Khora exalted whip, please don't!

[Mudfam]

First off hats off for the aesthetic of this warframe. I'm very hard to please, I dislike the design of many warframes, particularly newer ones, so much that I'll never play them. This looks really great, I'm impressed.

 

Exalted weapons however are just bad. Rolling a frame and weapon into one is a terrible idea, it basically just removes our choice of playstyle and weapon, which are immesurably important. Exalted melee weapons are also vastly inferior to regular melee, because they don't have access to the mods which makes melee weapons good in the first place, and you know, rivens.

I'm further concerned because the frame also has an ability which is a "summon", which also lacks interactivity. This leaves us with just 2 abilities that potentially support the mix of powers, gunplay and melee which makes Warframe gameplay so good. Chances are it won't be enough.

I beg you to reconsider. Give us abilities that have an active role in the gameplay, and don't define how we play. Exalted weapons in particular are extremely restrictive and tend to hugely simplify the otherwise diverse, synergy and option rich Warframe gameplay that makes it special.

 

[GinKenshin]

You can always not use it? If your problem is that it takes a spot from her ability pool then it’s understandable, but you’re kinda talking like it’s a must to use the exalted weps 

 

I’d prefer if the whip or any exalted wep had a cool effect that distinguishes it from other melees/weps, like ivara with her bow (aka: better cernos p), excal with his energy wave sword....etc. basically something that makes up for it not being able to use some melee mods 

 

Edit: as for her special kavat, I’m more concerned about the AI really

Edited November 4, 2017 by GinKenshin

[CTanGod]

If it makes you feel any better Excalibur only need Radial Blind to be relevant, hell, you can go vs lvl 200 enemies and not need Exalted Blade so long as your melee weapon is decent. The concept of Exalted Weapons is kind of fun but only if the frame doesn't revolve around the Exalted weapon.

[Emolition]

For me this frame sound like something I wanna try having 2 kavats and a whip (if they make it cool animation wise) sound really fun. The biggest thing for me might be that as gara was a "tank" this one might not have the survivability I want from frames.

[Mudfam]

Ivara is a bit of an exception with a some nice utility outside of her exalted weapon (even though I don't like her), but in general warframes with exalted weapons become 1 trick ponys if you ignore their exalted weapons, which usually carry a lot of more of the Warframe's features than just a weapon, which acts like a switch completely overriding normal gameplay. As I mentioned In this case I'm also concerned because one of her selling points is some kind of summon, something that is very passive, leaving very little room for relevant active gameplay options.

[Rekkou]

I think they probably ran out of idea. Kavat and Exalted Whip, those are basically 2 separate mechanics that are now integrated as abilities. Her 1 probably will be a quick whip lash, while her other ability is probably buff for the kavat. So If my guess is correct, Khora will be a warframe with 2 melees and 2 companions but no real ability

[LSG501]

To be fair when I saw the model I thought it kind of had a mirage/trinity vibe and after they started saying about whips and kavats I was like circus ringmaster then.  I know they said all this other stuff was the inspiration but honestly what they described really fits in with a 'circus' theme to me. 

As to the exalted whip, lets see how it works first before going on about it's bad etc. 

[Mudfam]

1 minute ago, Rekkou said:

I think they probably ran out of idea. Kavat and Exalted Whip, those are basically 2 separate mechanics that are now integrated as abilities. Her 1 probably will be a quick whip lash, while her other ability is probably buff for the kavat. So If my guess is correct, Khora will be a warframe with 2 melees and 2 companions but no real ability

Yeah, exactly what I fear. She sounds extremely boring to play. Such a shame. There are very few warframes that I like both the look and the gameplay of, this excels at the first but sounds like the most boring frame to play yet.

[Fishyflakes]

This is all just speculation of course.

[Tsardova]

so.... can we play that gachi video now or? 

[Mudfam]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

As to the exalted whip, lets see how it works first before going on about it's bad etc. 

 

Just now, Fishyflakes said:

This is all just speculation of course.

 

Hardly. Unless DE suddenly completely changes how all exalted weapons work, then we know more than enough. They can't be modded properly, excluding the most interesting modding options, and also invalidating the weapon on its own. They don't allow you to choose use your weapon or use your weapons in concert. These are absolutely some of Warframe's most relevant and fundamental features, exalted weapons quite simply break them, reducing the game to something very simplistic and repetitive.

[BoomyGordo]

congrats on makeing speculation on how the frame will work, then judging from the speculation that the frame is "boring" and then proceeding to say that its not speculation its fact...

how about you flipping wait till we get more than concept art and a generalized idea of how the frame will work to judge? they can change designs and abilities wildly. slow your roll, cool your jets

[Mudfam]

2 minutes ago, ---Quill-Onkko--- said:

congrats on makeing speculation on how the frame will work, then judging from the speculation that the frame is "boring" and then proceeding to say that its not speculation its fact...

how about you flipping wait till we get more than concept art and a generalized idea of how the frame will work to judge? they can change designs and abilities wildly. slow your roll, cool your jets

There is nothing speculative in what I say about exalted weapons. These are factual things that I personally consider to be huge issues. I said the frame sounds boring to me, I clearly presented this as a subjective statement.

I say this now precisely because I think this kind of feedback should be given as early as possible. If time is invested in developing this exalted weapon they're very unlikely to make a U turn, and if they did it would be wasted development time.

I'm perfectly cool and I'm trying to give well thought out feedback when I think it might be most useful.

[Nirrel]

4 minutes ago, ---Quill-Onkko--- said:

congrats on makeing speculation on how the frame will work, then judging from the speculation that the frame is "boring" and then proceeding to say that its not speculation its fact...

how about you flipping wait till we get more than concept art and a generalized idea of how the frame will work to judge? they can change designs and abilities wildly. slow your roll, cool your jets

There isn't much of a speculation here. They said exalted whip and we already know how exalted weapons work in the game. what is the speculation part? I completely agree with the OP on exalted weapons.

The point is expressing feedback and concern about it before it gets definitive and it cannot be changed anymore. Or do you think once the frame is ready they will be able just scracht it because that is so easy now, isn't it?

So how about expressing some constructive idea instead of a random answer that doesn't benefit anybody?

[Ruby_Rose_]

21 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Hardly. Unless DE suddenly completely changes how all exalted weapons work, then we know more than enough. They can't be modded properly, excluding the most interesting modding options, and also invalidating the weapon on its own. They don't allow you to choose use your weapon or use your weapons in concert. These are absolutely some of Warframe's most relevant and fundamental features, exalted weapons quite simply break them, reducing the game to something very simplistic and repetitive.

Honestly, I think Exalted weapons are what melee weapons SHOULD BE. Mods like Maiming Strike and Blood Rush have become all but mandatory on 95% of weapons. I'm actually glad they're not available to Exalted Weapons.

Could you even imagine how stupid Valkyr or Excal would be with perma red crits on their weapons?

We honestly need more diversity for mods, not drastic changes to melee weapon or even exalted weapons. Though, those would be nice still.

 

I will agree with some of the others, you're passing judgement on a frame that only has art and a couple ability concepts. For all we know, those abilities could get scrapped before release. 

Also, even though not everyone likes the summoner playstyle, if that end up being how she plays, so be it. If you don't like her enough to play her more, then just don't.

[FelisImpurrator]

You know what, I have my own little "solution" to exalted weapons not taking mods like Blood Rush.

I put them on anyway and ignore the fact that they don't work on the ability.

They always start with higher base damage and special features compared to ordinary melee, so quite honestly, losing one slot for the sake of not having a gimped "mod stick" outside of the Exalted weapon doesn't remotely matter up to sortie 3. They still kill whatever I need them to kill, and then I turn them off because I'm not using them 24/7 like the old Exalted Blade Excals.

The one thing I want the whip to not have is absurd slide attack damage, so people can't spin to win Atterax it. Only thing I care for.

[Azamagon]

I agreed with the OP, to most extents.

On one hand: Exalted Weapons are pretty much just a way to turn a weapon into an ability, while also (generally) making your real equivalent weapon into a statstick. The latter part (weapon becomes a statstick) is the most annoying part to me.

On the other hand: The Exalted Weapons sometimes really feel like they are part of the Warframe, on someone like Valkyr most notably. Maybe not so much on others, but they DO have some merit. Some of them don't feel enough like they are abilities though (Wukong's Primal Fury is really lacking a lot, for example).

I can see two ways out of this:
1) Acknowledge the existance of Exalted Weapons as they are, but give them a seperate modding section (as if they were a fourth weapon), so that they don't reduce our REAL weapons into mere statsticks.
This is probably the easiest route, and probably the one that'd leave the most amount of people happy. Removing the "statstick" status on real weaponry for Exalted-wielding Warframes would finally allow them to play in a more diverse manner too (Say, Ivara could use a longrange fully optimized Sniper Rifle, along with her fully optimized mediumrange Artemis Bow).

2) Revamp ALL the Exalted Weapons so that they become abilities, rather than just a "summoned weapon". Hardly likely to happen, but if this is the route to go, what could be done here then? Examples:

Exalted Blade - Excalibur empowers his equipped melee weapon to shoot out exalted blades on each attack
Artemis Bow - Ivara empowers her ranged weapons into getting horizontal multishot, with some damagepenalty on each individual shot (to reduce the extreme power)
Primal Fury - Wukong empowers his melee weapon to grow in range, depending on his melee combo counter
Hysteria - Hysteria simply makes her tankier, while also increasing her damage based on how much damage she has suffered, but she can use any weapon she wants. Valkyr's claws instead maybe becomes a real weapon (which anyone can equip?), more akin to other "signature" weapons (like Atlas' Tekko, Mirage's Akzani etc).

Etc.

Eh. It feels like the 1st option is still the better way to go, considering how things are at the moment.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Azamagon
Spelling

[Nirrel]

12 minutes ago, Ruby_Rose_ said:

Honestly, I think Exalted weapons are what melee weapons SHOULD BE. Mods like Maiming Strike and Blood Rush have become all but mandatory on 95% of weapons. I'm actually glad they're not available to Exalted Weapons.

Could you even imagine how stupid Valkyr or Excal would be with perma red crits on their weapons?

 

1 minute ago, FelisImpurrator said:

You know what, I have my own little "solution" to exalted weapons not taking mods like Blood Rush.

I put them on anyway and ignore the fact that they don't work on the ability.

They always start with higher base damage and special features compared to ordinary melee, so quite honestly, losing one slot for the sake of not having a gimped "mod stick" outside of the Exalted weapon doesn't remotely matter up to sortie 3. They still kill whatever I need them to kill, and then I turn them off because I'm not using them 24/7 like the old Exalted Blade Excals.

The one thing I want the whip to not have is absurd slide attack damage, so people can't spin to win Atterax it. Only thing I care for.

Are you aware that we are not talking about exalted blade but on exalted weapons in general....since when would make a difference blood rush on artemis bow?

[Mudfam]

Just now, Ruby_Rose_ said:

Honestly, I think Exalted weapons are what melee weapons SHOULD BE. Mods like Maiming Strike and Blood Rush have become all but mandatory on 95% of weapons. I'm actually glad they're not available to Exalted Weapons.

Could you even imagine how stupid Valkyr or Excal would be with perma red crits on their weapons?

I can agree with this, but this is the current state of melee and it's unlikely to change. My point is that on top of the other (much more important) issues I have with exalted weapons, they are also inferior and not generally worth using (even though Exalted blade bring some more unique mechanics to the table).

Also, while Maiming Strike and Blood Rush could be considered overpowered, particularly in some playstyles (not mine), they are hardly the only example of mods that will not work on exalted weapons. There are many modding options for melee that are simply disabled completely for exalted weapons.

I have to cripple my melee weapon and forego half the mods and most interesting and unique build choices, to also lock myself into one specific weapon, disable my other weapons and other important gameplay features.

 

6 minutes ago, Ruby_Rose_ said:

I will agree with some of the others, you're passing judgement on a frame that only has art and a couple ability concepts. For all we know, those abilities could get scrapped before release. 

Also, even though not everyone likes the summoner playstyle, if that end up being how she plays, so be it. If you don't like her enough to play her more, then just don't.

Passing judgement? I'm giving my feedback on a feedback forum. I'm not hopeful that these abilities will be scrapped regardless, but it's entirely irrelevant, I'm respoding to what we've been officialy told, not hypotheticals. I haven't known DE to make such major changes in direction after announcing something, community feedback being the only reason why this might occur, hence my feedback.

I know very little about the summoning feature, hence why I refrained from commenting on it much, but I can assume it is not a very active ability unless DE plans to introduce some dratically new gameplay features, which they didn't mention. However I know more than enough about how exalted weapons invariably (don't) work to express what I did.

[FelisImpurrator]

Just now, Nirrel said:

Are you aware that we are not talking about exalted blade but on exalted weapons in general....since when would make a difference blood rush on artemis bow?

Yes, I am. Don't be condescending. For one, OP specified exalted melee - maybe your reading comprehension is the one in question here. Also? There's zero issue with Artemis Bow "not being able to use" "essential mods". I use a bow with Ivara because it's thematic, and I build it like I would any other bow, and Artemis suffers not at all. If I wanted to use not a bow, well, I'd lose a spot for Hush, but so what? Artemis hits like a truck. Since when do you have to minmax exclusively for weapons that generally start with >200 base damage?

TL;DR: If you want to use your weapons in tandem with abilities, don't stay in exalted weapon 24/7, mod your weapons to not suck as weapons, ????, profit.

[LSG501]

51 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

 

 

Hardly. Unless DE suddenly completely changes how all exalted weapons work, then we know more than enough.

Well DE did say stuff about being able to change how the whip works, remember them saying about slash etc so they are technically changing how it's going to work.

And to be fair, considering how many people I see playing excal just using their exalted weapon there's probably as many, if not more, players that like exalted weapons as those that don't. 

[Mudfam]

5 minutes ago, FelisImpurrator said:

TL;DR: If you want to use your weapons in tandem with abilities, don't stay in exalted weapon 24/7, mod your weapons to not suck as weapons, ????, profit

This mostly works for Artemis Bow, or Peacemaker (yuck), but exalted melee is in a bad spot when it comes to modding. Excalibur's Exalted Blade is somewhat of an exception, because it introduces a more unique gameplay mechanic and becomes very powerful with the augment alone, however it still makes good regular melee builds out of the question. Mainly for me the gameplay being reduced to swish swish swish swish swish swish swish swish swish is a huge no.

Of course it's all subjective, I mean, some people like World on Fire... I personally strongly dislike all exalted weapons and how they replace all my chosen weapons in one go, while also locking me out of other gameplay features. Modding aside, I think exalted weapons are generally in direct conflict with warframe's most important gameplay features rather than complementing them.

[Nirrel]

29 minutes ago, FelisImpurrator said:

Yes, I am. Don't be condescending. For one, OP specified exalted melee - maybe your reading comprehension is the one in question here. Also? There's zero issue with Artemis Bow "not being able to use" "essential mods". I use a bow with Ivara because it's thematic, and I build it like I would any other bow, and Artemis suffers not at all. If I wanted to use not a bow, well, I'd lose a spot for Hush, but so what? Artemis hits like a truck. Since when do you have to minmax exclusively for weapons that generally start with >200 base damage?

TL;DR: If you want to use your weapons in tandem with abilities, don't stay in exalted weapon 24/7, mod your weapons to not suck as weapons, ????, profit.

I did not mean to be condescending, if it came through like that, I apologize. It's just I cannot stand when ppl will pick on one particular thing (like blood rush,wich is controversial in the community), ignoring all the rest. Why I do think that exalted weapons are still inferior even if the damage numbers are there, because they don't do anything more that our weapons cannot already do as it is even better, but you are using energy for it or they are just simple boring being locked in it for no special gain. So in my opinion it's a wasted power as it is implemented right now in most cases. Obviously there will be many who like them, but even exalted blade I didn't see used it much in game up until the augment came out for it. You are right I can just swich it on and off, but it's just not worth the hassle, so I choose not to use them at all.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Nirrel

[ShikiRen]

GTFO, please. Exalted weapons are great (in moderation). They are way, way, WAY better than quite a few other ability types (like deployables...F*** deployables). A friend of mine loves whip weapons (not just in WF) and he is hyped like nothing else. Go play another frame if you do not like exalted weapons. Also, the frame has 3 other abilities, use those. I mean there are excalibur builds that focus on radial blind or on lower levels on Radial Javelin, Ivara also has 2 incredibly useful abilities besides her bow etc. Don't go and try ruin things for people that actually love the concept, and wait for another frame/pick one of the other 30+ frames and play those. Geezuus.

 

Also, Exalted blade is really the ONE SINGLE EXALTED WEAPON that your point holds any merit for, because it is melee and ranged at the same time. Valkyr? purely melee, if you want to shoot stuff, you leave the mode. Ivara? You want to melee something? deactivate the bow. Mesa? You want to move and not get oneshot by melee enemies, you leave the mode. Seriously, Exalted Blade is the one and only exalted weapon that makes your other weapons obsolete, because you cannot "quick melee" with an exalted melee weapon when you are busy shooting stuff and an enemy gets close to you.

Edited November 4, 2017 by ShikiRen

[Flandre_Scarlet_]

I'm sorry to tell you this, but exalted weapons are indeed a good choice and gameplay mechanic. They feel very different compared to regular weapons, and they all have unique gameplay mechanics. If you used Excalibur's Exalted Blade, you should remember how powerful it was and still is. Having a melee weapon shoot waves of energy which can land headshots and are highly effective even without the use of riven mods is quite good. Excalibur's exalted blade augment turned him into a blender, which is something other melee weapons couldn't achieve in the same way his Exalted Blade did.

As long as Khora's whip has new animations and a nice new gameplay mechanic that makes her feel unique, I'm all for it. Also, don't forget about the fact that you can always choose to ignore her Exalted Whip and focus on her other 3 abilities, just like you could with Excalibur.

Let's say her Exalted Whip has a hidden ability like the Mini-Radial Blind in Excalibur's Exalted Blade, that way you wouldn't even lose out on a single skill slot.

 

TLDR: Her exalted Whip sounds good and I'm all for it because it's not like every Warframe has an Exalted Weapon.