No more energy regen

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

20 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Zenurik and Naramon completely bypassed this by giving you abilities so powerful that people began only equipping them in order to use said abilities and completely changed their build philosophy around them, many with the opinion that focus was only useful for passives and had no merit outside of that.

(Emphasis by me)

The reason for that, as Brozime so elegantly pointed out, is that there is no reason to invest into an ability you can only use every 3-5 minutes, especially when every 'investment' increases the time between uses. Passives, on the other hand, are worth investing in because even if you increase the time between uses to 5+ minutes, you get the effect for the rest of the mission after that, with no cooldown.

There is a reason why no warframes abilities have cooldowns. They may have "No recast while Active", but they are always either doing something, or waiting for you to recast them.

Then we have focus, where every thing you change about the ability, useful or not, adds to the cooldown timer. As Brozime said, "Why would I add 45 seconds of cooldown to gain 10 seconds of invisibility, when I could add 45 seconds to get unlimited invisibility?" (Paraphrased). In the same vein, why add 45 seconds to get +25% crit chance for 20 seconds when you can get +30% for the rest of the mission. And if there were no passives in Focus, I doubt anyone would have taken them seriously, since they have such ridiculously long cooldown.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

(Emphasis by me)

*snip*

I can't really find fault in this logic.  

[(XBOX)Oussii]

On 9/15/2017 at 11:19 PM, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

Energy siphon is a poor excuse to generate sufficient energy and honestly just ALWAYS left me wanting something more effective. I also couldn't stand using blind rage due to the poor energy economy. Zenuriks energy regen was the only thing that encouraged and allowed me to have fun with high energy cost builds... Orbs are just RNG.. RIP my blind rage chroma.. You were barely able to recast powers after your duration ran out. Now you cannot XD well everyone. Hope our focus trees so t get the nerf too hard.

Use Rakta Dark Dagger with Glimming Blight, and you get 40 energy on each proc

[DJ_Vauban]

It's actually kinda sad. DE wants us to use a variety of stuff, yet, they gimp us again by taking away energy overflow which will most likely only result in people using energy siphon and mod for efficiency more again. I actually started to use speed holster just so that I could switch weapons much faster but now I guess I have to go back to energy siphon because playing harrow without energy is absolutely terrible, or any frame at that. Way to go to make people use more variety. -w-

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

skill spam was real before zenurik, and it will most probably (and sadly imo) still be after its removal.

fuzz=hysterical, imo.

if anything this will hopefully revitalize discussion about the underlying broken energy economy and it repercussions on overall game balance... though my guess is it won't.

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

skill spam was real before zenurik, and it will most probably (and sadly imo) still be after its removal.

You act like this is a bad thing. Don't.

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

if anything this will hopefully revitalize discussion about the underlying broken energy economy and it repercussions on overall game balance... though my guess is it won't.

What do you understand under "balance" for this game? I hope you're not coating exclusively the word nerf behind the word balance. Because that's what most anti-energy people intend.

This oh so bad "skill spam" has been used and enjoyed for years by the community which can especially be told by the rapid increase of feedback and demand for an energy overflow replacement. Zenurik Energy Overflow just made it more enjoyable since it made people not having to rely on EVs or carriers. A good example on how your perception of nerfing skill spam works is by simply starting a new account. Which is extremely limiting gameplay. Almost unable to cast abilities. Only the best abilities will be cast. I can say as much that, people DON'T actually want that. We got other shooter games which do the job that you prefer. No need to turn warframe into "just another shooter".

Edited September 17, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

6 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I hope you're not coating exclusively the word nerf behind the word balance. Because that's what most ant-energy people intend.

Nah, i'm not sugar coating anything, i'm all for nerfing energy pads (limit) and energy vampire, for example.

7 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

This oh so bad "skill spam" has been used and enjoyed for years by the community which can especially be told by the rapid increase of feedback and demand for an energy overflow replacement. Zenurik Energy Overflow just made it more enjoyable since it made people not having to rely on EVs or carriers. A good example on how your perception of nerfing skill spam works is by simply starting a new account. Which is extremely limiting gameplay. Almost unable to cast abilities. Only the best abilities will be cast. I can say as much that, people DON'T actually want that. We got other shooter games which do the job that you prefer. No need to turn warframe into "just another shooter".

First of all i should probably differentiate between "spam" and "spam". I don't think it's much of a problem if we can more or less always rely on BnB skills, which i think should mainly be our "1s" and maybe "2s"... but then there is spam of "ults" and OP "3s" like Bastille which trivialize the game from a 3rd person action game to hardly more than a clicker game, as i see it. Yes, some people seem to enjoy that and maybe it is the majority as you seem to claim, which i don't count myself in then. On the other hand there are alot of skill based and even notoriously hard games out there which seem to be quite popular, so who knows really.

Why does an "ult" cost 100 energy and a lesser skill 25? My best guess is the Devs originally had skill cost as a balancing factor in mind, that however is completely moot if anything is spammable alike. I refuse to believe Warframe would become "just another shooter" if we actually had to consider at certain times wether to use a skill now or rather later, if we had to be somwhat strategic about it, and honestly i feel it's a popular thought terminating cliché. Like i said, i think that's what was intended originally anyway or the game could have just designed with no energy restrictions whatsoever from the get go. But power creep sells and we slowly but surely crept into a corner where endgame means constantly hammering on your 3/4 or be one shot in seconds, which some people don't feel to be particularly engaging, like me.

To not lose difficulty friction while farming altogether (or rather to make the game harder to be played by bots) the devs then added band aid countermeasures like nullyfing enemies and we all know how popular those are (personally i don't mind them btw, only those with invisible, undodgeable auras).

Of course the energy economy is not the only problem but one of the main, underlying ones imo.

Yes, feeling powerful might be enjoyable but that's all relative. In Alien Isolation you feel powerful if you find some fuel for your flame thrower so you can scare away an Alien once, maybe twice. Of course Warframe is not that kind of game but still my point is there's a grey area between no skill whatsoever and the overabundance of energy, to which we got used to, unfortunately, so it's only natural there's gonna be an outcry now that people get their toys taken away from them. I think if the devs wouldn't have been carried so far away while implementing all those energy restoration / preservation measures in the first place we wouldn't be in this dilemma now, but what's done is done.

 

 

[LuckyCharm]

Would it be so bad to have say.. 1 energy per second regen naturally without auras, so you can still get a little more energy over time when you add energy siphon?

Even with full efficiency mods most skills cannot be kept functional with just a single energy siphon, unless you also run extended duration to counteract the -duration from fleeting expertise which more often than not gimps your range if you do that with narrowminded. This rather hurts since it cascades into needing to add a range mod in most cases which takes another slot. A lot of mod space just for keeping energy up for say.. hall of mirrors or eclipse. Fairly certain my titania won't be playable until i work out a new rage/razorwing build too which is going to hurt her already dodgy skillset. 

 

Either that or make energy orb drops more common, which i wouldnt say no to since itd let the other ways of getting energy be fixed

[PsychicWarlock]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:49 AM, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

It's no loss once the Focus change occurs.

I have the Rage mod on my Chroma, that provides enough energy and I have a fully ranked Blind Rage on my build. I can post an image of it later when I can get on my computer.

sorry to say this but it's a terrible buld for chroma.

https://goo.gl/q4tKNH

mine is 2x tankier than the one you showed and even less forma.

Edited September 17, 2017 by PsychicWarlock

[Spkr4theDead]

On 9/15/2017 at 3:19 PM, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

Energy siphon is a poor excuse to generate sufficient energy and honestly just ALWAYS left me wanting something more effective. I also couldn't stand using blind rage due to the poor energy economy. Zenuriks energy regen was the only thing that encouraged and allowed me to have fun with high energy cost builds... Orbs are just RNG.. RIP my blind rage chroma.. You were barely able to recast powers after your duration ran out. Now you cannot XD well everyone. Hope our focus trees so t get the nerf too hard.

This is why we have EV Trinity builds.

[Miburec]

11 minutes ago, Spkr4theDead said:

This is why we have EV Trinity builds.

Which gets you nowhere if you don't want to play as an EV-Trin solo - or if no EV-Trin is in your PuG...

[o.0-]

37 minutes ago, PsychicWarlock said:

sorry to say this but it's a terrible buld for chroma.

https://goo.gl/q4tKNH

mine is 2x tankier than the one you showed and even less forma.

[Xzorn]

52 minutes ago, PsychicWarlock said:

sorry to say this but it's a terrible buld for chroma.

https://goo.gl/q4tKNH

mine is 2x tankier than the one you showed and even less forma.

 

The Chroma build in the link: has 58,573 eHP

The Chroma build in the pick (If it were proper Cold) has 105,427 eHP

They both have roughly 25% of those values against Puncture damage which is why Chroma isn't that tanky regardless what you do.

Just one of many flaws that carries over into other balance issues much like this spam energy management debate.

I would dare say the first culprit was enemy damage scaling which started a chain of work arounds leading us to this point.

[Pizzarugi]

On 9/15/2017 at 1:23 PM, Jareson said:

Zenurik bandaided the energy economy all these years and because of that, we have gotten used to just having energy. If that passive is removed, then its actually better for the game because we can finally have it addressed as an actual fix, and not a bandaid.

Yeah, no. So long as Trinity, Harrow and energy pizzas exist, DE will never address the problem. This is just going to severely impact squishy caster frames.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Pizzarugi