EA debacle and Warframe

[Urlan]

7 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

Don't know what Hawaii said on the matter, but regarding the Belgium case it was stated(or translated as such) that it was dependant on your ability to succeed in the game.

Arguably, you don't really need anything in Warframe' packs to succeed.

If we go back to old school warframe where Warframe's actually required mods for their powers, this may be seen as paying to succeed.

I don't think this is much of an issue for DE, i'd even guess some of the Devs themselves have forgotten that some of the packs exist even. Removing them won't really be too much of a hassle i'd imagine. 

EA has got in trouble for this kind of thing in the past, with Mass Effect 3's multiplayer rewards system originally.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Who actually buys those packs though...I don't even know if anyone would notice they were missing unless DE said spoke to the removal directly.

 

11 minutes ago, Urlan said:

EA has got in trouble for this kind of thing in the past, with Mass Effect 3's multiplayer rewards system originally.

The bad press was nothing compared to the amount of revenue they generated which is why you saw similar crates in ME:A and have been doing crates for years now in SWToR.

[phoenix1992]

I have bought relic packs on multiple occasion when a new prime selection comes out (it comes in 5 relics), so much for the "no one buys stuff".

The thing that I don't get is the fear mongering  without disclosing all available information about the systems at place and the context of the situation. 

BF2 will be a precedent for the gaming industry and how it will be viewed, but it won't happen today or tomorrow.

[Sziklamester]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

Move all microtransactions in Warframe to cosmetics only ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then there shouldn't be slots and items for plat all. Same wih frames only skins for weapons and frames. They basically use a pay to winnish model because they sell power but they managed to avoid the lawsuits because in game all items are farmable except slots. If they turn this game into less microtransaction oriented, then they should remove the slot restrictions, items-frames and other elements sales for platinum and add to the market only skins as cosmetics and some cosmetic armor parts which really in the cosmetic category. An incubator for kubrows or kubrow eggs etc shouldn't cost plat. Others paid for that platinum and the trade and grinding is not justify there is some "gambling".

[METAHUMVN]

2 hours ago, WNxMatthew said:

Ok, I just read about the verdict for the EA loot box system being categorized as "gambling" in Belgium and Hawaii and started thinking about how, if any way, this is gonna effect Warframe. I am not saying DE acts like EA in any way but wondering if this will have any indirect consequences. Since, I guess, Warframe does have a "gambling" side in the form of the Mod packs and Relic packs. On the other hand, warframe allows you to pay with platinum and not your actual credit card so you can still get these packs without using your money. Do you think we will be effected if something drastic is gonna come out of this?

Or maybe I am overthinking this and I am just being a worry wart 

It won't be an issue, because Warframe's core microtransaction (MT) system isn't based around loot crates. Pretty much every game is going to involve some form of RNG-based reward system, whether it involves IRL money or in-game mechanics. 

The deeper issue with EA is that you already pay $60+ for the base game, and then they want you to pay $100+ more dollars over the next few months buying random loot crates that are really the *only* way to get the stuff you want. 

Warframe isn't like that. First, Warframe's base game is free. Then, you buy platinum to either win faster, or win easier. If you really think about it, there really is no "loot crate" in Warframe (besides those few wasteful mod pack stuff which literally no one in their right mind buys). Everything in the game can be purchased directly, either through the market or through the playerbase, aka the trade channel aka the Black Market, as I like to call it. 

That's why Warframe has managed, despite the intense grind and scope of the game, to get away with a lot of things and for good measure, because Warframe's model, though demanding at times, is fair and precise. On the other hand, EA's model with SW: BFII is vague and imprecise, and the core of their MT economy is based on loot crates, while Warframe's economy isn't. 

Good point you brought up though; I just don't think it'll be an issue because "loot crate" type systems aren't the core of Warframe's economy. DE will probably remove those mod pack thingys one day as well, once they take a look into rebalancing the economy (probably sometime within the next 1-2 years, when they revamp some of the game's core mechanics, release Market 3.0, and run out of new primes to make).  

[Bibliothekar]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb UF-1215:

and then they want you to pay $100+ more dollars over the next few months buying random loot crates that are really the *only* way to get the stuff you want.

Saw a post the other day where someone ran the numbers and if you pay for everything in BF2 with your credit card, you come out a little over USD2000. Oh, and the analyst who said EA had to do that because <jim sterling voice>"making video games is expensive"</jim sterling voice>? Yeah, he works for EA.

[meristu]

2 hours ago, Bibliothekar said:

Sorry, but I disagree. Loot boxes have become a really bad habit in the industry™ and it was more than time for the governments to take a look into them. There's tons of other and better ways to do random rewards, like Warframe does with caches and relics. You could unlock certain characters by getting certain achievements (see: Binding of Isaac). Putting all your stuff into one giant drop table and selling the player a grab into that pot (in a that they already paid for, no less) is a thing that should burn in hell. And that goes twice for loot boxes that don't remove duplicates.

Axi A2 (AkLex Prime) can only be gotten from Baro, though.

yeah you are right ... but why didnt people stand against it sooner, there are tons of p2w games, there are games with even worse systems, and this exists for at least last 5 years, the whole thing is standing on current problem where people again preordered thing from EA and got angry and this whole thing is going to hurt whole game industry rather than help it, if it doesnt end soon

[Tsunero]

Warframe should be fine. Besides, it's the only game that I know of that lets you manipulate "loot box" aka relic drop rates (and if you are in a 4 player squad you even get to pick what you want from the drops). The mentioned packs are so laughable that I think nobody ever buys them lol and DE doesn't push them either.

[saradonin]

10 minutes ago, meristu said:

[...] this whole thing is going to hurt whole game industry rather than help it, if it doesnt end soon

You're confusing game industry with money-grabbing douchebags . And yes, I sincerely hope this will hurt the latter, EA has been a cancer in this field for long enough. I can't see how this in any way may hurt honest developers and publishers like CDProject, Larian, Obsidian or many others, whose products are well worth the money spent.

The only fear is some fools never learn: they rage today, but tomorrow comes and they will happiliy take part in another preorder scam.

Edited November 22, 2017 by saradonin

[Bibliothekar]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb meristu:

but why didnt people stand against it sooner

Because of the "frog in boiling water" thing. If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it'll jump right out of it again. If you throw the frog into a pot of cold water and slowly heat it up to boiling, it'll stay in there until cooked. Yeah, loot boxes have always been bad, but it has only been over the last year that you've started to see them in virtually every single game and publishers got more and more greedy.

People were always grumbling about loot boxes, but if EA hadn't overdone it so much with BF2, nothing would have come out of that for at least another year. But they wanted to milk their players now and lost any restraint they might have had.

[Rekkou]

No idea why people keep resorting to "gambling" to stop lootbox. It won't, like alcohol or smoking, lootbox being classified as gambling will only locked them from children or teens, not adults

The worst thing to happen if loot box is classified as "gambling" is that the game ESRB rating will bumped to M. And warframe is already rated M due to blood and gore violence.

[Brorelia]

My understanding was that they pulled the loot boxes only because Disney was upset with them using such a system. As such all other EA games will likely have them in full force.

As much as people hate the term minmaxing does apply to real world economics and EA was minimizing effort to maximize profits and people have displayed that they are alright with that by buying their product. You will have to get a far greater part of the consumers to stop buying before EA will change their ways or have companies like Disney indirectly threatening to take away their ability to make games for the star wars cash cow.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Rekkou said:

No idea why people keep resorting to "gambling" to stop lootbox. It won't, like alcohol or smoking, lootbox being classified as gambling will only locked them from children or teens, not adults

The worst thing to happen if loot box is classified as "gambling" is that the game ESRB rating will bumped to M. And warframe is already rated M due to blood and gore violence.

Limits the market, limits the audience and subsequently hits the devs revenue.

Star Wars BF2 is currently rated 'teen' meaning its pretty freely purchaseable. Lets face it, its Star Wars, it's going to be aimed at younger people.

You take that kids game and slap a big old 'M' rating on it and you find that it's not as freely accessible for youth. Parents are also less likely to buy the game for their kids when the kid is unable to purchase it for themself.

Perhaps it isn't the best solution, but revenue will take a hit, and thats all EA really care about.

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Limits the market, limits the audience and subsequently hits the devs revenue.

Star Wars BF2 is currently rated 'teen' meaning its pretty freely purchaseable. Lets face it, its Star Wars, it's going to be aimed at younger people.

You take that kids game and slap a big old 'M' rating on it and you find that it's not as freely accessible for youth. Parents are also less likely to buy the game for their kids when the kid is unable to purchase it for themself.

Perhaps it isn't the best solution, but revenue will take a hit, and thats all EA really care about.

Knowing EA, the outcome will be worse because they will just find a way to make the adults pay more to compensate the loss.

[DeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Knowing EA, the outcome will be worse because they will just find a way to make the adults pay more to compensate the loss.

They can try, given it's mostly the adults complaining though I don't see it working. The gaming community as a whole has been getting more and more outspoken about EA's antics, I'm kinda hoping this'll be a turning point. Either EA change, or gamers boycott them in protest.

Yes, I am delusional.

[Bibliothekar]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb Rekkou:

The worst thing to happen if loot box is classified as "gambling" is that the game ESRB rating will bumped to M. And warframe is already rated M due to blood and gore violence.

Even if you were correct (we'll see), the ESRB sticker would then show "Rated M for Blood and Gore, Violence, and Gambling".

[meristu]

59 minutes ago, saradonin said:

You're confusing game industry with money-grabbing douchebags . And yes, I sincerely hope this will hurt the latter, EA has been a cancer in this field for long enough. I can't see how this in any way may hurt honest developers and publishers like CDProject, Larian, Obsidian or many others, whose products are well worth the money spent.

The only fear is some fools never learn: they rage today, but tomorrow comes and they will happiliy take part in another preorder scam.

it will end in even more expensive games and tons of games will turn directly into p2w because "you cant have random loot so we will directly give you op items" and tons of other problems, it will also have impact on games with lootboxes with items that dont affect the gameplay ... there will be companies that wont have problem with it but people are forgetting that EA does nothing, EA only owns tons of companies making games and these games will be ruined by it ...

I am not trying to defend money milking companies I am just saying that way people are fighting against them is lame ... and while net neutrality is being discussed people on the internet are whining about having to play game to unlock content

[(PSN)robotwars7]

meh, i think EA deserve all the criticism they get. their corporate greed is what is driving the gaming industry towards a cliff edge. thanks to them we can't have new AAA titles without immediately thinking "oh god, there'll be Microtransactions". the only people they help are themselves.

Warframe doesn't suffer from these problems, DE's system is "pay to get the same things faster". there's an identical endpoint for both the Wallet Warrior and the Grinder alike. being able to obtain premium currency in-game helps enormously, and is a step that most other developers aren't willing to take. I'm not worried about DE money grabbing one bit, they probably hate EA as much as EA's own community do.

[(PSN)CaseFace8]

2 hours ago, meristu said:

it will end in even more expensive games and tons of games will turn directly into p2w because "you cant have random loot so we will directly give you op items" and tons of other problems, it will also have impact on games with lootboxes with items that dont affect the gameplay ... there will be companies that wont have problem with it but people are forgetting that EA does nothing, EA only owns tons of companies making games and these games will be ruined by it ...

I am not trying to defend money milking companies I am just saying that way people are fighting against them is lame ... and while net neutrality is being discussed people on the internet are whining about having to play game to unlock content

Games may get slightly more expensive, but if they try to push the initial cost too much, people will just not spend the money. I mean, how many people do you hear currently say $60 is too much, I'll wait until it is on sale. If games were $100 there would be a lot less people buying them.

If laws were changed a game like overwatch that has cosmetics only loot boxes would easily be able to make the switch to a full cosmetics shop. Any game that has lootboxes tied to progression would take the hardest hit. They would have to find a way to change the way you earn things, and also figure out a new monetization scheme. And while current pay2win models can hide that to a degree buy saying nothing is guaranteed in a loot box, they would have a tough time explaining away a straight up purchasable advantage. Just as gamers are pushing back on loot boxes, they would push back very hard on direct pay2win purchases.

The problem right now is not the microtransactions themselves, but the manipulation involved with loot boxes. Just look at warframe. People spend money because they want to (cosmetics, reduce wait, reduce grind); they are not forced or manipulated into it. Loot boxes manipulate you to spend more, because maybe the next one will have what you actually want, and that is the only way to get what you want. 

(Also a note, having to play for 8hrs a day for 18 months to unlock everything in a full priced game is outrageous. That is not including anything they add in the DLC, which would have just increased that. Your other option is to spend $2,000. That is what people are mad about with Battlefront.)

[Emolition]

Only relic packs I buy is syndicate ones that don't cost me money. So don't really care if its gambling in those relic packs as I just fill up my daily cap again for a new pack. But if they sell relics for platinum I guess that could be a diffrent thing even tho you know you will be getting relics as they don't throw in diffrent crap loot in those boxes.

But allso warframe is a f2p game not a 60 dollar game.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Emolition

[Legion-Shields]

I believe that DE is "the real deal", when it comes to passionate developers who truly want the best for their game and their community. I don't believe they would take their game in this direction. It helps that they aren't tied down by a publisher.

[Sapphic-Sandra]

Lol didn't hear about this until now. Screw EA, I hated those RNG mechanics in their games. At least in warframe I can just spend plat from trading if I get frustrated enough (like I rarely ever build quest warframes anymore). 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Sapphic-Sandra

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Hold your horses, the verdict is not in yet:

 

[Eidolon_Slayer]

This won't really affect Warframe. DE could remove relic packs in the game, people won't care about it.

[Urlan]

7 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Who actually buys those packs though...I don't even know if anyone would notice they were missing unless DE said spoke to the removal directly.

 

The bad press was nothing compared to the amount of revenue they generated which is why you saw similar crates in ME:A and have been doing crates for years now in SWToR.

Of course! Gambling is big business as they say.