An attempt at a construtive talk about limbo

[Faulcun]

Let me begin by saying that everybody has the right to play this game however they want to. I dont think anybody has the right to tell anybody else how they should play or what they should do differently. If a player wants to be all meta and min/max one power into god mode and the rest into garbage... go for it. If a player wants to be completely opposite and strangle every grineer with their bare hands.... go for it!

Im sure we can all agree on that right?

Theres been a number of trolling behavior over the years with different frame abilities like switch teleport, rip line, banish, etc etc. I find that those abilities are all small scale and can be dealt with relatively easily. If you get banished, you simply roll out of it and move on. No big deal. If you continue to get banished, then you know you are dealing with a troll and that person is deliberately trying to ruin your day. In those situations, I dont think you can blame the frame or its abilities because people with bad intentions are going to find a way no matter what.

My problem with limbo is with stasis. Staying in line with my first paragraph, I think every limbo player should be able to play however they want, and nobody should be able to tell them different. The issue with this is that stasis forces EVERYBODY else on the team to play by limbo's rules.

Ive been seeing this pretty regular on sortie mobile defense missions now. So ill try to cover the more common responses I see to this.

•  you can play outside the rift. I do make the effort to enjoy myself outside of the rift. However, ive seen some limbos come in with max range that causes cataclysm to cover the entire room and beyond. So the choice is stand inside the rift and wait for the timer to count down, or leave the entire room altogether in some cases. At that point you are playing the mission without even being in the same room as the objective. Seems kinda silly right?
•  you can spam ammo until stasis pops. You'll spend more time and ammo trying to fight stasis than its worth. This also breeds conflict among players. The limbo player becomes confrontational, and both parties attempt to assert how they want to play the game.
• you can ask the limbo player to not do what they are doing. Again, this can become confrontational where two parties are attempting to assert how the game should be played.
• You can form organized groups/solo/uninstall the game. I have no problem doing this, however I like to help random people through missions like sorties. There are many out there who cannot complete them otherwise without assistance in the first place. On top of that, if the ultimate answer is to make a pre-formed group or play solo because of ONE ability.... perhaps it should be looked at?
• You can leave the group. Again, same as above, if one ability alone is so bad as to cause players like myself to even consider leaving before the mission even starts.... isnt that reason enough to take another look at it?

TLDR: In all situations, both players are in the right. The limbo player should be allowed to play how they want, and the other players shouldnt be forced to play the way limbo wants. Its like coming to a traffic light where every direction is green. Technically everybody has the right of way, but it causes accidents, confrontation, and hostile situations. This means the ability is broken and needs to be looked at again.

 

[Vicsvinny]

Honestly, Limbo doesn't bother me all that much. I don't play as him 1: Because i'm just bad and 2: I'm scared of all the negativity surrounding him.

I agree that everyone should be able to play the game as they want, and sadly that includes trolling behaviour. But that's what happens in online games.

Maybe I've just been put with good Limbo players. Who knows. But this hate-train is really overdue for a docking.

7 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

TLDR: In all situations, both players are in the right. The limbo player should be allowed to play how they want, and the other players shouldnt be forced to play the way limbo wants. Its like coming to a traffic light where every direction is green. Technically everybody has the right of way, but it causes accidents, confrontation, and hostile situations. This means the ability is broken and needs to be looked at again.

If Stasis is reworked, I believe there will be a lot more happy people in the community.

[Xardis]

The problem lies with stasis itself. DE should change it so stasis precalculates bullet damage and shows if the target will die if you shoot certain ammount. Baisicly delete the funcsion of stopping projectiles from statis. It breeds conflicts and hides the basic info it the target is dead.

And to those that will tell me - it would be too op, nope, look at excal, rad loki, valkyr and many other frames that can cc enemies hard. Limbo having the drawback of needlesly complicated, aspecialy on a frame with rift mechanic.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Xardis

[_Vortus_]

It's been discussed and cussed.  Until the issue with Stasis is changed so it doesn't interrupt other players so badly, it cannot be fixed.  Is there a way to fix it without a full rework, I doubt it.   Currently, for me anyway, my solution is fine, see Limbo in mission, leave for another.

 

[Acersecomic]

I'll make this simple. The problem with Limbo is not Limbo's abilities (it's the abilities), it's for what those players use his abilities.
Limbo is the ultimate troll frame that requires no accuracy or anything.

Switch teleport is often comical for everyone involved and can't really be used effectively for trolling, more like a joke. Also, in nearly 2 years, nearly 400 login days, over 1000 gametime, I could count the times I was actually teleported by Loki on the fingers of one hand! And it didn't feel like trolling.

Valkyr I have never been trolled by or even shot a line at. EVER.

Vaubans can be a bit silly with the bounce pad more because it feels like an insult, but that happened in like... three missions out of you can guess how many in over 1000 play hours.

Limbo however... 99% of times there's a Limbo in squad. And I'm not pulling this out of my &#!. I'm saying 99% because the amount of times I've ran into a cooperative, considerate, tactical Limbo is so tiny, that I can call it 1%.

Limbo is a troll frame because his abilities allow is to be super easy and no one can do anything about it. I've spent the entire matches rolling around because a Limbo kept banishing me. Whole matches not being able to shoot because Limbo used Cataclysm. Whole rounds of Limbo spamming Cataclysm ON and OFF like some seasure...

EVERY! mission I get into for a long time now that I see Limbo in, I quit. I don't care, I won't give them the chance to be nice or anything. Quit. I will not allow Limbo's in my squad that are not a part of a premade strategy for something that involves Limbo, and I will not tolerage being in the same squad as Limbo.  I will quit every one of those missions.

P.S. Good luck keeping this topic on rails. You called it good by saying "an attempt".

[(XBOX)dude1286]

As someone who enjoys using Cataclysm + Stasis and doesn't mind it when another Limbo does, I just wish the edges of Cataclysm worked differently. Enemies shouldn't immediately be entered into the rift when they hit the edge, but when they touch an inner edge that allows them to be inside the bubble longer, and should be removed from the rift when most of their hit box is no longer in the bubble.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

21 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

It's been discussed and cussed.  Until the issue with Stasis is changed so it doesn't interrupt other players so badly, it cannot be fixed.  Is there a way to fix it without a full rework, I doubt it.   Currently, for me anyway, my solution is fine, see Limbo in mission, leave for another.

 

It's really quite simple... make Stasis only affect Limbo and enemy projectiles - not the rest of the squad.  This small change would alleviate 99% of the complaints about stasis while preserving most of the power with little to no change.

Can't speak much for his other abilities, as much as I don't like being in the Rift, atleast I can do something about that and leave.

If I fire off 300 bullets to end Stasis I get accused of hindering my team.  Realistically though gunplay makes missions go by x5 faster than everybody running around with melee - and let's face it - the invulnerability of having stasis up is only useful in level 100 sorties at best... never once have I needed full invulnerability from enemy projectiles to the point where I would actually genuinely not want access to my guns.  I put efficient killing over survivability any day - and realistically if you aren't standing still, you shouldn't be taking buttonnes of projectile damage anyway.  I don't like how Limbo is a serious time waster and slows combat to a roll - while stripping away an entire method of combat from other players.

The absolute worst thing is when Limbos, for no reason at all, pop Stasis during infested missions... it's literally nothing but a troll, doesn't provide any benefit to the team - and in fact makes the squad at peril by forcing them to engage toxic enemies head on with melee, leading to ridiculous status DoT.  Those are the Limbos who are simply out to ruin other players' experiences, or are too stupid to see how they're negatively impacting the squad.  

Edited December 18, 2017 by (PS4)lagrue

[Demonreaper.]

I like using limbo a lot. Really good for playing solo and for facing enemies way above the level of what your weapons are normally capable of handling. I don't care if banish is changed or removed, never use it. Banish seems to be the ability that is being used for trolling. stasis/cataclysm on the other hand a form of playing the game. I do not think this should change in the main thing it does. That is to make enemies in the rift be frozen. The fact that bullets get frozen as well doesn't need to happen, and is actually a bit bugged that when an enemy fires just as it enters the void, the bullets don't get frozen all the time. I would be happy to have bullets be able to move in stasis, whether it is from ally or enemy. It does then allow for a bit more diversity in gameplay when using limbo. It allows limbo players to play how they want without it impeding on other peoples way of playing.

 

7 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

The absolute worst thing is when Limbos, for no reason at all, pop Stasis during infested missions... it's literally nothing but a troll, doesn't provide any benefit to the team - and in fact makes the squad at peril by forcing them to engage toxic enemies head on with melee, leading to ridiculous status DoT.  Those are the Limbos who are simply out to ruin other players' experiences, or are too stupid to see how they're negatively impacting the squad.  

I am someone who uses stasis on infested missions. Reason, get swarmed and die if my weapons aren't killing fast enough. I do however go into infested missions with rejuvenation. This counteracts the toxic damage you take, stopping the case where you are at peril for meleeing them. 

[nickelshark]

Stasis is my biggest gripe with limbo. Rift doesn't bother me much since I can leave it whenever, but with cataclysm and stasis, that effectively either forces me to use melee, or forces me to not play in an entire area. Especially if I want to use guns or certain builds like masochist Trinity.

I think the simple solution suggested above would be best. Just have stasis not effect allies.

Stasis is certainly useful, but can be incredibly disruptive and intrusive to others play style.

Edited December 19, 2017 by nickelshark

[DarkFlameZealot]

The only usefulness I see in Limbo existing in my inventory is my completionist sense for (and only for) Warframes alongside the cheese factor for any kind of 3-headshot aimglide riven mess that I'm honestly too bored and fed up with trying to do it normally (headshot box bugs and all that crap). He's really a worthless frame with a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling that, honestly, only maybe 5% of the populace playing Warframe has reached.

 

1) Too many incompetent players trying to cheese everything or make it seem like they're doing 'good' when they're just in the way: i.e- rolling right in front of someone using WoF or another cc that is now worthless cause you're banished and have to waste more key presses to simply even get out of the rift to do your job.

2) Laziness in general- Heard of Rhino? Yeah, new players press iron skin and think they're invincible, then get to end game and whine cause they die when it runs out. Limbo's simple roll/shoulder-slide into the rift to become invincible makes players not even bother to help or try to utilize him in a team squad.

 

Limbo is a purely solo frame for the reasons above, and why unless you know exactly how he fits into the lineup for whatever you're doing, don't even bother playing him past lvl 30 for mastery. It takes a damn long time to figure out how to play Limbo without ruining the game for everyone else. I would rather have one or two purely afk players that leech than one limbo that makes it impossible to play the game at all, and I think many of us would agree with me on that.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

25 minutes ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

The only usefulness I see in Limbo existing in my inventory is my completionist sense for (and only for) Warframes alongside the cheese factor for any kind of 3-headshot aimglide riven mess that I'm honestly too bored and fed up with trying to do it normally (headshot box bugs and all that crap). He's really a worthless frame with a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling that, honestly, only maybe 5% of the populace playing Warframe has reached.

 

1) Too many incompetent players trying to cheese everything or make it seem like they're doing 'good' when they're just in the way: i.e- rolling right in front of someone using WoF or another cc that is now worthless cause you're banished and have to waste more key presses to simply even get out of the rift to do your job.

2) Laziness in general- Heard of Rhino? Yeah, new players press iron skin and think they're invincible, then get to end game and whine cause they die when it runs out. Limbo's simple roll/shoulder-slide into the rift to become invincible makes players not even bother to help or try to utilize him in a team squad.

 

Limbo is a purely solo frame for the reasons above, and why unless you know exactly how he fits into the lineup for whatever you're doing, don't even bother playing him past lvl 30 for mastery. It takes a damn long time to figure out how to play Limbo without ruining the game for everyone else. I would rather have one or two purely afk players that leech than one limbo that makes it impossible to play the game at all, and I think many of us would agree with me on that.

Not to detract from your other valid statements but with regards to point 1 in your post why would you need to roll in that situation? Warframe abilities work regardless of rift status so unless it's a cc using a weapon it's not being hindered.

[DarkFlameZealot]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Ubern00ber88 said:

Not to detract from your other valid statements but with regards to point 1 in your post why would you need to roll in that situation? Warframe abilities work regardless of rift status so unless it's a cc using a weapon it's not being hindered.

Warframe abilities still work, but with regards to how you actually play many frames, you want to be able to deal damage not only with abilities but also with your weapons themselves. Rolling is the only way to get out of Limbo's dash-rift thing other than waiting an eternity for it to end. WoF was the only 'lazy generic warframe meta player' ability/frame I could bring up and everyone would get right off the bat.

 

But regardless of the ability interaction, many players can be sent to the rift unawares in the middle of combat. This results in wasted ammo and frustration for many, similarly to how Nekros' shadows, with the right color energy, look exactly like actual enemies. If I end up wasting a whole clip due to stuff like this, I often just sit down and wait for the mission to end. It is probably the most annoying frame in existence due to the amount of easy trolling that happens all the time. Hell, I was playing fastva on Hydron with a limbo who would purposely roll in front of me to send me into the rift when I had used my 2, making it so that I couldn't even damage my orb to use as a dps (requires weapon/enemy dmg to work at all).

 

I don't usually run frames that rely on heavy ability usage like Ember unless it's a fissure (Mirage prime time bois ^w^ ) or an invasion for forma/exilus adapters, so I don't exactly know how Limbo's rift works with them, but I see your point now that I looked it up. 

[Ajwf]

So beautiful exaggerations aside from some above posters, my god you guys talk about Limbo like relatives talk about politics. 

1st, of course Limbo's going to spend a good bit of time in the rift. Duh? He's among the squishiest frames in the game, and his rift gives him a sort of invincibility and energy regen. You can't mod to salvage 15 armor. 

 

51 minutes ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

2) Laziness in general- Heard of Rhino? Yeah, new players press iron skin and think they're invincible, then get to end game and whine cause they die when it runs out. Limbo's simple roll/shoulder-slide into the rift to become invincible makes players not even bother to help or try to utilize him in a team squad.

2nd, Laziness in general. You're still using an anecdote about Limbo ruining the time of someone using the laziest POS ability in the game. The fact that Limbo can revive from the rift or cast his cataclysm from the rift, or DRAW AGRO while invincible means there's.. well, a few ways to use him there. This argument is a double speak specifically, because you claim that you'd rather have leeches (2 even!) than a limbo screwing everything up.... Which, Limbo just sitting in the rift is a leech. So obviously this isn't your issue with him.

1 hour ago, nickelshark said:

Stasis is my biggest gripe with limbo. Rift doesn't bother me much since I can leave it whenever, but with cataclysm and stasis, that effectively either forces me to use melee, or forces me to not play in an entire area. Especially if I want to use guns or certain builds like masochist Trinity.

I think the simple solution suggested above would be best. Just have stasis not effect allies.

Stasis is certainly useful, but can be incredibly disruptive and intrusive to others play style.

3rd. Stasis. Yeah it's an issue in pubs, and you can tell DE's choice was to allow melees to counteract this issue of teammates not doing damage. There's also no eloquent way to fix it because even the suggestion of allowing teammates to kill through it makes Limbo more or less a support frame/defensive Frost equivalent instead of what he's supposed to be, an isolation assassin/mage. Make the change suggested and all of the sudden Limbo just starts building power range/duration, stunning everything and letting his team get all the kills. That's insanely dangerous as a concept because you can, as you've pointed out, rift an entire room. It trivializes the game as much as Ember and Banshee do.  

Stasis is always the problem ability for Limbo. Like people complain about cataclysm but promptly beg for a frost to exist whenever they have to defend literally anything. Besides range, Cataclysm and Frost's bubble are very similar. Difference being, enemies inside a Frost bubble can still attack an objective and cataclysm has no slow. You can't fire in from the outside against either. And the range of cataclysm makes it easier to play around, being large enough to comfortably have space between you and your target while skirting the edge. 

The thing is, Limbo is really far from useless, and is probably the most versatile team frame in the game. Maybe that's not good, since I believe he's supposed to be a functional assassin and not cheese his way through being a team-focused frame. One of the best things you can do in level 100 sorties or Kuva floods is go into the stasis and agro the enemies in a room before your teammates enter, allowing them to go about their life without coming under fire.

There are two issues we run into, the first being stasis having no good way to work without communication. The second is an ignorance, whether intentional or unintentional, on how Limbo works from both players of Limbo but also players with him. Does he require more knowledge to play with than any other frames in general? Yes. But any other frame?  No, have you played with a Harrow recently? But Harrow gets a pass because instead of him frustrating you, everyone on his team frustrates him when he's trying to support. And that's 'fine' to a lot of players where it shouldn't be, especially if their stance is 'leave the game if there's a limbo'. Maybe update visual clarity, have more detailed descriptions of his abilities, but there really just isn't a good reason to start taking away pieces of his kit because people's eyes go red with rage just seeing his name. 

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

2 hours ago, Demonreaper. said:

I am someone who uses stasis on infested missions. Reason, get swarmed and die if my weapons aren't killing fast enough. I do however go into infested missions with rejuvenation. This counteracts the toxic damage you take, stopping the case where you are at peril for meleeing them. 

Your rejuvenation isn't going to stop a x8 stack of toxic from chewing through people's health.  If you pop stasis in infested missions you are literally hurting everybody but yourself (and even then you are hurting yourself). 

Very rare I see anybody using that mod - the problem with stasis users is that they expect other people to build themselves around the potential of having stasis activated.  I've also seen people suggest I use daggers and covert lethality to deal with the issue  - it's always everybody else's fault and not the crappy power that could easily be fixed.

I really can't comprehend how stopping your own projectiles helps you at all - especially when the Infested have no projectiles to shoot back.  You're only stopping yourself and teammates... nothing else.   

Edited December 19, 2017 by (PS4)lagrue

[Demonreaper.]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Your rejuvenation isn't going to stop a x8 stack of toxic from chewing through people's health.  If you pop stasis in infested missions you are literally hurting everybody but yourself (and even then you are hurting yourself). 

Very rare I see anybody using that mod - the problem with stasis users is that they expect other people to build themselves around the potential of having stasis activated.  I've also seen people suggest I use daggers and covert lethality to deal with the issue  - it's always everybody else's fault and not the crappy power that could easily be fixed.

I really can't comprehend how stopping your own projectiles helps you at all - especially when the Infested have no projectiles to shoot back.  You're only stopping yourself and teammates... nothing else.   

I agree with there being no reason to stop projectiles, I would like that gone myself as well. I use it to stop enemies moving in an area while keeping projectiles shot outside that area from hitting. Hence, my use is irrelevant to whether it is used on infested or anything else.

Haven't been up to the point yet where i am facing that level of toxic. When i do get up to that point, i would pop stasis at the best opportunity so that the toxic enemy could be killed. That is if i am still using limbo at that point. If other players are dieing when stasis ends, what difference does it make whether they are fighting with or without it existing. If they are getting hurt by stasis being popped, then that suggests they are relying on it being there in the first place, which then means that they would be wanting limbo and stasis to be there because they can't cope without it.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

2 hours ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

Warframe abilities still work, but with regards to how you actually play many frames, you want to be able to deal damage not only with abilities but also with your weapons themselves. Rolling is the only way to get out of Limbo's dash-rift thing other than waiting an eternity for it to end. WoF was the only 'lazy generic warframe meta player' ability/frame I could bring up and everyone would get right off the bat.

 

But regardless of the ability interaction, many players can be sent to the rift unawares in the middle of combat. This results in wasted ammo and frustration for many, similarly to how Nekros' shadows, with the right color energy, look exactly like actual enemies. If I end up wasting a whole clip due to stuff like this, I often just sit down and wait for the mission to end. It is probably the most annoying frame in existence due to the amount of easy trolling that happens all the time. Hell, I was playing fastva on Hydron with a limbo who would purposely roll in front of me to send me into the rift when I had used my 2, making it so that I couldn't even damage my orb to use as a dps (requires weapon/enemy dmg to work at all).

 

I don't usually run frames that rely on heavy ability usage like Ember unless it's a fissure (Mirage prime time bois ^w^ ) or an invasion for forma/exilus adapters, so I don't exactly know how Limbo's rift works with them, but I see your point now that I looked it up. 

As someone who has come to use Growing Power more and more I definitely understand the interplay of gunplay with frames and their powers.

As for how the rift works without powers I know one of the most broken things to do is use Exalted Weapons in the rift as they count as powers and not actual weapons.

I don't think Limbo is a bad frame myself but I do recognize the insane amount of trolling potential in how his abilities operate. If they would remove rifting teammates (something I don't think is a great idea but would help placate animosity) and remove stasis affecting teammates then I believe most hate for him would dissipate.

[TaylorsContraction]

7 hours ago, nickelshark said:

Stasis is my biggest gripe with limbo. Rift doesn't bother me much since I can leave it whenever, but with cataclysm and stasis, that effectively either forces me to use melee, or forces me to not play in an entire area. Especially if I want to use guns or certain builds like masochist Trinity.

I think the simple solution suggested above would be best. Just have stasis not effect allies.

Stasis is certainly useful, but can be incredibly disruptive and intrusive to others play style.

Pretty much this. Melee is boring for me personally. It's op, requires no skill, no aim, melee is just aoe brainless gameplay. I like guns, I like shooting guns, the sound and visual effects. I like aiming and trying to get head shots all the while intertwining abilities into the mix. I know some people enjoy melee a they like seeing the big red crits and roflstompping the enemies, but limbo take that choice away from players.

[LuinCeltchar]

 

17 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Ive been seeing this pretty regular on sortie mobile defense missions now. So ill try to cover the more common responses I see to this.

•  you can play outside the rift. I do make the effort to enjoy myself outside of the rift. However, ive seen some limbos come in with max range that causes cataclysm to cover the entire room and beyond. So the choice is stand inside the rift and wait for the timer to count down, or leave the entire room altogether in some cases. At that point you are playing the mission without even being in the same room as the objective. Seems kinda silly right?
• You can form organized groups/solo/uninstall the game. I have no problem doing this, however I like to help random people through missions like sorties. There are many out there who cannot complete them otherwise without assistance in the first place. On top of that, if the ultimate answer is to make a pre-formed group or play solo because of ONE ability.... perhaps it should be looked at?
• You can leave the group. Again, same as above, if one ability alone is so bad as to cause players like myself to even consider leaving before the mission even starts.... isnt that reason enough to take another look at it?

TLDR: In all situations, both players are in the right. The limbo player should be allowed to play how they want, and the other players shouldnt be forced to play the way limbo wants. Its like coming to a traffic light where every direction is green. Technically everybody has the right of way, but it causes accidents, confrontation, and hostile situations. This means the ability is broken and needs to be looked at again.

 

1. No it's not silly. It's silly for you to be annoyed that another player is preventing the objective taking damage. If you really want to get kills, which is not the objective of Mobile Defense, then going somewhere else to pretend you're in an Exterminate mission is a fair request.

2. The Limbo player keeping the objective safe from damage is doing more to help than you would be, so there's no need to worry about helping a squad with a Limbo. If your ego needs you to feel like you've contributed and solo-carried 'lesser' players then leave and join a different squad.

3. The ability isn't the issue, your attitude is. Me? I don't like playing Exterminate missions with Embers because it reduces the mission to running through an empty map. But... I recognise that it's one of the most efficient ways to complete that mission and so people are going to use it. I'm the problem here, so instead of whining for a WoF nerf/rework, I put up with it for the few minutes it takes to complete the mission.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Limbo's ability should be changed to not interfere with teammates, 
like how Stasis would stop an arrow from impaling an enemy is actually helping the enemy and interrupting teammate's effort towards killing.
So is Banish and Cataclysm. 

I mean if we give limbo more abilities to sabotage the team he should be on the enemy's team and not with the players.

It is very hard to play a limbo properly, because his skills will certainly interrupt other players one way or another.

He is suppose to help the team out, not help the enemies.

7 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

I really can't comprehend how stopping your own projectiles helps you at all - especially when the Infested have no projectiles to shoot back.  You're only stopping yourself and teammates... nothing else.   

This actually is the frustration of people having to work with limbo in the team

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Snib]

Frankly a Limbo isn't much worse than any other "defensive" frame thinking they have a role to play when all they do is slow your game down. Nobody needs a limbo to defend anything, nor a Frost spamming globes that you can't shoot through, or even something like a max range chaos Nyx/bastille Vauban/Gara/Slova in defense preventing the enemies from running to their slaughter, among other things. They are all disruptive to your game play in one way or another. I leave groups for all of them.

Limbo just stands out because there's just no legitimate reason to ever bring that frame into a random team (and even his use in premades is extremely limited, it's mostly a frame to afk-cheese certain mission types), so if someone does it regardless they're either a total newbie or a deliberate troll, and the end result is likely the same.

 

[VampirePirate]

^

"...they're either a total newbie or a deliberate troll..."

 

Overall, it's hard to tell if the problem lies within the warframe(s) or the attitude of the player(s).

 

The only constant I see is DE remaining content with inventing powers that interfere with other players.  It's not as if they are unaware of the outcomes.  It feels more like they don't care and therefore will continue this madness.   It may even be safe to say that they enjoy the result of torture and confusion it brings, because they obviously have not done anything to rectify it all.

[Snib]

5 minutes ago, VampirePirate said:

The only constant I see is DE remaining content with inventing powers that interfere with other players.  It's not as if they are unaware of the outcomes.  It feels more like they don't care and therefore will continue this madness.   It may even be safe to say that they enjoy the result of torture and confusion it brings, because they obviously have not done anything to rectify it all.

Well, the frame is probably the strongest for cheesing or outright afk'ing certain mission types solo, even more so since the rework than before (i.e. before we had stasis, when rift walk still had a duration and when you could still banish while rift walking). I can only assume they wanted this option to be available for players because literally nothing in Limbo's kit except the Haven augment says team play. 

I don't think it's a big problem that needs to be addressed though. Unless you are OCD about your mission abortion stat then just find a new team when you end up in one that plays in a way that's no fun to you.

[Helaton]

I play limbo a different way, as more of an assassin frame.  I don't find a good use for stasis or rift surge (takes time to setup for any real effect) most of the time, so I like to pop in and out of the rift a lot to get out of tough situations or group enemies up safely.

His abilities?

Banish: Single target banish used on the move, but hold banish and you can banish/unbanish groups while stationery.

Stasis: Make this a single target ability and cheaper. Anything within 0.5m of the target is frozen (increase with range). Run up, shoot lots of bullets if you want, they will freeze within 0.5m of the target and then unleash when it wears off for good fun.  Cast on an ally and freeze all incoming bullets around them (but they can still move and try to get out of the way of the incoming fire).

Rift Surge: This should really be changed. Only thing I use it for is the augment damage bonus. Banishing should be precise, and this makes fights chaotic with who's in the rift, who's not in it.

Cataclysm: Energy regen is good, revive is good, bubble is very visible which is good.  I do like cataclysm as it defines the boundaries of where things are happening and you can measure effects.

 

My other issue with the rift. The visibility of anyone affected by the rift. Some color combinations are rough and it is hard to tell.  Make them ghostly/half visible, or have an energy projection/ball above them to indicate rift energy.

Also indicator when you are in the rift yourself is weak. Just make it pure monochrome when you are in the rift and full color when you are out. Make it simpler to understand for teammates and limbos.

 

My absolute favorite uses for Limbo: Sortie rescue missions, Defense/target, Excavator and Defection missions. 

Rescue: Send a lokie in to hack, stay in the rift.  When the rescue hostage is out, banish everyone and run to the exit.  No chance to kill the hostage or need to do anything.  Limbo is to a rescue what Ivara is to Spy.

Defense/target: Banish the VIP.  You win after that and everyone can do what they want.

Defections: Banish the crew.

Excavator: A limbo can hold their own excavator and safely get to the next one. Makes it easy to do 2 or more at the same time depending on how many limbos you have (one time where multiple limbos is good).

[Snib]

2 hours ago, Helaton said:

I play limbo a different way, as more of an assassin frame. 

[...]

I don't know if you still know Limbo from before the rework but that's basically what he was, he could pull enemies into the rift with him (while already rift walking) and rift surge would give a significant damage bonus (no augment required), perfect for e.g. pulling those bombards out of your team's plane of existence and murdering them in the rift.

I enjoyed the old Limbo more than the current one, although the current one is objectively much stronger.

 

[Faulcun]

6 hours ago, LuinCeltchar said:

 

1. No it's not silly. It's silly for you to be annoyed that another player is preventing the objective taking damage. If you really want to get kills, which is not the objective of Mobile Defense, then going somewhere else to pretend you're in an Exterminate mission is a fair request.

2. The Limbo player keeping the objective safe from damage is doing more to help than you would be, so there's no need to worry about helping a squad with a Limbo. If your ego needs you to feel like you've contributed and solo-carried 'lesser' players then leave and join a different squad.

3. The ability isn't the issue, your attitude is. Me? I don't like playing Exterminate missions with Embers because it reduces the mission to running through an empty map. But... I recognise that it's one of the most efficient ways to complete that mission and so people are going to use it. I'm the problem here, so instead of whining for a WoF nerf/rework, I put up with it for the few minutes it takes to complete the mission.

You are putting words in my mouth to create an argument that doesnt exist.

I said nothing about preventing the objective from taking damage, or the effectiveness of any ability. I also never said anything about getting kills either.

What if I started the mission with only pistols and a limbo joined after the mission started? Nobody has the right to tell me to bring a full loadout if im perfectly capable of doing the mission with a single weapon solo, let alone with other players. In the same way, I have no right to tell a limbo how he should or shouldnt play.

WOF falls off at high level anyways. If you are playing a mission with content at a level that matches your loadout, WOF isnt even an issue anymore. WOF empty maps are only a concern at low level content.

The problem supersedes both players because limbo's ability forces other players to play the way limbo wants to play. In my scenario with the pistols, I dont have a choice but to stand around and wait for a timer.  What if i brought them because I wanted to level them? In either case, I dont have a choice but to do things the way limbo wants to do them.

It doesnt matter how efficient the ability is. If a single player has the ability to stroll into a mission and effectively say "we're going to do this my way", thats wrong, and needs to be changed.

Therefore, the ability IS the problem. Your argument ultimately is "its more efficient than what you were going to do, so you should put up with it if another player forces it upon you". Essentially, you are telling everybody else how to play the game and to value efficiency over gameplay. YOUR attitude is the problem here.