Adressing the issues of Damage 2.5 : the ragdoll menace.

[LascarCapable]

As all of you already knows, a revamp of the physical damage types is planned for early 2018. This thread will however only talk about the Impact damage revamp.

DE planned for 2018 to make impact power scale in power depending of how much damage was inflicted. Low impact value would mean a simple stagger, while high impact value would mean ragdolling the enemy away. To be honest, I was incredibly hyped by that announcement, as I am a great fan of anything that can ragdoll enemies away. This would pretty much mean to me being able to have a good laugh with much more weapons. Sadly, the opinion of a major part of the community isn't the same as mine : most of you guys are actually much more concerned about the reliability of your damage input with those changes coming.

I won't discuss too much about the points raised against the implementation of ragdoll on impact procs, as those points have already been discussed a lot in other threads. Not being able to reliably score headshots due to enemies being wildly flung in the air is a legit concern. But I have to admit that most of the rework suggestions for Impact procs felt quite off. However I absolutely believe that there is a very good way to compensate for that lack of reliable damage issue, and the solution lies in two words : COLLISION SYSTEM !

Don't you guys find it strange that enemies don't suffer additional damage when they collide at extreme speed with a wall or another enemy ? The collision system would be all about that and bring to everyone a new fun and efficient way to kill enemies. It would likely work like that : when an enemy is ragdolled by any source, upon colliding with an entity or a surface, that enemy would suffer damage scaling with both the velocity at which that enemy got propelled and the amount of damage inflicted by the proc. If the ragdolled enemy collide with another one, it will also deal damage to the enemy they collided with, maybe even ragdolling that one enemy who could then collide with another one, creating a real snowball effect. Collisions damage would happen as long as the enemy is in a ragdolled state and if he collides with a strong enough velocity. This means that if the enemy you ragdolled bounces on multiple surface, they will recieve collision damage multiple times.

If such a system would get polished enough and become as viable as headshotting for the purpose of dealing damage, I am fairly sure Impact ragdoll would become a very fun, efficient and welcomed change to Warframe. :)

I hope my suggestion with please the largest amount of players possible.

 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I like this idea. Enemies Shopd take dame when their ragdolled into anything. 

Imo impact procs should break armor shields, reducing their effectiveness as well as leavin them 20% weaker against impact damge. The ability Should stack indefinitely.

[Tsukinoki]

37 minutes ago, D20 said:

most of you guys are actually much more concerned about the reliability of your damage input with those changes coming.

This is partly true, but its more about the sheer annoyance that ragdolling causes.
I mean can you imagine trying to use the Vulkar Wraith on tough enemies when your ragdolling them away all the time?
Or what about using an impact heavy melee weapon?  Good luck constantly chasing your target as they bounce away from you over and over and over and over again.  It would make some melee weapons purely useless for hitting any enemy more than once.

Sure it would be funny in the beginning, but honestly it would get super annoying super fast.

And then there are tons of possibilities of it just breaking the game.
Need to kill a certain target in a group of enemies to continue a mission/incursion/raid?  Oh well, they were ragdolled somewhere unreachable, start all over!
This was an issue with the sonicor before they reduced it from launching enemies into the sky, and even know the sonicor can break incursions if you launch the wrong enemy into the wrong location or stop a raid dead in its tracks.  I mean do you know how easy it is to lose the beacon that calls the resource drop that you need to destroy in some plains incursions are by using a sonicor to launch the one enemy that will drop the next beacon into a deep lake?
And I can see the exact same thing happening with impact weapons.
Even if the ragdoll kills them good luck collecting the important drop when that drop is in a pit well beyond vacuum range and past a teleport wall!

44 minutes ago, D20 said:

and the solution lies in two words : COLLISION SYSTEM !

Don't you guys find it strange that enemies don't suffer additional damage when they collide at extreme speed with a wall or another enemy ? The collision system would be all about that and bring to everyone a new fun and efficient way to kill enemies. It would likely work like that : when an enemy is ragdolled by any source, upon colliding with an entity or a surface, that enemy would suffer damage scaling with both the velocity at which that enemy got propelled and the amount of damage inflicted by the proc. If the ragdolled enemy collide with another one, it will also deal damage to the enemy they collided with, maybe even ragdolling that one enemy who could then collide with another one, creating a real snowball effect. Collisions damage would happen as long as the enemy is in a ragdolled state and if he collides with a strong enough velocity. This means that if the enemy you ragdolled bounces on multiple surface, they will recieve collision damage multiple times.

If such a system would get polished enough and become as viable as headshotting for the purpose of dealing damage, I am fairly sure Impact ragdoll would become a very fun, efficient and welcomed change to Warframe. :)

Small thing: We actually had a viable collision damage system with Frost when his snowglobe first gained the ability to throw out enemies that were in its casting radius.
Remember what happened?  DE nerfed it with the reasoning that "Colliding with walls should never deal fatal damage..."

And even this wouldn't solve any of the annoyances with the ragdoll system.
In order to deal enough damage to kill the enemy through physics collisions you pretty much have to give up entirely on what that enemy could drop (hopefully its not something that is required to complete the mission/incursion/bounty, or that it isn't something like a rare mod!) due to it flinging their body potentially hundreds of meters away.
And if its a capture target hopefully you didn't just ragdoll them someplace that you can't reach to capture them.  That would suck as the last mission in a tier 5 bounty....

This only fixes a potential issue with the ragdolling and not some of the more important ones that could cause lots of wasted time in Raids due to the one enemy you need to kill being ragdolled somewhere utterly unreachable.
It also doesn't solve the problem of making impact heavy melee weapons incredibly annoying to use with this change.  After all, can you honestly say you would have fun repeatedly chasing after you melee target every time you hit them?

[LascarCapable]

il y a 8 minutes, Tsukinoki a dit :

And even this wouldn't solve any of the annoyances with the ragdoll system.
In order to deal enough damage to kill the enemy through physics collisions you pretty much have to give up entirely on what that enemy could drop (hopefully its not something that is required to complete the mission/incursion/bounty, or that it isn't something like a rare mod!) due to it flinging their body potentially hundreds of meters away.
And if its a capture target hopefully you didn't just ragdoll them someplace that you can't reach to capture them.  That would suck as the last mission in a tier 5 bounty....

Those issues can be fixed with a few tweaks : for exemple, we can make capture targets and other key enemies not affected by ragdolls (I think it's already the case for capture targets). As for the loot, we can make a system where the loot would respawn at a nearby position if it falls out of the map, a bit like using the /unstuck command. Actually we could apply that to all non-enemy and all objective based entities to make sure that you wouldn't end up without loot or without a way to finish the mission. I also want to notice that slamming the enemy into a wall doesn't necessarily means that you will lose the loot. 

As for impact based melee weapons, maybe they can be tweaked so the ragdoll would only occur outside of combos. Or we can add a system so the maximum proc power would only happen of that one element if you mod the weapon specifically for it by having an amount of damage belonging to that element that outweights all other damage values. For exemple if you put both shocking touch and fever strike for corrosion damage without putting in your Jat Kittag any mod to improve impact damage, you would end up with a greater amount of corrosion than impact and wouldn't ragdoll your enemies away. More elegant solutions might exist as well.

[LuckyCharm]

I think the problem with ragdolls is that they're unpredictable. You have the perfect shot, take it, the enemy ragdolls after it and every bullet after that misses. Its not that you shoot an enemy and they're given predictable paths, every time i've seen an enemy in game ragdolled whether its by skills like bounce pad, tornado or sandstorm, or weapons like sonicor or kestrel they always  fly about randomly. 

Is it so much to ask that an enemy just gets dazed and stands still stunned for a little rather than fly to the moon or everywhere else except where you expect them to then comes back to whatever planet you're on? 

[LascarCapable]

il y a 9 minutes, LuckyCharm a dit :

I think the problem with ragdolls is that they're unpredictable. You have the perfect shot, take it, the enemy ragdolls after it and every bullet after that misses. Its not that you shoot an enemy and they're given predictable paths, every time i've seen an enemy in game ragdolled whether its by skills like bounce pad, tornado or sandstorm, or weapons like sonicor or kestrel they always  fly about randomly. 

Is it so much to ask that an enemy just gets dazed and stands still stunned for a little rather than fly to the moon or everywhere else except where you expect them to then comes back to whatever planet you're on? 

I'm pretty sure the precision of ragdolls can be widely improved. Sonicor at release used to allow some rather precise ragdolling. Kestrel used to allow for it too until something went terribly wrong. It's mostly a matter of physics, and if other games are able to present consistent and predictable physics, Warframe should be able to do it too with a few tweaks. Mostly hitbox related tweaks.

[Fallen_Echo]

My most preferred way of fixing impact would be that while the proc is active impact damage is increased on the target for every crowd control effect it suffer from althought i like this idea but im sure it wont be too useful for the same reason as why frosts bubble cant kill stuff.

[LascarCapable]

I am actually quite sure that Frost's Snowglobe got nerfed back in the days because the ability itself wasn't supposed to kill, not really because you are not supposed to kill through collision damage. I'm fairly sure collision damage would work very well if it's polished enough.

[LuckyCharm]

1 hour ago, D20 said:

Warframe should be able to do it too with a few tweaks.

If they were to try and fix this it'd mean they would have to give the enemies a weight system, which doesn't seem to be much of the case, especially with the way you kill enemies with bows and they fly for miles backwards, or you hit enemies with radial javelin and they just say "My people need me!" then fly off into the distance. I'm not sure how it all works with enemy ai etc, but at the moment it seems like weight has been turned off or something, since even small forces send enemys tumbling. 

it seems much simpler to just go from stagger -> Stumble -> stun rather than ragdoll. That way things keep working as intended if they're intended to work this way, and we actually get an impact with reliable cc allowing for followup shots

[LascarCapable]

il y a 35 minutes, LuckyCharm a dit :

If they were to try and fix this it'd mean they would have to give the enemies a weight system, which doesn't seem to be much of the case, especially with the way you kill enemies with bows and they fly for miles backwards, or you hit enemies with radial javelin and they just say "My people need me!" then fly off into the distance. I'm not sure how it all works with enemy ai etc, but at the moment it seems like weight has been turned off or something, since even small forces send enemys tumbling. 

it seems much simpler to just go from stagger -> Stumble -> stun rather than ragdoll. That way things keep working as intended if they're intended to work this way, and we actually get an impact with reliable cc allowing for followup shots

What you are describing are cases of ragdolls on kill. Those seems to be tied to projectile speed, which is perfectly fine in my honest opinion.

I don't see how a weight system would be needed. Some ragdolls does not necessarily make enemies go crazy high in the sky. Actually since the blast damage fix, the only weapon I tried that I can use to ragdoll enemies to an unreasonable range is Obex with the slide attack. I expect this to be the same with all sparring weapons. Anyway, if it happens to be needed, the weight could be tied to the base hp and armor value.

[Misgenesis]

Would be fun but they would have to increase pushback values for it to make sense. Thats could bring another set of problems.

Either way i personally want to see ragdolling as its more powerful than players think.

[Sziklamester]

I am not really like the idea of ragdolling everything. The impact should work to slow down enemies or even knock them if the impact damage was high enough it gives you time to finish off the enemy or shot more and kill it on the ground. Another problem if they add a ragdoll effect and now you use a cernos which is impact based. You take the bow for a stealth mission and you don't want all the time to go close to finish using finisher damage to kill then you have the option still to kill them from distance. If an enemy level is higher than my cernos damage output and I cannot kill it for example the first time then I don't want to see that ragdolled enemy to fly away rooms then get up and probably alarm his mates because the the stealth killing purpose will be pretty dead. I want that the target knocked down to the ground and 3-4-5 sec "maybe it is not op" stay in the ground and that's an enough time to finish off with a second and hopefully not alarm them. If a ragdolled body fly through rooms then there is very high the chance there someone will notice this and push the alarms. 

Mostly I want from the impact damage this and slow down enemies like the cold does without the cold effect it is also a big help because slow weapons like fragor which also impact based can have time to deal with the enemies. Fragor also ragdoll enemies so the whole ragdolling idea is maybe come from there and the fact bows also does this but I wishing less of this. If I can slow down or knock down enemies with it then I won second and can avoid the next attacks or finish off an enemy.

My vote if up for this idea instead of ragdoll enemies.

[Sziklamester]

On 2018. 01. 05. at 3:03 PM, D20 said:

I am actually quite sure that Frost's Snowglobe got nerfed back in the days because the ability itself wasn't supposed to kill, not really because you are not supposed to kill through collision damage. I'm fairly sure collision damage would work very well if it's polished enough.

Collision damage could not work well because that could mean if we fall and the player model collide with the floor then we also got damage. A lot of enemies could got a lot of damage from the environment if they collide with an object.

[Anthraxicus]

This could be never be balanced to match headshots because the latter is based on skill level of the player and the former based on a lot of factors beyond the control of the player.

[LascarCapable]

il y a une heure, Sziklamester a dit :

Collision damage could not work well because that could mean if we fall and the player model collide with the floor then we also got damage. A lot of enemies could got a lot of damage from the environment if they collide with an object.

Players can't be ragdolled (collision damage only happens on ragdolled targets), and the game can make a clear difference between players and mobs. We wouldn't suffer collision damage. This wouldn't be an issue for players.

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

And when this is used on tough enemies? (Eximi, Nox) Punting these guys away without really doing much damage or allowing you to continuously damage them?

The idea itself is interesting, but I think there needs to be a step between Stagger=>Ragdoll that makes reaching the Ragdoll state a modding choice and more enemy specific, rather than an inherit effect for most weapons on all enemies.

To that end I'd suggest only reaching a Ragdoll state if the Impact proc deals a certain % of an enemies health. Otherwise it only leads to a knockdown, with successive Impact procs dealing more damage (on an immobilized enemy).

Of course, still having weapons that reach the Ragdoll state regardless (Sonicor), as a unique effect.

[SeEnCreaTive]

On 1/5/2018 at 5:29 AM, D20 said:

Those issues can be fixed with a few tweaks : for exemple, we can make capture targets and other key enemies not affected by ragdolls (I think it's already the case for capture targets). As for the loot, we can make a system where the loot would respawn at a nearby position if it falls out of the map, a bit like using the /unstuck command. Actually we could apply that to all non-enemy and all objective based entities to make sure that you wouldn't end up without loot or without a way to finish the mission. I also want to notice that slamming the enemy into a wall doesn't necessarily means that you will lose the loot. 

As for impact based melee weapons, maybe they can be tweaked so the ragdoll would only occur outside of combos. Or we can add a system so the maximum proc power would only happen of that one element if you mod the weapon specifically for it by having an amount of damage belonging to that element that outweights all other damage values. For exemple if you put both shocking touch and fever strike for corrosion damage without putting in your Jat Kittag any mod to improve impact damage, you would end up with a greater amount of corrosion than impact and wouldn't ragdoll your enemies away. More elegant solutions might exist as well.

Yes, I feel that impact can be tweaked for specific weapons as well.

 

On 1/5/2018 at 5:34 AM, LuckyCharm said:

I think the problem with ragdolls is that they're unpredictable. You have the perfect shot, take it, the enemy ragdolls after it and every bullet after that misses. Its not that you shoot an enemy and they're given predictable paths, every time i've seen an enemy in game ragdolled whether its by skills like bounce pad, tornado or sandstorm, or weapons like sonicor or kestrel they always  fly about randomly. 

Is it so much to ask that an enemy just gets dazed and stands still stunned for a little rather than fly to the moon or everywhere else except where you expect them to then comes back to whatever planet you're on? 

I actually prefer sending people to space with my Kestral, Ive made many posts about keeping the fact that its a space transport.

On 1/5/2018 at 5:43 AM, D20 said:

I'm pretty sure the precision of ragdolls can be widely improved. Sonicor at release used to allow some rather precise ragdolling. Kestrel used to allow for it too until something went terribly wrong. It's mostly a matter of physics, and if other games are able to present consistent and predictable physics, Warframe should be able to do it too with a few tweaks. Mostly hitbox related tweaks.

 

Ive never found scoring headshots difficult with my Kestrel (until something happened with how the kestrel is thrown and doesn't actually hit the aiming reticle).

Ie: with more or less "Single shot" weapons, like the Kestrel, and the Sonicor, to some regard, insta ragdoll to space is fine. But for weapons like Argonak, Stiletto ect, impact weapons that rely on multiple shots Ragdoll might be bad for obvious reasons

 

So I don't think it should be a discussion about if all ragdoll is bad or good, but a discussion of when and where is it appropriate.

I don't think doing it per damage is a very good way of doing it. In the least. Unless of course you are talking pre-mod damage, which then might be ok. The would be an easy catch all system to implement to current and future weapons. But it wouldn't work 100%. For instance, I want to send people to space with my Kestrel. It is literally my favorite thing in Warframe period, and I find it VERY useful as well. I NEED that in my life. But I absolutely wouldn't want to do it with a Sonicore. Sonicore I would like knock down, but no ragdoll. A Bo for instance I would like to ragdoll them but with very little knock back (Like OG Warframe days) but not put them in orbit. I can see them all doing similar amounts of impact damage, but I want totally different impact effects from each weapon.

EDIT: Actually a better example Kestrel spin attack vs Throw. Similar damage, but 2 different effects. (Perhaps space sending was a consequence of Ragdolling, then the speed of the throw but Im not sure. I understand Kestrel is pretty broken atm, See: Powerthrow, so Im glad to hear its being looked at) 

Edited January 8, 2018 by SeEnCreaTive

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

On 1/5/2018 at 7:15 AM, D20 said:

As all of you already knows, a revamp of the physical damage types is planned for early 2018. This thread will however only talk about the Impact damage revamp.

DE planned for 2018 to make impact power scale in power depending of how much damage was inflicted. Low impact value would mean a simple stagger, while high impact value would mean ragdolling the enemy away. To be honest, I was incredibly hyped by that announcement, as I am a great fan of anything that can ragdoll enemies away. This would pretty much mean to me being able to have a good laugh with much more weapons. Sadly, the opinion of a major part of the community isn't the same as mine : most of you guys are actually much more concerned about the reliability of your damage input with those changes coming.

I won't discuss too much about the points raised against the implementation of ragdoll on impact procs, as those points have already been discussed a lot in other threads. Not being able to reliably score headshots due to enemies being wildly flung in the air is a legit concern. But I have to admit that most of the rework suggestions for Impact procs felt quite off. However I absolutely believe that there is a very good way to compensate for that lack of reliable damage issue, and the solution lies in two words : COLLISION SYSTEM !

Don't you guys find it strange that enemies don't suffer additional damage when they collide at extreme speed with a wall or another enemy ? The collision system would be all about that and bring to everyone a new fun and efficient way to kill enemies. It would likely work like that : when an enemy is ragdolled by any source, upon colliding with an entity or a surface, that enemy would suffer damage scaling with both the velocity at which that enemy got propelled and the amount of damage inflicted by the proc. If the ragdolled enemy collide with another one, it will also deal damage to the enemy they collided with, maybe even ragdolling that one enemy who could then collide with another one, creating a real snowball effect. Collisions damage would happen as long as the enemy is in a ragdolled state and if he collides with a strong enough velocity. This means that if the enemy you ragdolled bounces on multiple surface, they will recieve collision damage multiple times.

If such a system would get polished enough and become as viable as headshotting for the purpose of dealing damage, I am fairly sure Impact ragdoll would become a very fun, efficient and welcomed change to Warframe. :)

I hope my suggestion with please the largest amount of players possible.

 

Quote

While I feel that AoE and only having 2-3 meters/yards would not work well, If we were to make it singular damage in one direction, we could technically have the enemy body through other enemies like you said, but only those enemies directly behind them. In addition, it should not actually be a static amount, but determined based on how much damage you do. As such, the formula could go something like this on special attacks like the slam only:

Travel Distance = Impact damage(.2),   Where E= number of enemies collided with                                                                                                                                                                                          10(E)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   As a hypothetical, you deal 2000 impact damage on a hit with a slam, sending an enemy flying a distance of 8 meters, passing through 5 additional enemies, doing the impact damage divided by a cumulative percentage, which we can say for now is 5%. To calculate this, we can use the following formula:

Additional Damage Dealt = Initial Damage(.5)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     E                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Going back to the hypothetical, we can determine that rest of the enemies that are hit by this will take 200 damage from the original enemy by inputting the data we know. There are still problems with this however, as those enemies that the original collide with will be sent flying too. Additionally, my formula would theoretically still allow the ragdolling to continue for quite some time if there is no check put in place, so I suggest a hard cap of 15 meters and a minimum of 1 meter. Of course this usually won't be problem since we work in pretty confined spaces, but it would be problematic if it happened in the plains. As a solution for the subsequent ragdolling, just continue to use the damage formula I provided. Eventually it will even out so they stop ragdolling.

Haha, I actually had the same idea, coming up with these formulas, although I only calculated for a slam attack using hypothetical yet reasonable numbers. Listed above is my quote with the formulas still included and an explanation of it for anybody interested in looking into it.

[o.0-]

I can see too many moving parts with this though. Between issues with hosts / clients, lag, map nuances and then calculating lethal damage from the variable elements in colliding with other things.

What I'd look to is a relationship between the idea for triggering the stun - knockback and ragdoll along the lines of how punch through has a value. That way it is harder to ragdoll Napalms and Bombards, compared to Butchers and Scorpions, or Techs to Crewmen.

So what if ragdoll state would simply instantly kill a target? That way increasing Impact Damage when the Status Effect would proc would be resisted some, in terms of triggering a ragdoll or a stronger knockback.

And maybe a short delay could be possible, where upon entering a ragdoll state, the enemy is slow to get up and dies after five seconds from the start of the ragdoll sequence?

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

14 hours ago, Sziklamester said:

I am not really like the idea of ragdolling everything. The impact should work to slow down enemies or even knock them if the impact damage was high enough it gives you time to finish off the enemy or shot more and kill it on the ground. Another problem if they add a ragdoll effect and now you use a cernos which is impact based. You take the bow for a stealth mission and you don't want all the time to go close to finish using finisher damage to kill then you have the option still to kill them from distance. If an enemy level is higher than my cernos damage output and I cannot kill it for example the first time then I don't want to see that ragdolled enemy to fly away rooms then get up and probably alarm his mates because the the stealth killing purpose will be pretty dead. I want that the target knocked down to the ground and 3-4-5 sec "maybe it is not op" stay in the ground and that's an enough time to finish off with a second and hopefully not alarm them. If a ragdolled body fly through rooms then there is very high the chance there someone will notice this and push the alarms. 

Mostly I want from the impact damage this and slow down enemies like the cold does without the cold effect it is also a big help because slow weapons like fragor which also impact based can have time to deal with the enemies. Fragor also ragdoll enemies so the whole ragdolling idea is maybe come from there and the fact bows also does this but I wishing less of this. If I can slow down or knock down enemies with it then I won second and can avoid the next attacks or finish off an enemy.

My vote if up for this idea instead of ragdoll enemies.

I mean you say this, but killing enemies right in front of their comrades still will not trigger the alarms so long as you are not seen. Just wanted to put that out there.

[LuckyCharm]

20 minutes ago, SeEnCreaTive said:

I actually prefer sending people to space with my Kestral, Ive made many posts about keeping the fact that its a space transport.

I enjoyed doing this with the sonicor too. I think it's fine on a couple of weapons. I'd really not enjoy it though if it was to happen for every impact weapon which is what they're proposing.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

3 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

So what if ragdoll state would simply instantly kill a target? That way increasing Impact Damage when the Status Effect would proc would be resisted some, in terms of triggering a ragdoll or a stronger knockback.

And maybe a short delay could be possible, where upon entering a ragdoll state, the enemy is slow to get up and dies after five seconds from the start of the ragdoll sequence?

That said though, this would not solve the problem in the slightest. It would only create a new meta because people would purposefully build anything they to get instakills or kills so easily that the enemies mere existance does not even matter. Even worse, think of how that could be abused with ground based bosses like the Ambulas or Lt. Krill. Instant killing bosses is not good at all.

[o.0-]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

That said though, this would not solve the problem in the slightest. It would only create a new meta because people would purposefully build anything they to get instakills or kills so easily that the enemies mere existance does not even matter. Even worse, think of how that could be abused with ground based bosses like the Ambulas or Lt. Krill. Instant killing bosses is not good at all.

Well, one idea is applying a value threshold to be able to achieve ragdoll. And there are ways to structure this that can have very few changes or come with further tweaks and adjustments to various systems between adjusting mods directly and building up the status system in the process.

For example, one potential limiter is an enemy needs to be at 20% Health to trigger and different enemies can be made immune to ragdoll altogether.

And in terms of swinging my Sibear, why wouldn't such a hammer be able to sunder Grineer Armor or knock over a Crewman like my Fragor Prime could?

So sure, the goal to avoid making systems exploitable, and there are different means to accomplish this, depending on how much the devs want to change and improve.

[Anthraxicus]

I can understand people that like to send enemies flying away, which can easily be achieved with certain weapons. But, with my Knell, which has a pretty good chance of proc'ing Impact thanks to my riven, the last thing I want is to send enemies flying away.

[Astatane]

IPS should only be about damage. No cc or damage reduction or such nonsense.

Because if we want cc, we can mod for the proper elementals. If you include it into IPS, 95% of the weapons in the game suddenly have these annoying procs and you can not mod out of it except finding the right riven.

And in comparison with slash this is no improvement anyway. Or do you see people abandoning slash to get more blast, ice or electric procs? So why should they suddenly go for impact if they are ignoring (with some exceptions) cc builds for weapons right now? You do realize we have far superior cc with our warframes, needing it on the weapon only if we are running solo with a non-cc warframe or as backup in case of too little energy. Both rather rare circumstances.

So how should this help bringing impact and puncture up to par with slash? Impact and puncture procs need to increase the damage you do, this is the only thing that puts these types on par with slash, nothing else.