The Amount of Nerfing is Absurd

[(PSN)psycofang]

8 hours ago, Ecliptix said:

This is not an MMO please refrain from treating it like one,

Then what is this game really? Its eerily similar to Vindictus (a mmo) in terms of how its handled and available content

Edited December 5, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[L0rdados]

Peacemaker is ok, but Gara's wall?? NERF THAT S#&$ RIGHT NOW. -DE

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

7 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Give yourself a good amount of time to really test what you are talking about before posting your feedback.

While I normally agree with this sort of advice, the upcoming Gara change is so Viver-like that we really don't need to 'try it out' before declaring it as a straight up excessive nerf.

I mean, with the proposed changes, it doesn't have a single good thing going for it. You can only have one active at a time, you can't stack it's health, and the enemies, as they funnel into lanes due to their AI, will punch very small holes in it and leave the rest just sitting there. Of course, if you do somehow happen to make it survive enemy attacks before it's duration runs out, you still have to re-cast it to get any protection again.

And even if we ignore the wall aspect and look at the other part, the 'vitrification', it has it's own set of problems. It takes time to cast, it takes even more time to harden, and it prevents status effects, leaving only raw damage/crit to use on them, which actually makes Sortie 3 Grineer tougher, not weaker, as you would want either corrosive or slash procs to melt/ignore the armor.

If you can, based on the proposed update, name one good thing left about Mass Vitrify other than the ability to increase the damage of your 2, then I will try to keep an open mind about the nerf changes being made. Otherwise, I feel justified in calling this fiasco 'Gara-gate' and predicting massive outcry the moment it releases.

[Borg1611]

There is zero consistency in what they decide needs to be "balanced."

Permanent invisibility? Fine.

Nearly permanent invulnerability or automatic invulnerability procs? Fine.

Infinite scaling damage? Fine, at least for a handful of frames (including Gara).

Mass AoE CC that can be kept up indefinitely? Awesome! 

Covert lethality? Super! In fact, lets add a stance that opens things up to finishers in case you didn't want to play Equinox, Ivara, Inaros or Ash etc!

Up to four defensive spheres with no duration that block projectiles, slow everything inside and can be used to knockback anything that did get inside and can be temporarily invulnerable and stack up to 1m health? Yes!

Duration based invulnerable wall with no top that can be clunky and slow to place and somehow random mobs mysteriously manage to walk past it that you have to repeatedly destroy if you want to make use of your 2nd abilities damage? NERF IT!

I also have to assume anyone attempting to argue that Gara's wall was a better snowglobe simply has minimal experience with Frost and/or Gara as that is simply not true at all. Frost was still dramatically more useful on an interception than Gara. More consistent on excavation. Maybe about even on a defense. Gara was best for... sortie defense? Decent at other things, but she most certainly did not make frost irrelevant. Frost has an easier to use massive area CC and 4 deployable durationless globes. Gara's 2 is a powerful buff, but clunky and annoying to manage if you actually want to maintain it on your entire team throughout a mission. She has a single wall that takes longer to place and can be clunky to place due to the height mechanics. Gara is a stronger offensive frame on high level missions when avalanche damage becomes irrelevant, but defensive wise they both were better in different situations. Frost is actually a far better offensive frame on lower missions when Avalanche can still kill things as it can nuke a massive area. 

[HedrusPrime]

Gara was awesome.  Not overpowered.  Now she will be Frosts ugly sister no one will play with.  Really really sad.  It's not making the game more fun or adding interesting build options.  It's killing another great idea so we all will go back to Frost, Rhino or whatever golden cow has been in the game for a very long time.  Even if the power strength can be brought high enough to make her 4 viable it will relegate the Gara player to just jumping up and down casting her 4 over and over.  Really adding some serious "fun".  I loved the fact she wasn't like other frames especially in regards to building her kit.  There will literally be no reason to use her.  There are other frames that will do everything she has and better.  RIP Gara.  You were fun for a short time. 

 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

4 minutes ago, HedrusPrime said:

Gara was awesome.  Not overpowered

Lol. 

Why lie? She's already been nerfed and or won't be reverted. Might as well  be honest and admit she was extremely powerful and trivialized gameplay. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[HedrusPrime]

LOL yeah well I'm just going back to my frost that can freeze everything for over a minute because that isn't overpowered but a wall enemies can jump over is. 

[HedrusPrime]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

There is zero consistency in what they decide needs to be "balanced."

Permanent invisibility? Fine.

Nearly permanent invulnerability or automatic invulnerability procs? Fine.

Infinite scaling damage? Fine, at least for a handful of frames (including Gara).

Mass AoE CC that can be kept up indefinitely? Awesome! 

Covert lethality? Super! In fact, lets add a stance that opens things up to finishers in case you didn't want to play Equinox, Ivara, Inaros or Ash etc!

Up to four defensive spheres with no duration that block projectiles, slow everything inside and can be used to knockback anything that did get inside and can be temporarily invulnerable and stack up to 1m health? Yes!

Duration based invulnerable wall with no top that can be clunky and slow to place and somehow random mobs mysteriously manage to walk past it that you have to repeatedly destroy if you want to make use of your 2nd abilities damage? NERF IT!

I also have to assume anyone attempting to argue that Gara's wall was a better snowglobe simply has minimal experience with Frost and/or Gara as that is simply not true at all. Frost was still dramatically more useful on an interception than Gara. More consistent on excavation. Maybe about even on a defense. Gara was best for... sortie defense? Decent at other things, but she most certainly did not make frost irrelevant. Frost has an easier to use massive area CC and 4 deployable durationless globes. Gara's 2 is a powerful buff, but clunky and annoying to manage if you actually want to maintain it on your entire team throughout a mission. She has a single wall that takes longer to place and can be clunky to place due to the height mechanics. Gara is a stronger offensive frame on high level missions when avalanche damage becomes irrelevant, but defensive wise they both were better in different situations. Frost is actually a far better offensive frame on lower missions when Avalanche can still kill things as it can nuke a massive area. 

As a Frost main I completely agree.  Gara wasn't as good as Frost from day 1.  Now she will be like Rhino without his 4. There will be no place for her to shine.  She will be relegated to the same fate so many other new frames are in.  0 to no one using her because other frames are better at the same thing. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

17 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Honestly, it's about time Gara got a nerf. Her kit is absurd.

But we can keep the Atterax an MR 2 weapon?

We can keep Covert Lethality?

We can keep a stance that encourages the use of Covert Lethality?

We can keep Stasis the same?

But Mag still can't get a buff. And neither is Spectrorage.

[HedrusPrime]

I don't think people that are calling her kit absurd use the frames that are actually absurd.  They must be Volt mains or Mag etc..  And they must not do very much high end missions.  Especially solo.   Any warframe in the game that is viable in high level content makes low level content absurdly easy.  That's just how it is. 

[Ventura_Highway]

9 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

If you can, based on the proposed update, name one good thing left about Mass Vitrify other than the ability to increase the damage of your 2, then I will try to keep an open mind about the nerf changes being made. Otherwise, I feel justified in calling this fiasco 'Gara-gate' and predicting massive outcry the moment it releases.

I'll actually get my Gara out of the oven after the update but I'm really interested in how enemies will react to a hole being punched in the wall.

If they keep funneling into the inside through a single opening I'll probably end up using my Tigris or something to maul them en masse.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

20 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

You know what I'm talking about.

I am not going to sit here and call it a change, it is a straight-up nerf.

Gara's Mass Vitrify is now becoming health/armor based.

Can we start off with a no? No. This is unacceptable and unneeded. What is the purpose is of changing Gara's Mass Vitrify but not buffing Spectrorage? Let's take look at all the things that need changes.

• Mag's Polarize
• Mag's Crush
• 3/4 of Zephyr's abilities
• Volt in General
• Ember in General
• Peacemaker is apparently okay however.

And that was just a bit of the list.

Now you're just turning Gara into another mindless DPS Frame in which you only press 4 for more DPS. According to Aidan, the wall will break in fractions so expect Mass Vitrify to be behind you 90% of the time. And we still have Spectrorage, which has no scaling, so expect the same for MV. The entire cool part about Gara is that she was like the defensive version of Excalibur. Nope. Now she's just short-ranged Ember.

While you're at it DE, you'd might as well have Peacemaker double in energy for each person shot because why not?

This is why Gara needs more Nerfs xD

 

 

 

 

 

(I’m not serious)

[Ventura_Highway]

16 hours ago, peterc3 said:

I wonder why DE is so reticent in dealing with balance? The mind boggles.

I would regard it as a tactical advantage, working from a state of total mystery.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

5 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

But we can keep the Atterax an MR 2 weapon?

We can keep Covert Lethality?

We can keep a stance that encourages the use of Covert Lethality?

We can keep Stasis the same?

But Mag still can't get a buff. And neither is Spectrorage.

Initially I responded to each example but I realized that it doesn't really concern this.

Gara had high damage, infinite scaling, an invincible defense, a single skill that refreshed another skill for free (seriously wtf), 90% damage reduction, her own molecular prime...I mean c'mon now..

And I still don't understand what's wrong with Mag.

[Ecliptix]

16 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Then what is this game really? Its eerily similar to Vindictus (a mmo) in terms of how its handled and available content

Its not similar really in game play. Vindictus has I cant recall its been a while around 10 classes with generally standard MMO weaponry. Warframe has what 34 or so classes with prime versions of a bunch and 350+ non class specific weapons. It will have comparisons but its to me always been more of its own genre not really a game like CSGO not really an MMO but shares some aspects. I dont see the frames as classes as much as they are specialists many of them do similar things but in unique ways. 

I can see the MMO comparison but think there are more differences than similarities the game I used to compare to it was ME3 multiplayer. Given the limited skills each class has and the more specific nature of what each class does. I guess what I have liked about this game is it is relatively unique and has set itself apart from other genres and games incorporating aspects of other genres but not taking too much from anything specific. 

I get people dislike nerfs and attempted balances but it is the status quo of almost any online game things will change and not always for the side of fun, fun is too relative to individuals I think all they can hope for is making nothing to insanely powerful like mirage simulor. Same time its a free to play game with a lot of moving parts and the balancing act of every new mod and new frame and how they all affect each other seems really daunting. I dont think people are wrong to complain but some times it seems kinda of quick to judge and sling mud than anything.

[(PSN)psycofang]

12 minutes ago, Ecliptix said:

Its not similar really in game play.

No not in game play i ment in its cell frame. 4 player, procedurally generated areas with many areas of light congregation between players (town/relay/cetus) with characters that are limited in power variation but are altered by equipping sub weapons/mods/abyssal weaponry/arcanes whilst allowing for higher instances of players in raids 4-8/4-8, timed events, rare event rewards etc.

It all screams cell mmo to me is what i ment, i agree with the rest though.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Gara had high damage...

All of Gara's abilities do damage. Which are you talking about? And how is high damage a bad thing?

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Gara had infinite scaling...

So does Equinox, and it's much faster. Gara's is slower and 100 times more energy costly.

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Gara had an invincible defense...

With a duration. Same as Limbo.

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Gara had a single skill that refreshed another skill for free...

It's more energy costly to maintain Splinter Storm than it is to actually recast it. And it's with a payoff, which is a good example of actually well done synergy in Warframe abilities.

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

90% damage reduction...

How is this a bad thing?

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

...her own molecular prime...I mean c'mon now...

Except the crystallize buff isn't infinite like Molecular Prime.

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

And I still don't understand what's wrong with Mag.

It is just appalling looking at the fact that you seem to have been around Warframe for a while and not now what's wrong with Mag. Seriously, Mag is my favorite Frame, but half of her abilities just instantly fall of after Sortie I. And Crush is still just a stupid ability. And Magnetic damage is just terrible.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

On 12/4/2017 at 4:06 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Ember in General

Ummm... why... Ember is a monster for almost all content.  Her 1 ability is crap, Fireball, but it's a 1 ability to be expected.

World of Fire + Firequake = infinite CC and destruction of most enemies.  
Accelerant boosts WoF for the enemies who don't die easy.
Fire Blast ccs and deals high damage and leaves DoTs on the ground...

None of this is to mention Ember can use her weapons while her ULT is active, leading her to become one of the best frames out there imo.  Anything my Firequake CC's to the ground is quickly shot to bits.  With Primed Flow and Streamline my WoF lasts something like 8 minutes on one cast and full energy.   She honestly trivializes all content - so while you're complaining about nerfs, the only possible thing you could be asking for here is a nerf to her, because she's already great at combat, a buff would be unneeded in every way (though not unwelcome).    

Pretty sure Ember is fine how she is :|  I use her in sorties with great efficacy and realistically there's no higher level content than that to be doing.

Edited December 6, 2017 by (PS4)lagrue

[Marine027]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)lagrue:

Ummm... why... Ember is a monster for almost all content.  Her 1 ability is crap, Fireball, but it's a 1 ability to be expected.

World of Fire + Firequake = infinite CC and destruction of most enemies.  
Accelerant boosts WoF for the enemies who don't die easy.
Fire Blast ccs and deals high damage and leaves DoTs on the ground...

None of this  is to mention Ember can use her weapons while her ULT is active, leading her to become one of the best frames out there imo.  Anything my Firequake CC's to the ground is quickly shot to bits.  With Primed Flow and Streamline my WoF lasts something like 8 minutes on one cast and full energy.   She honestly trivializes all content - so while you're complaining about nerfs, the only possible thing you could be asking for here is a nerf to her, because she's already great at combat, a buff would be unneeded in every way (though not unwelcome).    

Pretty sure Ember is fine how she is :|  I use her in sorties with great efficacy and realistically there's no higher level content than that to be doing.

People usually only see her 4th as weak because they never synergize her other powers, like with most frames or wepaons, people relay only on one thing and scream aroudn if it not works overpowered, all becasue they are lazy in actually playing the game and use what the game offers.

Its not the games fault if people not make use of the other things, like health and energy pads, syndicat procs for energy or health, combining such instead of whining.

As example i have on my nova and nyx i use the sancti tigris, preferring it over the prime tigris even, all because it can keep me alive with its procs at times giving a health boost back.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2017. 12. 04. at 10:21 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Honestly, it's about time Gara got a nerf. Her kit is absurd.

Which part of her kit is absurd?

Her first is a non-scaling hit skill, pretty much useless when the armor starts to rank up.

Splinter storms is an okay defensive and attacking single target skill.

Spectroage is downright useless.

Mass vitrify's only bonus was that it was duration based, if it gets health it will be nothing more than a weaker version of the snowglobe.

 

Please point out which one of her skills was soo overpowered that it deserved a nerf.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

11 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Snip

If you can't see the overpowered qualities of mass vitrify alone then there's really no discussion to be had. 

Continue to state your case though.  I don't see how the nerf qualifies as absurd.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

10 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Ummm... why... Ember is a monster for almost all content.  Her 1 ability is crap, Fireball, but it's a 1 ability to be expected.

But Harrow, Nidus, Octavia, Mag, Nova, Nyx, Gara, Excalibur, and a ton of other Frames have a good first ability?

10 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

World of Fire + Firequake = infinite CC and destruction of most enemies.  

An augment shouldn't be needed to make a Frame good. That's terrible design.

10 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Accelerant boosts WoF for the enemies who don't die easy.

Tell that to a level 150 Bombard, lol.

10 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Fire Blast ccs and deals high damage and leaves DoTs on the ground...

High damage? No nonononono.

The Fire Rings only work on enemies you're directly next to also.

10 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

None of this is to mention Ember can use her weapons while her ULT is active, leading her to become one of the best frames out there imo.  Anything my Firequake CC's to the ground is quickly shot to bits.  With Primed Flow and Streamline my WoF lasts something like 8 minutes on one cast and full energy.   She honestly trivializes all content - so while you're complaining about nerfs, the only possible thing you could be asking for here is a nerf to her, because she's already great at combat, a buff would be unneeded in every way (though not unwelcome).   

I can name almost 20 Frames better than Ember before I name Ember, lol.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 12/4/2017 at 4:06 PM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Snip

I've just got to ask.

Now that the devs have provided reasoning for the Nerf, do you still think it's unjustified?

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I've just got to ask.

Now that the devs have provided reasoning for the Nerf, do you still think it's unjustified?

Hmm... could've sworn I said that the Gara changes are much better than before, but what reasoning did they give?

And they could still do much better.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 12/6/2017 at 8:00 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

...

An augment shouldn't be needed to make a Frame good. That's terrible design.

...

If Ember still had Overheat she would have never needed anything else. 

Or that WoF used to have a forced blast proc, before Augments, and hit more targets at the same time.

Ember does not need to be reverted back to Overheat days...and as stated below you would have had to slot the Abilities as Mods.

Why does an Augment currently considered a Mod, mean that the Frame is of Terrible Design.

What about when all abilities were Mods that you had to farm? Would only good frame designs at that time had been Frames that did not need Abilities or any Mods slotted to get the job done?

Not all mods are beneficial to all frames: Much like Redirection and Fast Recharge being useless on Nidus and Inaros. Does this mean they are of bad frame design because some of the standard mods don't work on them.

 

I understand some why the Gara change was being implemented. (Basically the same change Frost Snowglobe Received, it used to be invincible but duration based and that was not fun for me.)*

At the same time I agree there were other frames/abilities that seemed like they needed a higher priority on being addressed. I assume all in due time.

Some frames seem borderline OP now and they don't have Augments: One can only imagine if Octavia received an Armor removing Augment for Resonator. (Which would mean mobile Mallet.would have armor reduction)