Khora exalted whip, please don't!

[Terrornaut]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vagnar said:

I would like to see Rivens start applying to Exalted Weapons at least in some fashion. Maybe make the stats that carry over a locked Disposition so people don't just stat stick a 5* disposition mod? 

 

Like, weapon you're using has a 5* disposition, and the stats do carry over to the exalted weapon, but the stats that DO transfer over are scaled down to a 1-3* range disposition.

 

Right now on exalted weapon frames it feels like you're stuck picking one or the other if you actively participate in the riven system.

From my post above yours:

 

Exalted weapons are basically just strong weapons that have their own rivens and augments built in. Seriously.  Its exactly that, its just we don't get to see those 'exalted mods'.  They are identical.  They're weapons that benefit from weapon mods and also from warframe stats.  Just taking from the warframe stats like range and power basically rivenize them.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

13 hours ago, Mudfam said:

Exalted melee weapons are also vastly inferior to regular melee, because they don't have access to the mods which makes melee weapons good in the first place

Like...have you even USED an exalted weapon before?

If you did, then you would know that this is largely false.

Equipped generic melee mods (i.e. element, base damage, critical stuff, as long as it's not class/weapon specific) affect all of the Exalted weapons.

Edited November 4, 2017 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[Mudfam]

50 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Like...have you even USED an exalted weapon before?

If you did, then you would know that this is largely false.

Equipped generic melee mods (i.e. element, base damage, critical stuff, as long as it's not class/weapon specific) affect all of the Exalted weapons.

Eh, chromatic blade is indeed very good, but although it's not my preference at all, mods like meme strike, blood rush and high dispo rivens make regular melee weapons scale far beyond what exalted weapons can do. For any content that we normally do it's total overkill anyway though.

Regardless I don't care much for any of this, or melee in general tbh. I use melee more as a utility and mobility thing, not a main approach to combat. It was more of a side note, mainly issues that I've seen brought up by others.

[Korusagi]

Ya know... could be "worse" _{(in quotes for personal points of view)}
 

Spoiler

 

Exalted sword for Excalibur

Exalted dual sword / dai-nikana for Umbra Exalibur

Exalted dual pistols for Mesa

Exalted Archwing for Titania

Exalted bow for Ivara

Exalted machinegun for Vauban

Exalted claws for Valkyr

Exalted staff for Wukong

Exalted fists for Atlas

Exaled glaive for Nyx _{(Nemesis incarnate!)}

Exalted axe for Rhino

Exalted hammer for Gara _{(ooooh, that was close!)}

Exalted single dagger for Banshee

Exalted dual daggers for Ash

Exalted sparring for Loki

Exalted polearm for Inaros

Exalted sword and shield for Oberon

Exalted scythe for Nekros

Exalted tonfas for Mag

Exalted rapier for Limbo

Exalted machete for Hydroid

Exalted fan for Zephyr _{(fan melee got delayed)}

Exalted Blade-whip for Nidus

Exalted whip for Valk..nope, Saryn! DE: "nope... Khora!"

 

At least now Valkyr will now have a very very very good friend... similar tastes for whips and violence, you dig ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

ALSO, this!

C'mon... let's just pass on this one, yes?

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Korusagi

[SenorClipClop]

18 hours ago, Mudfam said:

Khora exalted whip, please don't!

I'd say it's far too early to be judging it, given that "there will be an exhalted whip" is literally all we know. Each exhalted melee adds something more than just a weapon: Excal gets big Fluctus waves, Valkyr gets invincibility, Wukong gets added range based on his combo. With the upcoming Khora, it's highly unlikely that they'll give us just a whip. The spider queen's exhalted weapon may offer CC options, multiple threads, etc. Anything is possible. But if you're fuming after just a sentence of info, you're getting mad before it's warranted.

[Gurpgork]

I tend to have a lot of disdain for Exalted weapons, but I think my problem with them isn't so much that they replace my melee weapons, but more that they just don't feel different from my melee weapons.

And this isn't just a problem that Exalted weapons have. This is a problem that the entire melee system has. I use exactly the same playstyle when I use a greatsword or a katana or a blade and whip or a warhammer or a dagger or claws or a polearm or whatever else. I could be using any one of them, and it genuinely doesn't feel like it matters which one I've picked, other than the numbers that appear on my screen and how many enemies I hit at once. I use basically the same keystrokes whether I'm fighting with my Mios or using Exalted Blade.

Like, sure, feeling shoehorned into having 100% uptime on an ability is a legitimate problem, as is demoting your actual melee weapon to the status of statstick, but my biggest problem with them by far is how redundant they feel.

If each and every Exalted weapon felt dramatically different from each other and all of our other melee weapons, then I wouldn't mind them. But in their current state, they just feel really bland and underdeveloped. 

[Azamagon]

5 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

I tend to have a lot of disdain for Exalted weapons, but I think my problem with them isn't so much that they replace my melee weapons, but more that they just don't feel different from my melee weapons.

And this isn't just a problem that Exalted weapons have. This is a problem that the entire melee system has. I use exactly the same playstyle when I use a greatsword or a katana or a blade and whip or a warhammer or a dagger or claws or a polearm or whatever else. I could be using any one of them, and it genuinely doesn't feel like it matters which one I've picked, other than the numbers that appear on my screen and how many enemies I hit at once. I use basically the same keystrokes whether I'm fighting with my Mios or using Exalted Blade.

Like, sure, feeling shoehorned into having 100% uptime on an ability is a legitimate problem, as is demoting your actual melee weapon to the status of statstick, but my biggest problem with them by far is how redundant they feel.

If each and every Exalted weapon felt dramatically different from each other and all of our other melee weapons, then I wouldn't mind them. But in their current state, they just feel really bland and underdeveloped. 

And this is actually a prime example of why mechanical and numerical balance REALLY matters in a game like this.

Think about it: Since combos are generally not very rewarding, since we can't use chargeattacks from quickmelee with most weapons, since status weapons all become powerful monsters with Condition Overload, since all weapons can get uberfast with Primed Fury (and/or Berserker), since mods like Maiming Strike and Blood Rush (and their ilk) exist... we often don't do much other than spam quickmelee or slideattacks. And since this "meta" is what the highend stuff in WF is catered to... well, you WILL get a really stale and repetitive gameplay with melee (which imo, should be all about variety and risk/reward). If a hammer can be swung around as fast as a dagger, there is not much difference in "feel".

If each melee attack had a purpose (and shouldn't be able to be modded specifically, Maiming Strike, as good as it is, is the bane of variety), and if high-end fighting wasn't so insanely quick in regards to time-to-kill (both against our enemies, AND against us on non-tanky frames), if that "burstyness" wasn't so extreme, I bet melee combat could be way more fun and interesting.

It should, imo, be more like this:
Take X weapon.
* Its slideattack could be about quickly closing the gap between you and a single enemy (Say, with a lunge?) with moderate damage (a lot less damage if done at a short distance, to prevent spam).
* Same for wallattacks, let them be amazing gapcloser, from very far away, with high damage towards a single enemy, due to requiring more effort and is environment-dependant.
* Its airattack is slow, but also make it VERY strong, so it's a good "on the move"-attack for tall enemies, and ofc, good for swatting airborne enemies.
* The chargeattack could be good for when completely surrounded, with decent damage and CC, so it'd be a good emergency tool.
* The spamcombo should be very basic, just meant for easy and fast attacks, with no smancy-fancy effects.
* Then one combo could be good for taking out a single target (say, opens an enemy to finishers, or strikes many times at one target (like multistabs) with slashprocs, etc). These exist, yes, but are often far too lengthy and/or full of useless "fluff".
* Another combo could be a tad bit slower, but use a wider arc of attacks, good for when cleaving through dense crowds.
* Then one more combo which could be good for mediumrange gapclosing (not as far as slide/wall-attack though), maybe with some CC or other niche effect.
* Add to it that blocking actually allowed us to block 100% of frontal non-AoE damage (but with a timer, like wallclinging), then we'd actually be able to close distances to enemies with melee more safely, even with frail Warframes (thus needing to rely on cheese like old Shadowstep wouldn't feel so "necessary").
* Then also make channeling an actual useful powerbooster, with far less hefty energycosts (maybe drain per sec instead?), and it'd be good for critical and tough moments (like, on higherlevel content and such).

In short, give EACH attack and mechanic a distinct purpose.

Sidenote: A stance that ALMOST does this right with its combos is Decisive Judgment. Basic spamcombo is fast and basic. Pausecombo quickly opens enemies to finishers. Holdcombo is a fast short/mediumrange gapcloser with ragdoll CC. Only its blockcombo misses a tad; It adds two slow and strong attacks, but uses VERTICAL strikes, thus JUST missing out on getting the "slow crowdcleaving combo"-niche, and instead competes with the pausecombo's single target niche (thus, becoing kind of redundant).

Moving over to Exalted Weapons: This is why I'm torn on wether they should actually exist or not. If Exalted Weapons are clearly superior weapons to our other regular choices, then our regular choices become moot, no? What niche can the Exalted Weapons fulfill without eclipsing our regular weapons? This is why I agreed that Exalted Weapons would probably be better off as simply being "enhancers", rather than a completely seperate weapon.
On the other hand, I must admit that most Exalted Weapons are still (potentially) interesting, from a "fluff and fanciness" PoV. But is that really enough reason for them to... well, exist?

Aaaand I rambled on for way too long again. Sorry! :D

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

Exalted whip sounds pretty stupid, but it might be cool, who knows. We all have our weird "addictions" if you know what i'm sayin hit me up ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Edited November 5, 2017 by (PS4)PS_90210

[(PSN)CrimsonAxure]

12 hours ago, Korusagi said:

Ya know... could be "worse" _{(in quotes for personal points of view)}
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Exalted sword for Excalibur

Exalted dual sword / dai-nikana for Umbra Exalibur

Exalted dual pistols for Mesa

Exalted Archwing for Titania

Exalted bow for Ivara

Exalted machinegun for Vauban

Exalted claws for Valkyr

Exalted staff for Wukong

Exalted fists for Atlas

Exaled glaive for Nyx _{(Nemesis incarnate!)}

Exalted axe for Rhino

Exalted hammer for Gara _{(ooooh, that was close!)}

Exalted single dagger for Banshee

Exalted dual daggers for Ash

Exalted sparring for Loki

Exalted polearm for Inaros

Exalted sword and shield for Oberon

Exalted scythe for Nekros

Exalted tonfas for Mag

Exalted rapier for Limbo

Exalted machete for Hydroid

Exalted fan for Zephyr _{(fan melee got delayed)}

Exalted Blade-whip for Nidus

Exalted whip for Valk..nope, Saryn! DE: "nope... Khora!"

 

At least now Valkyr will now have a very very very good friend... similar tastes for whips and violence, you dig ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

ALSO, this!

C'mon... let's just pass on this one, yes?

 

I call that B-- - - - - - - - -D  - - -  - - -S - - -- - M ---  --  

[zornyan]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

And this is actually a prime example of why mechanical and numerical balance REALLY matters in a game like this.

Think about it: Since combos are generally not very rewarding, since we can't use chargeattacks from quickmelee with most weapons, since status weapons all become powerful monsters with Condition Overload, since all weapons can get uberfast with Primed Fury (and/or Berserker), since mods like Maiming Strike and Blood Rush (and their ilk) exist... we often don't do much other than spam quickmelee or slideattacks. And since this "meta" is what the highend stuff in WF is catered to... well, you WILL get a really stale and repetitive gameplay with melee (which imo, should be all about variety and risk/reward). If a hammer can be swung around as fast as a dagger, there is not much difference in "feel".

If each melee attack had a purpose (and shouldn't be able to be modded specifically, Maiming Strike, as good as it is, is the bane of variety), and if high-end fighting wasn't so insanely quick in regards to time-to-kill (both against our enemies, AND against us on non-tanky frames), if that "burstyness" wasn't so extreme, I bet melee combat could be way more fun and interesting.

It should, imo, be more like this:
Take X weapon.
* Its slideattack could be about quickly closing the gap between you and a single enemy (Say, with a lunge?) with moderate damage (a lot less damage if done at a short distance, to prevent spam).
* Same for wallattacks, let them be amazing gapcloser, from very far away, with high damage towards a single enemy, due to requiring more effort and is environment-dependant.
* Its airattack is slow, but also make it VERY strong, so it's a good "on the move"-attack for tall enemies, and ofc, good for swatting airborne enemies.
* The chargeattack could be good for when completely surrounded, with decent damage and CC, so it'd be a good emergency tool.
* The spamcombo should be very basic, just meant for easy and fast attacks, with no smancy-fancy effects.
* Then one combo could be good for taking out a single target (say, opens an enemy to finishers, or strikes many times at one target (like multistabs) with slashprocs, etc). These exist, yes, but are often far too lengthy and/or full of useless "fluff".
* Another combo could be a tad bit slower, but use a wider arc of attacks, good for when cleaving through dense crowds.
* Then one more combo which could be good for mediumrange gapclosing (not as far as slide/wall-attack though), maybe with some CC or other niche effect.
* Add to it that blocking actually allowed us to block 100% of frontal non-AoE damage (but with a timer, like wallclinging), then we'd actually be able to close distances to enemies with melee more safely, even with frail Warframes (thus needing to rely on cheese like old Shadowstep wouldn't feel so "necessary").
* Then also make channeling an actual useful powerbooster, with far less hefty energycosts (maybe drain per sec instead?), and it'd be good for critical and tough moments (like, on higherlevel content and such).

In short, give EACH attack and mechanic a distinct purpose.

Sidenote: A stance that ALMOST does this right with its combos is Decisive Judgment. Basic spamcombo is fast and basic. Pausecombo quickly opens enemies to finishers. Holdcombo is a fast short/mediumrange gapcloser with ragdoll CC. Only its blockcombo misses a tad; It adds two slow and strong attacks, but uses VERTICAL strikes, thus JUST missing out on getting the "slow crowdcleaving combo"-niche, and instead competes with the pausecombo's single target niche (thus, becoing kind of redundant).

Moving over to Exalted Weapons: This is why I'm torn on wether they should actually exist or not. If Exalted Weapons are clearly superior weapons to our other regular choices, then our regular choices become moot, no? What niche can the Exalted Weapons fulfill without eclipsing our regular weapons? This is why I agreed that Exalted Weapons would probably be better off as simply being "enhancers", rather than a completely seperate weapon.
On the other hand, I must admit that most Exalted Weapons are still (potentially) interesting, from a "fluff and fanciness" PoV. But is that really enough reason for them to... well, exist?

Aaaand I rambled on for way too long again. Sorry! :D

The biggest issue with this is split into two.

 

Money, DE don’t work for free, updates like this don’t generally bring in any new players or income, updates like POE or a shiny new frame/quest bring in the £££ which ultimately is all that matters, a system like you suggested above would take them possibly years to work on, let alone the spaghetti code this game hinges on, I mean an update to bounty loot tables completely broke clan dojos and Vor boss fight, could you imagine the insurmountable amount of game breaking bugs this could bring us?

 

ultimately I feel it would take them too long to do, and wouldn’t be half as good as proposed as they themselves know it wouldn’t be worth the investment, we already have so many half assed systems that just get abandoned and left broken/unfinished because it doesn’t bring the cash in (such as raids) I don’t want them to break melee for this.

[Azamagon]

5 minutes ago, zornyan said:

The biggest issue with this is split into two.

 

Money, DE don’t work for free, updates like this don’t generally bring in any new players or income, updates like POE or a shiny new frame/quest bring in the £££ which ultimately is all that matters, a system like you suggested above would take them possibly years to work on, let alone the spaghetti code this game hinges on, I mean an update to bounty loot tables completely broke clan dojos and Vor boss fight, could you imagine the insurmountable amount of game breaking bugs this could bring us?

 

ultimately I feel it would take them too long to do, and wouldn’t be half as good as proposed as they themselves know it wouldn’t be worth the investment, we already have so many half assed systems that just get abandoned and left broken/unfinished because it doesn’t bring the cash in (such as raids) I don’t want them to break melee for this.

Well, it was more pointing out what WOULD be a good system, but not that it's likely to happen.

That said though, they HAVE made huge revamps of systems already, with seemingly no benefit other than the intention of "it plays better than before". Parkour 2.0, Damage 2.0, Mod upgrading (the Endo-system) and Melee 2.0, being prime examples.

And that said, don't underestimate the indirect monetary power of fixing QoL-issues. If people massively enjoy the game they are playing and see that things which are in need of fixing DO get fixed, they are most likely also more willing to spend money on it too.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Azamagon

[texrei]

1 hour ago, (PS4)PS_90210 said:

I call that B-- - - - - - - - -D  - - -  - - -S - - -- - M ---  --  

Pleasure can get deadly

Quote

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Btw spiders can bind hard

Edited November 5, 2017 by texrei

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

If each melee attack had a purpose (and shouldn't be able to be modded specifically, Maiming Strike, as good as it is, is the bane of variety), and if high-end fighting wasn't so insanely quick in regards to time-to-kill (both against our enemies, AND against us on non-tanky frames), if that "burstyness" wasn't so extreme, I bet melee combat could be way more fun and interesting.

This is certainly something that should be implemented, and while I'm inclined to think that the most important thing to making the melee system feel interesting is giving every melee class (and maybe even every stance) its own distinct purpose and playstyle, I think that these two things can go hand in hand. I think on top of giving every form of melee attack its own purpose, it would be fantastic if these attacks were functionally different on every melee class.

Let's consider your example of the slide attack. Maybe for single swords, for example, it's for closing a gap and hitting one target with a moderate amount of damage. But maybe for daggers, it's more of a duck and weave maneuver, where it has next to no effect on your enemies, but gives you a huge burst of mobility and makes you near-impossible to hit while you're executing it. And then maybe for hammers, it gives you very little mobility, but knocks down enemies around you. It's the same keystrokes on all three, and they are all very  similar on some level, but they all have vastly different functions. 

I know I'm kind of running off with your idea here, but I think that would be a great way to make every melee weapon feel different while also making the system itself more interesting and fun to use. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Gurpgork

[Azamagon]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

This is certainly something that should be implemented, and while I'm inclined to think that the most important thing to making the melee system feel interesting is giving every melee class (and maybe even every stance) its own distinct purpose and playstyle, I think that these two things can go hand in hand. I think on top of giving every form of melee attack its own purpose, it would be fantastic if these attacks were functionally different on every melee class.

Let's consider your example of the slide attack. Maybe for single swords, for example, it's for closing a gap and hitting one target with a moderate amount of damage. But maybe for daggers, it's more of a duck and weave maneuver, where it has next to no effect on your enemies, but gives you a huge burst of mobility and makes you near-impossible to hit while you're executing it. And then maybe for hammers, it gives you very little mobility, but knocks down enemies around you. It's the same keystrokes on all three, and they are all very  similar on some level, but they all have vastly different functions. 

I know I'm kind of running off with your idea here, but I think that would be a great way to make every melee weapon feel different while also making the system itself more interesting and fun to use. 

Oh no, what you said is exactly what could be done, as long as it's done properly :)
With my shown examples, I didn't mean that the slide-attack would have to be a gapcloser for all stances/meleeclasses, that was just giving an example of how you could distribute attack-niches for each and every melee attack for ONE weapon/stance. While having some form of streamlining would be easier ofc (at least with SOME attacks, like say, wallattacks always being one option as a powerful gapcloser, because they require very specific input, are situational and are hard to spam), variety is important too :)

[Dasmir]

if it for raw damage, make it scale with rivens and problem solved and since we are it lets make every skill scale with ravens.

 

if something im worried about its her kavat interaction, im really looking for a beastmaster warframe more than a dominatrix with a wip.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Dasmir

[Silver-Gear]

Personally my problem with exalted weapons is that... there are not enough of them!!

If it were up to me many warframes would have their own exalted weapons, either by default or by augments (Ice axe for Frost please DE)

the idea of the exalted wip seem very interesting, especially by how popular wips are these days.

and if someone doesn't like that as her 4th ability or doesn't like the idea of using a wip, just dont use it.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 4:13 AM, Mudfam said:

Exalted weapons however are just bad. Rolling a frame and weapon into one is a terrible idea, it basically just removes our choice of playstyle and weapon, which are immesurably important. Exalted melee weapons are also vastly inferior to regular melee, because they don't have access to the mods which makes melee weapons good in the first place, and you know, rivens.

I beg you to reconsider. Give us abilities that have an active role in the gameplay, and don't define how we play. Exalted weapons in particular are extremely restrictive and tend to hugely simplify the otherwise diverse, synergy and option rich Warframe gameplay that makes it special.

I don't think that to be the case at all.  Mostly because or what you listed below.  Ivara just isn't the only case for this.  

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 4:28 AM, Mudfam said:

Ivara is a bit of an exception with a some nice utility outside of her exalted weapon (even though I don't like her),

I look forward to this new frame specifically because of not only the looks, but also the Exalted Whip.  *hehe, fond memories of beasting with Ivy in the SC games comes to mind*.

Also, I could have sworn that all my Exalted Weapon using frames still use the weapon mods.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.  I also find Valkitty, Titania, and Ivara to be quite useful without using Exalted and while using them.  Titania being the only one I have built completely around RW.

 

Now with that said.  Please do not interfere with my chance to get a Warframe version of Ivy from Soul Calibur!  

[Heatnix.]

Yeah when I read about the exalted whip... she's going to be "blah" in the end. Just like Excalibur endlessly doing the one trick trying to be useful.

But DE doesn't care about community input so don't bother trying to make a point about it. In fact, if you do make a point about it, they will only be encouraged to do the opposite and censor your every post about it no matter how valid your points are. 'how they do.

[PopGligor]

Exalted weapons inherit the mods from your relevant weapon slot. Exalted blade inherits melee mods, artemis bow inherits primary mods. Titania's weapons inherit both melee and primary. I really like exalted weapons, because they're like an extra weapon slot. For me, an exalted weapon is a huge benefit to a frame.

[Mintaro]

Personal prefence. Sorry if you are not a fan of exalted weapons and find them restricting but other people do enjoy those exalted weapons. So why change the new frame concept to your style?

I if recall correctly it had been personal work for one of DE's employee that wanted that whip theme warframe.

[m101011]

you dont get it mud. exalted weapons are op and they are stacking them on female frames because the feminist shtick is all prime time dev streamers have to look forward to and some how they run the company. maybe it was some sexual harassment settlement or something idk. its clear from other devs comments they dont think its rational or even acceptable letting those 2 call the shots but they decide what happens to random junk so what ever. another exalted weapon on some @#&* bot

Edited November 5, 2017 by m101011

[Arniox]

I'm mostly worried about the kavat AI. From all the AI abilities, none of them are worth it in almost any mission cause they're just so clunky. 

The exalted whip I'm actually quite interested in. For me, exalted weapons are awesome and are the type of game play I want. But that's imo

[IggySnow]

Iv said it before and ill say it again. Any ability that scales off of weapon mods should have its own separate modding capacity.

[TennoPain]

Kora is the skin of the tree

[Neptlude]

I only uses salted weapons as last resort when using frames like these... Or when I get that focus multiplier I go into salted mode and stops it when focus multiplier is done. :T