The new Zenurik... Just no

[Danjal777]

I'm sad too guys, but we will make together, I swear.

[Jukantos]

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

this so much...

but hey, they "don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game" ...

Because getting enough power to use one ability once every 7 seconds is way more broken than full energy restores and AFK farming comps with trinity or pizzas... it's really mindboggling how much they are willing to ignore their own literal argument to eradicate a fun semi-casting playstyle while leaving all the abuse cases completely untouched.

But hey, they removed Relics 1.0 because they did not want an entire type of mission to be about searching for a single spot minigame unconnected to the rest of the mission (and they totally didnt reintroduce exactly that same gameplay in the form of kuva siphons, but whatever, the hypocrisy is too far off the charts to take their nerf justifications seriously anymore anyway)

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

4 hours ago, Mudfam said:

This game's strengths are its fast pace and mobility. I play it because leaping around like spiderman had way too many stimulants and using powers is fun. That's what keeps me playing after years. Without that, eeeehh..?

So now with Focus 2.0 in place of energy overflow we get a deployable bubble, because Ninjas... Sit in bubbles!

This is just such an incredibly awful idea. It is both redundant and detrimental to gameplay. Scrap it immediately.

By your logic, Frost's Snow Globe should be scrapped!

[Jukantos]

Just now, Danjal777 said:

I'm sad too guys, but we will make together, I swear.

The sad part is i can exactly see where this is going. H P Mineral Farming LF EV

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Going with this logic trinity itself is a crutch

No, Trinity is a cost. You are abandoning a damage/crowd control frame in favour of one that specifically builds for energy restore.

So yeah, Zenurik let people who don't want to pay the cost of energy pizzas and don't want the cost of having to run with a friend that has a frame modded specifically for energy restore, build into something that they normally couldn't have built for without paying that cost.

You've just made the point I was making. It enables players to not pay the cost of that much energy.

The funny thing is that all frames actually work on base efficiency. Modding for extra efficiency just enables more casting than the base balance. I use base efficiency on a lot of frames, and even have a 75% Efficiency Saryn and Nidus, due to their own base energy regen with Lash and Virulence.

[Jukantos]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

No, Trinity is a cost. You are abandoning a damage/crowd control frame in favour of one that specifically builds for energy restore.

So yeah, Zenurik let people who don't want to pay the cost of energy pizzas and don't want the cost of having to run with a friend that has a frame modded specifically for energy restore, build into something that they normally couldn't have built for without paying that cost.

You've just made the point I was making. It enables players to not pay the cost of that much energy.

The funny thing is that all frames actually work on base efficiency. Modding for extra efficiency just enables more casting than the base balance. I use base efficiency on a lot of frames, and even have a 75% Efficiency Saryn and Nidus, due to their own base energy regen with Lash and Virulence.

Maybe that's because the "cost" you are referring to is paid in literal gameplay enjoyment. It quite literally can not be paid for with cash, so... there is no reason whatsoever to gun for it the way DE does. And to give Zenurik players a passive that could be considered a straight mathematical downgrade from Naramons 50% melee damage is so cynical i cant help the feeling it was included to spite people because they had been shouting at DE not to remove the energy regeneration.

And hell yea im pissed about it. I've spent the equivalent of 100$ on Zenurik Lenses and completing a tree i dont bloody need and now that tree is going to be so worthless i might as well get the lenses deleted instead of refunded. How could i possibly NOT be outraged at that?

[Fallen_Echo]

9 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

No, Trinity is a cost. You are abandoning a damage/crowd control frame in favour of one that specifically builds for energy restore.

So yeah, Zenurik let people who don't want to pay the cost of energy pizzas and don't want the cost of having to run with a friend that has a frame modded specifically for energy restore, build into something that they normally couldn't have built for without paying that cost.

You've just made the point I was making. It enables players to not pay the cost of that much energy.

The funny thing is that all frames actually work on base efficiency. Modding for extra efficiency just enables more casting than the base balance. I use base efficiency on a lot of frames, and even have a 75% Efficiency Saryn and Nidus, due to their own base energy regen with Lash and Virulence.

Nova, frost/vauban and inaros/nidus and you are set. Theres no need for more, trinities cost is to the player who choosed her. Apart from raids we never really needed trinity but with this change she will be the most popular pizza replacement and after her there will be harrow who is simply inferior to her.

Someone gonna sacrafice his enjoyment to make other happy.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 minutes ago, Jukantos said:

And hell yea im pissed about it. I've spent the equivalent of 100$ on Zenurik Lenses and completing a tree i dont bloody need and now that tree is going to be so worthless i might as well get the lenses deleted instead of refunded. How could i possibly NOT be outraged at that?

Well, sure, if your experience of the game has made you think it was a good idea to spend that much on an in-game system, then you have my sympathies.

But your money doesn't entitle you in any way, you didn't have to buy any of that, although they'll certainly thank you for helping keep the game running.

I will say it again, though, we don't know the full extent of this rework. The new system may require a deployable bubble, sure, but that deployable may restore 10 energy per second and be stack-able with other players to restore up to 40. We don't know, we just know the basic mechanic.

Your investment in Zenurik and lenses to this day may be rewarded in the fact that you can max out that tree completely, and if you can't, then you'll be able to craft the new, even better, kind of Lenses that only appear in Cetus and will let you farm Focus for the rest of the tree in record time. You may find that your investments return even more than they do now.

Please, for your sake and ours, calm down and look at it before you judge it.

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Someone gonna sacrafice his enjoyment to make other happy.

Or, someone is going to play their favourite frame. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean that others are the same.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Thaylien

[Jukantos]

4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Well, sure, if your experience of the game has made you think it was a good idea to spend that much on an in-game system, then you have my sympathies.

But your money doesn't entitle you in any way, you didn't have to buy any of that, although they'll certainly thank you for helping keep the game running.

I will say it again, though, we don't know the full extent of this rework. The new system may require a deployable bubble, sure, but that deployable may restore 10 energy per second and be stack-able with other players to restore up to 40. We don't know, we just know the basic mechanic.

Your investment in Zenurik and lenses to this day may be rewarded in the fact that you can max out that tree completely, and if you can't, then you'll be able to craft the new, even better, kind of Lenses that only appear in Cetus and will let you farm Focus for the rest of the tree in record time. You may find that your investments return even more than they do now.

Please, for your sake and ours, calm down and look at it before you judge it.

The problem once more is the communication. First we're told nothing except to expect to lose what we paid and grinded for, then eventually the big reveal shows our school potentially becoming one of the worst out of all picks and now, with very limited information available to us, we get outright silence. It feels like another one of these scenarios is coming up where a giant nerf is just going to be subjected to silence on all channels to try and smother the outrage. And the worst thing is, this time there was really absolutely no need for it. As said before in this thread repeatedly, Zenurik was BY FAR not the outlier when it comes to energy gains.

It feels like we're "being handled" and that's a feeling that i just cant freakin stand, because i've experienced the end results of similar situations before and they were never good for the game (take a look at player numbers after relics 2.0, literally dipping by about 15% on steam)

Sure, my protest is most certainly being ignored and based on incomplete information but you have to question the fact the community is just being told up front that a playstyle which is in no way the critical playstyle to abusive optimized farming is going to be destroyed with zero reasoning given other than "it was locked behind a single focus school". You couldve fixed that with the cross school unlocks, easily.

I mean bloody hell there was even a post about how passive energy regen is being considered a "necessity" by many players and how it might be necessary to be able to unlock it regardless of focus tree choice, There was a DELIBERATE post about it and the next thing we get is "oh btw you have to stand in place in bubbles now and there is no more consistent energy regen whatsoever but as a compensation you get channeling efficiency". Meaning lategame hitscan enemies get to mow you down for absolutely free.

That narrative cut from "we understand you feel you really need it" to "we're taking it away anyway without replacement and all the grind you invested into it will now give you a meaningless stat 99% of the community dont even use" feels like a taunt. THATS why im so pissed about it. It's as if they're acknowledging how integral this is to a decently sized group of players and still they're going to take it away without fixing or even bandaiding any of the farming setups that could be considered problematic. Hell, quite the opposite, they even announce they will add a passive that forces static stationary gameplay even more. It's so contradicting and frustrating. I really hold out my hopes that it will be redesigned before its full release, but if relics 2.0 and the constant ducat value nerfs ever since have taught me anything it's not to rely on DE saying my stuff will keep its value when they send conflicting messages like this.

I play most of my time on Antimatter Absorb Nova, i adore the builds fluidity between control, damage and mobility and my playstyle is going to be deliberately removed without any of the more extreme cases being touched whatsoever, because it's wrong to have it behind a single focus tree (so removing it with no replacement is definitely the solution)

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I stand by New Zenurik.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

5 hours ago, Mudfam said:

because everything else is 

>literally the only focus change people complain about.

Edited October 2, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Mousarchy]

all im getting from this is "I cant play the game if i dont have infinate energy"
infinite energy isnt the way to go (and honestly how come in THIS case mobility is the reasoning but some other arguements i get people fight back with "but I dont wanna leave the frost bubble or ill die in one shot)

I mean if you REALLY wanted energy regen you would use Energy siphon but no one uses that  because its "not broken OP" which the common meta-slaves are convinced is the ONLY way to play.

[Serenna187]

13 minutes ago, Ordosan said:

I mean if you REALLY wanted energy regen you would use Energy siphon but no one uses that

0.6 energy/sec from a single siphon gets you nowhere and the chances to find multiple siphon users in a public match is..slim to say the least

Point is,the energy system we got is bad with its rng drops,either you swim in energy orbs,or you see none at all.Trinities and Harrows are scarce to see and not all of them have the brains to utilize their energy restoring skills in a meaningfull amount,or outright build them with poor range so noone benefits from it in case of Harrow.

Energy Overflow or at least a reliable and meaningfull source of energy that doesn't force you to sit down and wait  is essential for fluent gameplay

To propose a solution that caters everyone: Keep Energy Overflow as is and make it available to all focus schools OR add a meaningfull base regen for any frame free of the focus system,optionally buffable through zenurik

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Jukantos said:

It's as if they're acknowledging how integral this is to a decently sized group of players and still they're going to take it away without fixing or even bandaiding any of the farming setups that could be considered problematic.

2 minutes ago, Serenna187 said:

Energy Overflow or at least a reliable and meaningfull source of energy that doesn't force you to sit down and wait  is essential for fluent gameplay

I think this is the core to it that many are not acknowledging in more than passing.

Before I go further, for Jukantos I do understand your point of view. I do get that the communication of goals can seem to be shifting more than the tides in some ways, but that's not what they've said, it's a way to view what they've said, but the interpretation could be wrong. Also, the 'big reveal' you're talking about isn't one. All they've said for certain is that the method is changing, what the stats are and whether it's going to be better or worse or exactly the same barring the mechanical difference is still subject to change.

The quote from both of you there, though, is what I want to look at.

Because here's what DE have definitely said with this change: They are acknowledging how much certain players rely on it. They are also pointing out that it is not integral, it is not essential, and it is definitely not what they believe is needed in this game.

Millions of players don't use Zenurik, but the ones that do use it almost exclusively for Energy Overflow and that's it. That implies there's a problem in the way the power of the school is distributed.

By distributing that potential energy regen into different nodes across the school, DE can ensure that the potential remains the same, just not the single-point-of-power that there was before.

Now... I'm not presuming to say that is or isn't what they're actually doing, but the potential that DE have actually considered this is definitely there.

[Mudfam]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

>literally the only focus change people complain about.

Yeah, there's been whole a lot of very well reasoned arguments for why removing EO doesn't make sense (while none of the actual non imaginary problems are being looked at). I wonder why?

There's the odd case of "(by far the slowest form of) energy regen OP! Plz Nerf!" I have literally not heard a single compelling argument for EO being bad, not one single example of how it's supposedly overpowered. Really? how? What?

The one thing I've heard is how Chroma can forego modding for efficiency, or in this thread "the cost of costs of build choice cost that costs something that is not a cost..." whatever the hell that semi-philosiphical complete nonsense is supposed to mean.

So, back to planet Earth, if you're so supportive of this change, can you really not come up with an actual argument? No? Not one? Not one tiny little actual reason?

I've really tried to understand why anyone would have something against EO, and the only possible reason I can imagine is that they play some facetank-everything-I'm-so-lolz-OP-I-don'-care-about-anything-including-energy build and they want everything else to be even more underpowered by comparison out of pure spite. I mean * these noobs who want to actively use abilities and can't take a good beating, look at how gloriously OP I am!

If there's even one valid reason why EO should be removed, one comparatively overpowered tactic it allows, then please do explain, because I honestly cannot think of it, and I'm thoroughly suspicious of how not one example has been provided to date.

[Serenna187]

So far,their attempt at emulating EO is creating a bubble on void dashing that forces you to park your sorry self in it,free to be shot while stationary to get anything from it.This kills the fluentness of gameplay obviously and makes me wonder if the devs play their own game outside of play test conditions

[Sanxxieh]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I had my fears that this rework will be the same quality as hydroids rework or the limbo afterwork but seriously?

Wait wait wait...... how can you even compare Hydroid's revisit to Limbo's revamp? Hydroid's rework was close to none while Limbo's revamp was simply great...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the topic though...

Besides how not intuitive the Focus 2.0 seems to be (Naramon going berserk while Unairu and Madurai going stealthy...)  as for now all we can say is "seems to be".... it is not yet in game, we have no way to judge whether the changes are good or bad, whether they'll make us cry or jump of happiness. Now we must wait, then we'll see, and then we judge.

[Nirrel]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Second, and I just want to be clear that, yes, I use Zenurik myself... but that doesn't mean Energy Overflow is good.

Why? Because it doesn't cost you anything once you have it.

Well, why should it? It shouldn't have even cost as much as it did. Energy is essential to a gameplay that have powers to rely on, so for a balanced energy economy you should have a reliable source for it to begin with. EO was exactly that. You can balance something only if you know how much do you have of it, and what we had before EO was Trinity that could keep you up with energy infitely or pizzas that gave you a lot of it even too much or RNG energy balls wich who knows when and how much of them will drop. You cannot balance a whole system around something like that. It's just not possible somebody will always have too much of it and somebody wont have any. It was somehow managable (badly enough) at the beginning with a handful of frames running around but at some point as the game grow it become very clear that the system wasn't working and they introduced EO. Funnily enough the crutch was the only balanced energy gain mechanic they ever put in the game.

 

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Or, someone is going to play their favourite frame. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean that others are the same.

I played Trinity very much and I love her, until I can play my frame as I see it fit. While I love play support frames most of the time in my opinion they have to support in need and not to be rely on completely.

1 hour ago, Ordosan said:

all im getting from this is "I cant play the game if i dont have infinate energy"
infinite energy isnt the way to go (and honestly how come in THIS case mobility is the reasoning but some other arguements i get people fight back with "but I dont wanna leave the frost bubble or ill die in one shot)

I mean if you REALLY wanted energy regen you would use Energy siphon but no one uses that  because its "not broken OP" which the common meta-slaves are convinced is the ONLY way to play.

Then you don't get it at all. Nobody said they can't play the game without infinite energy. You already do have infinite energy in the game and they are called Trinity and energy restores.

52 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

They are acknowledging how much certain players rely on it. They are also pointing out that it is not integral, it is not essential, and it is definitely not what they believe is needed in this game.

Millions of players don't use Zenurik, but the ones that do use it almost exclusively for Energy Overflow and that's it. That implies there's a problem in the way the power of the school is distributed.

By distributing that potential energy regen into different nodes across the school, DE can ensure that the potential remains the same, just not the single-point-of-power that there was before.

Now... I'm not presuming to say that is or isn't what they're actually doing, but the potential that DE have actually considered this is definitely there.

Whatever the developers believe is one thing, the fact is that energy economy in the game was always a mess. I do respect the developers because they made a game that I played way more than any other game in my life, but undeniably they made many mistakes during the road and I'm sure they believed when they came up with certain mechanics that they were good and only later relized that they were wrong.

When ppl play just certain abilities of a school it doesn't necessarily mean that they are OP. It means that the rest of it mostly garbage and it's not worth using at all. Perhaps they should have come up with something better and ppl would have willingly use it. Or not....considering the "cost" (cooldown) most missions would have finished before even you could activate them...

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Nirrel

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 hour ago, Serenna187 said:

Energy Overflow or at least a reliable and meaningfull source of energy that doesn't force you to sit down and wait  is essential for fluent gameplay

I never normally say this, but that is a downright lie.I have never used Energy Overflow, not once since I've been playing the game. Why don't you try not using your really bad Blind Rage + Transient Fortitude build. It only works for Nidus, and that's only after Rage.

[Foxbat40]

Yes it is a big change. I hope they have worked out the rest of the energy economy. 

Saryn, Nova, Mag, Vauban and many others are squishy energy hungry frames. Sitting still is a sure fire way to die for them. 

Stationary totems are the bane of any MMO players existance. They force static game play when all the player wants to do is have fun.

[Nirrel]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I never normally say this, but that is a downright lie.I have never used Energy Overflow, not once since I've been playing the game. Why don't you try not using your really bad Blind Rage + Transient Fortitude build. It only works for Nidus, and that's only after Rage.

LOL. What is the point to have mods and be able to run different builds if we all have to make the same build on a frame just because it's not sustaible/survivable on high lvl  otherwise. And why do you think that your way to build a frame should be the norm for everyone.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 minute ago, Nirrel said:

LOL. What is the point to have mods and be able to run different builds if we all have to make the same build on a frame just because it's not sustaible/survivable on high lvl  otherwise. And why do you think that your way to build a frame should be the norm for everyone.

There are actually many builds to keep a good amount of energy while also being about to deal a good amount of damage. Did I say my build? No, I didn't. Quit your complaining and use this thing called Streamline.

[Nirrel]

Just now, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

There are actually many builds to keep a good amount of energy while also being about to deal a good amount of damage. Did I say my build? No, I didn't. Quit your complaining and use this thing called Streamline.

Being arrogant and handing out random advise while completely ignoring the problem what is the energy economy in this game and how the new focus system would change the fluidity of the gameplay doesn't help anybody. Pls point out where did I "complain" or Serenna187 ever mentioned blind rage build.

This thread came up with some very good point what can go very wrong with what they are doing to zenurik in general and why objectivly passive energy regen would be a good idea in the long run. Nobody cares what kind of mods we should or shouldn't use in your opinion though...

 

 

[Emulad0or]

It's like people don't know that Streamline and Fleeting Expertise exist, or they believe Blind Rage is a must in every build...

You guys should be happy we are getting some new way to get energy instead of just removing Energy Overload it and be done with it.

Energy Overload was never necessary. We were fine before it, we will be fine after it's gone

[Jukantos]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Millions of players don't use Zenurik, but the ones that do use it almost exclusively for Energy Overflow and that's it. That implies there's a problem in the way the power of the school is distributed.

 

By distributing that potential energy regen into different nodes across the school, DE can ensure that the potential remains the same, just not the single-point-of-power that there was before.

Now... I'm not presuming to say that is or isn't what they're actually doing, but the potential that DE have actually considered this is definitely there.

Lets immediatly put aside the whole "People only use focus for the passives" topic, as that is CLEARLY caused by the ridicolous 45 second cooldown penalty for every single node you activate, potentially causing a SIX MINUTE cooldown if you were to activate every node in zenurik. That's the sole reason people dont use active nodes in ANY focus tree - the punishment has been insane and outweighed the benefits ever since release. Activating active nodes simply was never a viable option, period. Which does seem to get adressed with Focus 2.0 as they have announced the passives can now be activated with normal operator mode right off the bat, so hurray for that. Makes the actual focus outburst into more of a last resort ultimate and gives it the feeling it deserves.

As for the second half of that quote, that right there is the essential problem. Considering the time-to-die against high level enemies for most non-tank frames, i simply can not afford to switch to my operator, do a dash and transform back, just to create a STATIONARY bubble to regenerate energy in. The average lvl 60 grineer will a) knock my operator butt back into my frame in under 5 seconds and b) by the time im back in my frame it has taken 40-50% health damage by standing still even if that's just for ~3-5 seconds. THERE'S the problem. Not only does it force me to constantly use operator mode for my energy regen, it additionally just straightup gets me killed because my frame is left in a vulnerable state, as a stationary shooting range target.

Also from what they've shown they are NOT spreading Energy regen into different nodes, they are removing it alltogether. If their cross-school nodes dont include energy regen and their primary reason given for it to be changed/removed is that it should not be locked behind a single school why on EARTH would they lock it behind a DIFFERENT node unique to the Zenurik school which just adds the requirement to spam operator dashes and stand still as a nice target to get that regeneration? That's a hoop i cant imagine anyone wanting to jump through.

Seriously, i just cant understand their angle of attack. They are cracking down on a casual playstyle that people are indeed relying on which IS FUN PLAYING WITH while completely ignoring stationary cheese strats like pizzas or EV Berehynia that are quite possibly doing financial damage to them (who buys boosters if you can just go to bere for 20 minutes) AND isnt fun to play at all (or do you know anyone who enjoys sitting on the bere pillar for half an hour?)

It's not like running around regular missions with Zenurik Regen to fool around in low-paying missions is the critical progression skip they have to adress. And if they wanted to make Energy Regen available to everybody it shouldve most definitely simply been a cross school focus node. Instead they are outright removing it, and the only thing they even mention as an avenue for energy involves sitting around stationary. As if we couldnt do that already. It's as if they WANT to see gameplay devolve into people sitting around spamming abilities next to a trinity battery. Why else would they gut the currently only viable tool we have to not rely on EV or pizzas?

And yea, i can totally see this change forcing people with their aforementioned sledgehammer to use operator mode. But i can also see that leading to constant spoiler barrages for new players who get to see a ton of people just popping out of their frames constantly to get access to energy regen. Like, ERRRR, i can find like THREE different ways why this is making things worse rather than better in under 5 minutes of thinking, about the logical consequences, so why are they still going to pursue this? They shouldve just moved the energy regen to a cross school node and hell, if you thought people are relying on it too much, maybe halved it. But then again, why the heck DO we need to rely on pickups for our VOID POWERED WARFRAMES in the first place? It's unexplained and almost comically nonsensical lorewise (why would the corpus or grineer even HAVE void energy on them? they dont have void tech!) and mechanically frustrating, as having your warframe "disabled" by lack of energy simple means you become a brick consisting of mainly armor, health, shield and movement speed stats.

I did an experiment: I went and played on a Frost using ONLY base stat mods. Not a single mod which had the word "Power" in it. Vitality, Redirection, Primed Vigor, Steel Fiber, Armored Agility, Rush, Speed Drift, Endurance Drift, Fortitude and Lightning Dash. And guess what? I became an invulnerable murder machine which couldnt ever cast abilities for jack S#&$ but didnt need to either. It felt wrong though, because at least for me personally, thats just not what Warframe should be about. And neither should it force us this heavily to constantly pop into a more vulnerable form, leaving our frame as a literal shooting / punching target while we're dancing around outside to get access to energy.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Jukantos