with dying to a unit through walls if I had the ability to counter it. Yeah, I can kill them to "counter" them, but that's not what I mean. Unless DE makes Napalms like bursas, they need changing. You know why I am okay with isolator bursas despite their position as the most threatening bursa? They make distinct sounds, lotus indicates that they spawn, and they have a distinct appearance. I know when they are around, and I can locate them both visually and audibly. All what naplams have visually is being a slightly bigger lancer. Their sounds only come from their weapons, meaning that it's possibly too late to react, as they would have already initiated their carpet bombing.

So what's the solution? Either halve or more their AoE, or make them bursa tier enemies. That would entail lotus indicating their existence when they spawn, them making distinct noises by just existing, and having a distinct and unmistakable appearance. 

This. To much this. Thank you.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Marthrym

[BlueberryIsWar]

18 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Nope.

Don't you think there should be something in the game that's dangerous?

99% of the time players can run around without a care in the world.

Don't know, my mag pretty much gets rekt by everything above 30 pretty fast.

[TaylorsContraction]

The only problem with napals is that their weapons are 100% silent. I have asked for this in the past and believe this is the only thing that needs changing. Add a distinct audio effect to the napalm missiles. They are like stealth tech, same for the bombards. These imo are the only changes they need.

And don't get me wrong, if you're staring them in the eyes from 5 meters away, yeah their weapons make a noise when they FIRE the missiles, but the projectiles themselves are silent, so when they fire them from 50 meters away, you will have no idea what's coming at you until it's there.

[(PSN)theelix]

1 hour ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

Don't know, my mag pretty much gets rekt by everything above 30 pretty fast.

What? It's a mag, shields are the worst form of defense in the game and on top of that she has no armor value. Slash procs end her in no time, she's a glass cannon. 

1 hour ago, Marthrym said:

It's the sheer size of the AOE their seeking projectiles use that always baffled me. It's ridiculous. Gets you through cover, walls, doors, anything really, and tends to put a fire DoT on you more often than not... I want the same weapon they use, seriously. Cover at least should protect from that AOE, not just running away to a different tile (slight exaggeration, but only slight) or killing them before they can even fire.

This. To much this. Thank you.

Also, I did a lot of testing to see what could combat the Napalms... Frost is helpless if you rely on SnowGlobe. It can hit in a 10 meter radius, so at the very least you need >200% range just to be protected at the epicenter of your globe. Which is, basically, a full rank overextended and a rank two or three cunning drift. At that point, you have barely any power strength and you can't move from the cast point, it's ludicrous that they can cover so much range AND do so much damage. 

As far as I've been able to see, Volt's shield is the only guaranteed protection if you can predict or guarantee the direction the AoE is coming from with a high percentage of accuracy. If it's even a little off the floor, it hits your toes and you die. 

[kgabor]

Napalm? To be entirely honest i don't even notice these unless they spawn at a Spy vault as an Eximus. That's basically also the only time i might have problem dealing with them and even then they only manage to be slightly annoying when i'm playing Limbo and want to rush the mission. (i don't use stealth frames for Spy, i don't even play much Spy)

Outside that their spawn rate is even lower than Nox spawn rates and they still get one-two shotted just like Nox up to sortie 3 content with a decently modded Rektis or a CL dagger. (and Rektis Prime isn't even that great when you're not favored by the RNGod)

Sounds should ofc. be added to projectiles if that would make them more realistic, but Bombard and Napalm projectiles are like torps, so slow it makes sense they don't make much sound

[Chipputer]

I'm calling shenanigans on anyone who claims they don't spawn often enough to be a problem. Stop zooming through all of your low level missions and you'll start to see why Napalms become an anomaly of game balance. Commanders are terrible, too, and I've heard the same, "but you barely see them," argument to try and justify their existence as-is.

Unless you're using the most powerful methods to kill your enemies, a Napalm with armor is basically a brick wall that you're coming at with a chisel. Everything else, by comparison, is a wall you're going at with a sledge hammer. One takes much longer to kill than the others for no discernible reason except artificial difficulty. You then add that if you see them shoot anywhere nearby your position that you'd better be able to relocate to at least 11m away from wherever the fire lands or say goodbye to a huge chunk of health that only gets larger and larger as the levels scale-- not uncommon to be one shot by a Napalm by the time you hit Sortie 2 and 3 levels, particularly when they spawn in as an eximus unit.

Even using the most powerful weapons still requires 4 CP or some other armor removal for the Napalm to not take considerably longer to kill at levels where the enemies don't immediately die by the player sneezing on them.

In short, it's quite obvious that anyone who doesn't notice the clear imbalance of a Napalm is rushing through low level missions using the most powerful gear available to them.

[(PSN)theelix]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I'm calling shenanigans on anyone who claims they don't spawn often enough to be a problem. Stop zooming through all of your low level missions and you'll start to see why Napalms become an anomaly of game balance. Commanders are terrible, too, and I've heard the same, "but you barely see them," argument to try and justify their existence as-is.

Unless you're using the most powerful methods to kill your enemies, a Napalm with armor is basically a brick wall that you're coming at with a chisel. Everything else, by comparison, is a wall you're going at with a sledge hammer. One takes much longer to kill than the others for no discernible reason except artificial difficulty. You then add that if you see them shoot anywhere nearby your position that you'd better be able to relocate to at least 11m away from wherever the fire lands or say goodbye to a huge chunk of health that only gets larger and larger as the levels scale-- not uncommon to be one shot by a Napalm by the time you hit Sortie 2 and 3 levels, particularly when they spawn in as an eximus unit.

Even using the most powerful weapons still requires 4 CP or some other armor removal for the Napalm to not take considerably longer to kill at levels where the enemies don't immediately die by the player sneezing on them.

In short, it's quite obvious that anyone who doesn't notice the clear imbalance of a Napalm is rushing through low level missions using the most powerful gear available to them.

To be honest, for me I mostly noticed it recently when I was running farms for Sovereign outcast. 

There was two or three Napalms every forty-five seconds and by forty-minutes I found that my health was being reduced to nothing regardless of how I dodged or what cover I used because the Napalm would just randomly fire. It didn't matter where the projectile landed, it just did two thousand damage on impact with a wall near me. I couldn't even see where it landed half the time because the Napalm would be under me shooting at the roof. Even when I turned invisible it didn't matter because of this glitch where the enemy will shoot infinitely and shoot at the EXACT last spot that it heard you/received damage from if you're using melee. 

Napalms are a problem the same way Corpus Techs were a problem. Too much damage and in this case also too much range. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 8/24/2017 at 6:54 AM, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

Wow, a whole eight minutes without some "l33t pro gamer" coming by to tell you to  git gud and stop complaining? Must still be sleeping.

On topic, I rarely have issues with Napalms myself, but that's because I tend to stay far, far away from them and nuke them from a distance if possible. Their potential for damage is just too high to get in close, and much higher than their ridiculous health/armor stats justify. Either make them glassier to make up for their damage, or lower their damage so their tankiness isn't a problem. These guys aren't supposed to feel like a miniboss.

Since they added the toxic guy, i get downed usually because he pops up unexpectedly while im killing grineer as usual and i whack him and go one to whack the next thing before realizing the thing i wacked didnt go down and has a glass helmet...then i turn around and get blasted.

Every. Time. 

But...i think a napalm variant would be interesting. Im picturing shooting the tank and making him explode.

[kgabor]

Nop, they are pretty rare even in sorties and their projectiles are a joke, i have to be asleep to even get hit by them.

They are already dumbed down to the point of EZ mode and they aren't that tough if they get hit in the head with a high damage weapon, all that needs a change is for these high damage weapons to be made more consistent because they are left out in RNG hell.

[VideoJack]

On 8/24/2017 at 6:20 PM, Troll_Logic said:

Think the grineer have a forum where they can complain about that?

I bet that would be a fun read. Someone should make that happen.

[Xzorn]

Napalms are the 2nd most broken enemy in terms of scaling after Commanders.

Used to be able to avoid them on endurance runs but ever since the Starmap revamp they were added to more Grineer maps.

I'd also like to add that when they made Frost's Snow Globe block radial damage they failed to also make it block ground based AoE. This would include the lingering Fire effect from Napalms and Tar Moa's puddles. Volt's Shield however works.