The upcoming IPS changes..

[Lion]

We NEED to be more vocal about this. If this goes through, there's a good chance it'll either;

A. Be left untouched for years

B. Replaced with something even worse.

 

We have to be writing the Devs on this, posting on the forums, Reddit, Twitter, you name it. We have to make sure DE understands how big of a blunder this will be for balance as a whole. This does nothing to create build diversity, in fact it PUNISHES you for using a balanced IPS weapon as opposed to something with 80-95% slash like Tigris Prime or Galatine Prime.

Melee weapons with forced slash combos and no base slash damage will be nerfed massively because of this. Hunter Munitions, a mod that just brought crit weapons more in line with status, will be all but dead on weapons with little to no slash (like Arca Plasmor.)

 

On top of that, slash as a whole will be much weaker.

Moving on from slash, Puncture is still meh. Dead enemies do 0% damage, so damage reduction of a single enemy isn't very useful.

Impact is going to be VERY ANNOYING. A ragdolling body is an inherently harder to hit target. Sorta like trying to shoot a target trapped inside a Zephyr tornado, it's a pain.

 

Here are some suggestions:

Impact should retain its stagger, to knockdown an already staggered target and even disarm depending on the severity of the hit. It should also be able to partially bypass shields.

This change puts impact in a rather respectable position. Remember how I said 'Dead enemies do 0% damage"? Well, disarmed enemies also can't shoot you.

Puncture procs should allow for your bullets to temporarily (5-10 seconds) partially bypass armor (Not as a damage over time like slash does, but rather a passive per-bullet armor ignore of something like 30-35% total of your damage.) This would make Puncture on par with Slash, possibly even giving it a slight edge.

Slash truly is fine where it is. It is the other damage types that are lacking. DE, nerfing slash to their level is not the answer.

 

On a side note, DE, if you really plan to push forward damage 2.5 as is, then this is at least a good opportunity to introduce Damage Type Conversion mods (converts 100% of impact damage to slash etc) to allow us further to specialize into damage types. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Valor

[o.0-]

Well, I think that Status Effects should become independent from Damage (so no longer have a one to one relationship) and that available Status Effects would depend more on the affected Health types.

That way, we can select how we build our weapons (damage conversion mods would be welcom), and when enemies get their time in the sun, they could see some tweaks as needed, as there are Bosses and certain enemies that are already resistant to certain Status Effects anyway.

[GinKenshin]

funny thing is...they're releasing this days before christmas (I don't think it's after since it's between xmas and new year, none will work in this time, I think?)....you basically have no to little time to do any changes or read feedback.....we'd have to live through this until early next year 

just postpone khora, it's not worth it. stop having these 'we're DE and we can do it!' moments, it never works out as intended and there's a lot of examples about that. just take your time, don't rush these, khora can wait till next year

[taiiat]

there's a Thread you should be giving your feedback in. posting it elsewhere actually makes it have less impact, because it'll probably not be read by those it matters to inside Digital Extremes.

this is like posting random Threads outside of a Megathread - posting other than where you're supposed to is just a waste of your time.

12 minutes ago, Valor said:

Hunter Munitions, a mod that just brought crit weapons more in line with status

Slash truly is fine where it is.

you're kidding, right? Hunter Munitions currently makes Slash Weapons obsolete, as Crit Weapons do their job for them. sometimes do it better.
besides, Critting Status has always been the ultimate anyways, anyone saying otherwise shouldn't be making statements about Game Balance in Warframe, they're still learning the basics.

again, surely you jest. Slash Status bypasses the entirely of Damage 2.0.
which has fairly good depth, that is ruined by a couple bad apples that allow Players to ignore the entire Damage System.

Edited December 19, 2017 by taiiat

[dreadgame]

I'm gonna miss my jat kusar slash procs, probably.

[IggySnow]

unfortunatly at this point im expecting this to go through and have nothing changed afterwards.

every update before Christmas gets released and then gets left untouched as everyone in DE comes back from holidays excited to work on the new things.

[Mintaro]

Ima wait for changes and test how these new ips will work both weapons and warframes then make my complaints. I have concerns yes but nothing has been said about forced procs and how they will work.

[Emolition]

I like the damage reduction for puncture just wish it had been scaled up to 90% as they talked about in dev stream 100 I think it was.  Just use stuff that hit more then 1 target and make alot of them do reduced damage and you can make it easier for squisher team mates to stay alive (not using trinity blessing).

[GinKenshin]

15 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

unfortunatly at this point im expecting this to go through and have nothing changed afterwards.

every update before Christmas gets released and then gets left untouched as everyone in DE comes back from holidays excited to work on the new things.

focus and everything with TWW are prime examples of this tbh

[rushari]

Current system is broken. Old system was broken. The new systems also looks broken. So no need to worry. Nothing will change. 

[Jeoxz]

1. Let's play it first.

2. It goes live during holidays. Then the feedback changes will be active next year a.k.a. they are giving us extra time to input feeback before making any big modification.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

1 hour ago, Valor said:

On a side note, DE, if you really plan to push forward damage 2.5 as is, then this is at least a good opportunity to introduce Damage Type Conversion mods (-100% impact +100% slash etc) to allow us further to specialize into damage types.

I know what you mean, but as-worded, this would turn a Galatine from 4.1/4.1/156.8 to 0/4.1/313.6.  You would need a wordier description to accomplish your aim.  Something like "reduces Impact damage to zero, and adds that amount to Slash".

[Obviousclone]

unpopular opinion: I think the new IPS changes are fine, and that the community really just wants lategame armour scaling to be fixed (and since none of the IPS changes address this issue, players want it changed so it actually does something about it).

 

As much as slash "adds damage" it's still a damage over time effect which means that if slash DotS are powerful because they kills things as crowd control, then it's the slowest effect out of all 3 effects since death will happen after the enemy has ticked enough damage to die to slash procs.

 

This is of course, coming a from a sonar banshee player so damage is a bit of a "i don't really care everything dies in oneshot" but more damage reduction values and more stun duration on the other ones seems like a reasonable way to bring up the balance of the other procs.

I will agree that the slash dot scaling with base slash thing seems to be a really mean way to nerf hunter's munition. But the sympathetic within me leads me to believe that the justification is that they don't want another maiming strike (or body count) to crush the plat market and force new players to spend exorbitant amounts of plat just to buy a limited mod which makes the game seem grind hard or pay your way to victory. And the optimist in me leads me to believe that they have mods they intend to release in the future (or upcoming changes to existing mods) to support this new slash dot.

[rudman88]

i find it liek DE is pushing us to go slash proc.

Staggering scale as damage goes up ? isnt this a nerf ?

puncture scales as damage goes up ? isnt this a nerf too ?

 

puncture can reduce damage up to 80% ? whats the use when their dmg are reach 3k ?

puncture should be improved man xd

[Lion]

1 hour ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

I know what you mean, but as-worded, this would turn a Galatine from 4.1/4.1/156.8 to 0/4.1/313.6.  You would need a wordier description to accomplish your aim.  Something like "reduces Impact damage to zero, and adds that amount to Slash".

This is true, the example you gave was what I intended, though I just wasn't sure how to put it. I meant it more like "100% of impact damage is converted to Slash" 

[PhotriusPyrelus]

1 minute ago, rudman88 said:

i find it liek DE is pushing us to go slash proc.

Staggering scale as damage goes up ? isnt this a nerf ?

puncture scales as damage goes up ? isnt this a nerf too ?

 

puncture can reduce damage up to 80% ? whats the use when their dmg are reach 3k ?

puncture should be improved man xd

Stagger scaling isn't itself a nerf.  Scaling up to ragdoll throwing enemies all over the map is perhaps a nerf (though I also imagine it could be pretty fun/funny).  Sure, a dead enemy deals no damage, but an enemy sitting on the ground not fighting may as well be dead for the time it takes him to get back up.

Puncture just needs to be reworked.  It doesn't even make sense (to me) that it reduces damage done.  Slash makes you bleed.  Impact can daze you, or knock you off your feet.  Radiation messes with your brains.  Corrosive eats away at armour.  Heat burns.  Most statuses make at least some degree of sense.

Lastly, doesn't Impact do Puncture's job better than Puncture does it?  How much damage to enemies on the ground deal?  (Spoiler: 100% less, i.e. none)

[(PSN)psycofang]

Puncture really should do something else but realistically its hard to make puncture do something unique without it dipping into another status effects job.

Puncture ignores some armor? May as well make it slash

Pierce Targets? What is punch through

Strip armor? What is corrosive

Reduce damage? Impact says 100% prevention is better than 75% 

Puncture is the black sheep since inception and it shows.

To set it apart from the others maybe allow it to proc on bosses? 

[PhotriusPyrelus]

I'd like to see it have something to do with armour-penetration.  Yes. Slash and Corrosive are already countermeasures to armour, but Electric, Impact, and Blast all kind of do the same job, too (CC).

 

Instead of being permanent armour-stripping like Corrosive, maybe it could do something like Detect Vulnerability, where it punches a hole in the target's armour for a few seconds (because obviously space-magic armour is self-sealing =P) and shots in that area bypass the target's armour.

[(PSN)Axiom666]

Slash will still be strong. Notice that they said reprocs make an existing proc stronger. I take that as slash, slash, slash equals three slash procs combined and proc timer refreshed. Slash, heat, slash equals two separate slash procs. Same for other types. That's how I read it. So that has some potential for high damage and may push ppl to make more focused weapon builds. Now yea, elemental only melees with slash guaranteed procs are in a nasty spot, but I'm sure that'll get addressed when they touch on elements. So this could possibly be good for the system.

Now I do wish impact built up to a disarm instead of ragdoll and that puncture built up how much damage gets through armor and shields, this does not dip into slash because it's not a DOT. Just my thoughts.

[Ampoth]

It's just going to be more bad decisions by Scott, there's nothing you can do to change his mind apart from a large community backlash, and even then all we'll get is some spiteful begrudging changes that still result in everything in a worse state.

[Karthunk]

The real concern everyone should be having is how these changes will affect our warframes when the npcs start using them on us.

I just can't wait for my dps to drop 75% and my warframe being constantly staggered.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Karthunk

[Gamma745]

3 minutes ago, Karthunk said:

The real concern everyone should be having is how these changes will affect our warframes when the npcs start using them on us.

I just can't wait for my dps to drop 75% and my warframe being constantly staggered.

Yeah, it's going to be like the current or old magnetic proc. Devastating on us, but pitiful against the enemy.

[(PSN)psycofang]

5 minutes ago, Karthunk said:

The real concern everyone should be having is how these changes will affect our warframes when the npcs start using them on us.

You dont..."use"...things on Limbo and Inaros can stop it entirely, Rhino will ignore it, Nezha will bubble it, Loki/Ivara/Ash well...can shoot something you cant see, Octavia will Octavia her way to the bank. 

 

Jesus Christ the dps frames are screwed, Chroma is going to get HAMMERED! He wont be able to shoot himself anymore either!

Be very scared in pvp though

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

A lot of people are missing an important detail in the Dev Workshop.

Quote

"We are also making a change in how a proc's associated damage output is calculated - before, a Slash proc would scale based on the weapon's total base damage output. Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted. Players may feel encouraged to focus their weapon builds around certain damage types in order to consistently inflict powerful procs, or go for raw damage across several damage types to inflict multiple procs at once!"

I want to ask DE about this directly, because their phrasing in the devstream and Workshop have not been completely clear. But the underlined text indicates to me that slash will be based on total slash damage on the weapon, not base. If that's true, the problems a lot of people are concerned about go away. The status system will be blown wide open, and there will be a greater level of customization. Munitions loses some of its awesomness (Amprex and Lenz). But most notably, melee weapons which hinge on bleed procs in their stances will be hurt by this (Destreza).

If I'm wrong and bleed conversion is based on base slash, some weapons will suffer. I'm of two minds on that. On the one hand, there are lots of ways to deal with armor. Some frames can remove it completely (Mag, Ash, Banshee, Oberon, Hydroid). Corrosive procs and Corrosive Projection are effective as well. People are overly reliant on the bleed meta, in my opinion. I think I could live with it, if elemental status get some meaningful way of combating armor. Toxin comes to mind.

Here's what I keep coming back to. What we want is "endgame", right? Challenge at a high level of play? But our weapons are too powerful. We utterly stomp even the toughest enemies to the point where they only become a threat when they are one-shotting us. Would it really be such a bad thing to crunch down the level of enemies we are routinely expected to fight? The counterargument to this is bleed isn't actually being nerfed, the number of weapons that can benefit from it is shrinking, with some benefiting even more. But I think it's still a point worth considering.

Edited December 19, 2017 by (PS4)BlitzKeir
typo

[(PSN)Axiom666]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

A lot of people are missing an important detail in the Dev Workshop.

I want to ask DE about this directly, because their phrasing in the devstream and Workshop have not been completely clear. But the underlined text indicates to me that slash will be based on total slash damage on the weapon, not base. If that's true, the problems a lot of people are concerned about go away. The status system will be blown wide open, and there will be a greater level of customization. Munitions loses some of its awesomness (Amprex and Lenz). But most notably, melee weapons which hinge on bleed procs in their stances will be hurt by this (Destreza).

If I'm wrong and bleed conversion is based on base slash, some weapons will suffer. I'm of two minds on that. On the one hand, there are lots of ways to deal with armor. Some frames can remove it completely (Mag, Ash, Banshee, Oberon, Hydroid). Corrosive procs and Corrosive Projection are effective as well. People are overly reliant on the bleed meta, in my opinion. I think I could live with it, if elemental status get some meaningful way of combating armor. Toxin comes to mind.

Here's what I keep coming back to. What we want is "endgame", right? Challenge at a high level of play? But our weapons are too powerful. We utterly stomp even the toughest enemies to the point where they only become a threat when they are one-shotting us. Would it really be such a bad thing to crunch down the level of enemies we are routinely expected to fight? The counterargument to this is bleed isn't actually being nerfed, the number of weapons that can benefit from it is shrinking, with some benefiting even more. But I think it's still a point worth considering.

Heck, I hadn't even thought of single type mods increasing procs and on top of "reprocs" combining. Think it might be interesting.