We need more immediate and accessible challenge!

[PatternistSlave]

9 minutes ago, iceyShardZ said:

 with endless fissures,i hate waiting 40 minutes each time until things get interesting,

and as the playerbase grows the demand for such missions would eventually arise

I can't remember the last time I've stayed 40 min.  I consider myself lucky if the group will stay 25.   That's my concern is the playerbase growing.  Systems that further exacerbate the issue of new player accessibility...  Get that under control and maybe it's a different story.

[Volinus7]

You know that "balance" is the complete opposite of "compulsive loot dispenser" called Warframe right? 

 

Warframe is one of those games trapped in the vicious cycle of player retention. Devs want players to burn through as many recycled loops as possible > Gameplay needs to be dumbed down to lessen the stress of skillcap/strategy/choice > No challenge > Need to promote powercreep steamroller to assist microtransactions > No balance. 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Volinus7

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

Warframe needs a new raid. End of story.

As far as a quick challenge right now. Go join a sortie spy with randoms....

[iceyShardZ]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)KnowLedge said:

Warframe needs a new raid. End of story.

As far as a quick challenge right now. Go join a sortie spy with randoms....

that's sure to be a funny challenge xD

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

I agree with you on mission difficulty. It takes so long for the mission to get seriously engaging and then it ramps up almost instantaneously to a melee or die spam fest. I have to be honest, this is one the devs probably can't win. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't, because like the guy on that Black Mirror episode was saying about the doctor's addiction to pain being like how we tend to adapt to spicy pepper, that's how we get when it comes to challenge on video games. It's never going to be enough, or it will be too much.

However, I feel that it shouldn't be difficult to add ascending difficulty levels/options to all the nodes. It's already possible to do this; if, for example, there's both a nightmare mission and a syndicate mission on one node. Perhaps after completing The War Within these more challenging levels are unlocked for the players.

I don't know, I watched the last live stream and it seems like they have a lot on their plates and did not look like they had returned from real vacations. I keep telling myself: Stop obsessing over a video game. Stop trying to live in it. Go outside.  Then the 5 year old me whines: But it's fun and addicting! There's so many weapons and I want to play with them all!  Video games are a helluva...

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

Ahem, get ready for a walk of text. I have a lot of opinions regarding this matter. There will not be a TL;DR as much of what I’m going to state has validity and can’t be summed up.

If your answer is simply make the star chart harder when you’ve completed it, no. That won’t solve anything. 

1. You’d need to make it optional. Not everyone would want to just jump into Uber high level content.

2. You’d need to gate a large variety of endgame gear behind this difficulty increase. Otherwise only a select few people would progress to this “veteran mode” just for the lulz. There needs to be incentive.

3. It wouldn’t solve Warframes biggest issue when discussing difficulty and challenge.

Warframe’s challenge problem doesn’t stem from enemies not dealing enough damage, though that could be a small part of the problem.

It stems from the overarching design philosophy of the game. Enemy AI, Armor Scaling, Level design are all large factors of the game and are actually blemishes.

Enemy AI is not smart enough to have enhancing gameplay. Each enemy effectively does the same thing with slight variations depending on the unit type (range or Melee).

Armor Scaling is a broken way to scale enemies up. It can get so out of hand that you basically HAVE to have x4 CP or a frame that can strip armor effectively.

Level design is incredibly generic and doesn’t compliment the enemy behavior.

And to top it all off the biggest reason why  leveled challenge is nigh impossible in Warframe is the Warframes themselves. Warframe is about a power fantasy. There is no “balance” in Warframe.

What happens is that players essentially end up abusing enemy behavior, enemy Scaling and lackluster Level design and Warframe set ups to cheese a majority of the games “endgame” content. This won’t change if the enemy level is increased. In fact, it’ll only become more frequent to see and demand Meta builds.

Let’s take a moment to look at another game that does “challenge” extremely well, at least IMHO.

DOOM 2016

Enemy AI is varied. An Imp doesn’t act like a Pinky which doesn’t act like a Revenant which doesn’t act like a Baron. Catch my drift.

Enemies generally always have the same health pools throughout. No ludicrous Scaling here.

Level design is may not look like genuine real life areas, but the arenas (instances where your forced to fight) are methodical and are designed to compliment the types of enemies you fight as well as the Doomguys capabilities.

The Doomguy himself is incredibly strong and agile. He’s a total Badass, and if played right can provide a power fantasy not too dissimilar from Warframe, the difference being his power is directly equates to the players performance of utilizing everything the game has to offer. Using your arsenal, movement Glory Kills it all meshes together in a beautiful blend of challenging distruction. If you stay still, chances are you’re already dead. Whereas in Warframe you get a team of four and sit in a corner for 3 hours mashing a couple of buttons. Fun.

Now don’t think I’m bashing on Warframe, I love this game. But I don’t think the issue it has can be fixed with something as simple as higher enemy levels.

In order to have legitimate challenge the game needs an overhaul. Or force the players to use specific load outs that go against the usual Meta scene.

Now I can already see the comment, “Well I won’t use Meta builds.” Believe or not if you mod with any kind of efficiency to bend the game in your favor, you are being Meta. Hell, the mod system in its entirety is a Meta. And there’s no way to accurately gauge and provide challenge with a system like this and with what Warframe has to work with in terms of all the things I listed above. 

Its a crapshoot. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And that’s why I think DE is doing the best with what they’ve got without hurting the game entirely.

Yes there does need to be discussion about endgame, but I think it needs to be beyond simple level enhancements. Of course this is all merely the opinion of some random guy on the internet so what do I know?

[Volinus7]

25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

 

It's a tug of war between players who want challenge/balance and players who want Warframe to be a Cookie Clicker clone. 

No need to guess the result though. 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I've been an advocate of a hard mode star chart after you clear each system being unlocked too.. Although that would split the userbase and probably make it harder for newcomers to find activity on some planets... That said, it makes no sense to me that most systems end up being too low level to be worth going to for veterans.

[iceyShardZ]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

1. You’d need to make it optional. Not everyone would want to just jump into Uber high level content.

 

I SAID IT WOULD BE OPTIONAL,WHY DO EVERYONE THINK IM GOING TO JUST RAMP UP THE DIFFICULTY FOR EVERYONE

is it really that insane that i want to enjoy sortie level content all the time???

[krc473]

9 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

What would this "Mode" actually entail? What is the "higher risk"? I mean Nightmare mode is already kind of this. If you want a mode that makes better use of your time if you have what it takes to handle it then fine but don't disguise it as a solution to "challenge" because it won't be.

I use Veteran Mode as that is what some other games call it. What I had in mind was something that would challenge the meta build. Something that would be very hard to solo as a single person, regardless of the build. Let’s face it, Warframe is a co-op game, but if you have a four person squad, there is no challenge. What I want, is something that would challenge the four person squad. Nightmare missions are no harder than normal missions (I find), some are even easier than normal missions. 

 

So, what I was thinking:

1. 2x, or 3x mission rewards and drops and affinity (exclude nothing) Adjust this for balance, 
2. 10x enemy level, or level 100 whichever is higher. So, Mercury has level 100 enemies. Sedna has level 300-400. Sorties go up to 1000 etc.
3. Restricted to a minimum MR or play time. Full star chart completion required.
4. Nightmare mode effects could be applied
5. No restrictions to what gear you take. 
6. Numbers would be changed based on what DE thought was fair. But the point is to make it as hard as possible, while providing reasonable rewards.

For me, the main reason I do not really play is the complete lack of anything challenging. The introduction of a system that would actually add some difficult end game stuff might encourage me to play more frequently. People that do not feel motivated to play are less likely to spend money. 

 

[iceyShardZ]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

I've been an advocate of a hard mode star chart after you clear each system being unlocked too.. Although that would split the userbase and probably make it harder for newcomers to find activity on some planets... That said, it makes no sense to me that most systems end up being too low level to be worth going to for veterans.

EXACTLY >:|

and it wouldn't really divide the user base because veterans only go to venus for example to either get some nitain or help new players,it would only divide the player base if the veterans enjoy the "hard mode" but,don't we all want everyone to enjoy rather than just newbies?

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

6 hours ago, iceyShardZ said:

I SAID IT WOULD BE OPTIONAL,WHY DO EVERYONE THINK IM GOING TO JUST RAMP UP THE DIFFICULTY FOR EVERYONE

is it really that insane that i want to enjoy sortie level content all the time???

Please don’t yell at me. When you caps lock that’s essentially what you’re doing. A little can go a long way.

And as for my statement it was more or less a reiteration of the topic at hand. Don’t get it twisted. Funny how in my entire post that’s the one thing you picked up on and decided to get butthurt over it.

Regardless. I’m still against your viewpoint as a whole. But of course I laid out the issues in my previous comment.

Edited January 16, 2018 by (XB1)Ivan of Jupiter

[steelblueskies]

you know i had a nice long detailed discussion of the games design, dark sectors design, and so much more. then i realized, op probably doesn't realize they are actively shooting themselves in the foot, which is a far bigger point.

 

if you want the enemies at the level an hour or two in, but are willing to suck it up to get to them over and over.. well from a design standpoint thats rather like people who say "i want teh phat loots, not all this grind to get it" then grind anyway as theres no choice.

 

if you are willing to not leave and just do it, and it consumes your time without doing more work, mission successful from a design standpoint.

complaining about it is great and all, but actions, especially data aggregate actions....

[trndr]

As you suggest nerfing all/most things so you can get a challange, you could try:

Have at least 1 of each weapon frame and companion (ex Soma Prime is not Soma).

Go to loadout and select random.

Now that is your loadout for a week.

Don't use any affinity farm.

[ZodiacShinryu]

11 hours ago, krc473 said:

5. No restrictions to what gear you take. 

For me, the main reason I do not really play is the complete lack of anything challenging.

Game over.

Bet I could solo the "veteran mode" sorties with Limbo. That's all before we consider team synergy of a number of frames. As I said if its just to add a way to manipulate the grind cycle (somewhat reasonably because it doesn't sound like you wish to add power creep rewards) then fine, I won't argue more on the subject. But where do we go when this gets dull? We (veterans) barely care about the level of the enemy now so if that is the main manipulation of system we will not get challenging.

I will say that challenge is a subjective moving target. I will also say that this idea does make content "objectively" harder. But does harder really equate to challenging? It is always the people at the top that complain about challenge... and there is always going to be people at the top.

[krc473]

3 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

But does harder really equate to challenging?

I do not think it would be that challenging no. The enemies would be harder to kill (depends on gear of course). I basically want end game content (just something more rewarding really), because lets face it, there is nothing. Implementing this kind of system is really the easy solution: on/off button, button applies a multiplier to everything. Easy enough. As opposed to say designing a new mode, with new features, new drops etc.

My original idea was a 100x multiplier on the enemies, so, level 100 - 10,000. With a sliding scale of enemy level = loot multiplier (maybe, 2 - 5x). I figured that's not something DE would implement, because level 10,000 would be "too high". I think level 10,000 enemies might be a challenge on some builds. I am not really a fan of the artificial challenge of "making four people do something at once (buttons and such)". Its a challenge because people do not listen, not because its difficult.

Of course, "too high" in the same way that Sorties are a "challenge" 

- How much easier would Hema farming have been on a system like this? Double resource weekend, double resource booster, 3x drops from enemy level. Squad of four clan mates (basically, 48 per drop...) 

8 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

As I said if its just to add a way to manipulate the grind cycle

That is kind of the point. I want less grind, so do most people. I mean, I would love MR rank = loot multiplier, but that gets a bit crazy (focus farming on 25x focus, on a double weekend, with a double booster... 100x focus). As someone who has to run for 30 minutes in a Void mission to get 2 Argon Crystals, (1 at 2 mins in, the second at 28 mins in) being able to have a base loot multiplier would be great. Because every single other drop there is useless to me. 

 

18 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

But where do we go when this gets dull?

A new game probably. But that is the issue DE will face (if they can keep people for a few extra months, that is a benefit to the company). If they cannot give people new exciting content (I am talking end game stuff) people will just start leaving the game. Bring new people to the game (advertising around PoE) does nothing if they cannot keep their players. They constantly focus on new gear, or making the game more noob friendly. But neither of those are much use to veteran players. 

[ZodiacShinryu]

20 hours ago, (PS4)KnowLedge said:

Warframe needs a new raid. End of story.

You aren't entirely wrong. One (Corpus first) or two to finish out the enemy factions with maybe another in the future for sentients. Though the reason they haven't devoted time to it was only a small percentage of the user base plays them. Raids/Trials aren't that hard or challenging from the game itself as it is getting the playerbase to cooperate. I mean I think I remember seeing a vid of a squad killing LoR with fishing spears which I found funny. Adding a new one doesn't particularly mean they'll see huge returns on the resources they'd use to make it.

Besides that they are particularly sluggish on fixing problems within the current ones (based on every update there are a couple posts saying "fix JV problem"). They would need to make the game type more "friendly" likely through public matchmaking and ultimately making it easier which goes against everything here.

[iceyShardZ]

21 hours ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

Please don’t yell at me. When you caps lock that’s essentially what you’re doing. A little can go a long way.

And as for my statement it was more or less a reiteration of the topic at hand. Don’t get it twisted. Funny how in my entire post that’s the one thing you picked up on and decided to get butthurt over it.

Regardless. I’m still against your viewpoint as a whole. But of course I laid out the issues in my previous comment.

first off

DON'T TELL ME WHO TO YELL AT MOTHAF@!#!#!@#@!#

...jk

secondly

regardless of what you say,there IS no challenge to a full squad with fully modded and min maxed sets,

and there needs to be one,

because ultimately why else would you even grind your @ss off if there is no challenge to anticipate?

if  we just grind for the sake of grind, well that sucks

we need a reason to grind,an end goal,if its not my "veteran mode" than suggest something else,

but ultimately the game should have an end game environment that feels challenging but not outright impossible,

and im not talking about cheese sets,whatever challenges those sets is something that is far beyond impossible for a set built for just having good dps and cc

im talking about challenging the average veteran main set,so that you feel satisfied with what you built,

currently the game feels like cutting through butter,

again,except for some sortie 3 missions,

all im suggesting is that we fix that,

if my "veteran mode" is absolute Sh!t to you well then go ahead suggest your own solution,but if you are to suggest that there is no solution required,

then i completely disagree

Edited January 17, 2018 by iceyShardZ

[kuchn]

On 1/15/2018 at 8:10 PM, steelblueskies said:

i am mr23. you want challenge then do things the hard way, not the orbital nuke way

i will just quote this one because this seems to be a very common answer. i have seen this type of answer to every single post regarding the subject of lacking challenge for more than two years and it is , no offense, ridiculous.
the moment the customer is required to provide entertainment, in this case by nerfing oneself, something is wrong.
many people here seem to have the wrong perspective:
we are paying customers. we are the ones that can sit on a throne and ask for entertainment. why so? because we put food on their table. how so? by investing real income in their product. a product they chose to create in order to do exactly that -> provide entertainment for a living.
now there is the argument that everybody has the choice to consume the product or not to consume it. that is why so many players, me included, just play on and off.

but to say one should nerf oneself in order to enjoy a product that is paid for would be the same like:
going to the cinema and pay for a movie you find boring, just to sit there and read a book (play gameboy..whatever..) in order to have a good time. and then go home and say: "wow, the movie was awesome" sounds weird, doesn't it ?!

so please...i am a customer. i am a customer that seeks entertainment. DE's job is to provide that entertainment.
on the other hand: i'm free to consume an other product whenever i please.

Edit:
it is also DE's job to find solutions for a problem - not the customers job..so to hell with "bring suggestions"...i can if i want to, but if not i am not to blame...you want to blame me for not suggesting anything? pay me!

Edited January 17, 2018 by kuchn

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

5 hours ago, iceyShardZ said:

if my "veteran mode" is absolute Sh!t to you well then go ahead suggest your own solution,but if you are to suggest that there is no solution required,

then i completely disagree

Ultimately we’re at an impass here. You believe a Level 200 Corrupted Heavy Gunner is the antithesis of challenge. I do not. Level 1, 50, 150, it doesn’t matter. 

This was made apparent to me in 2016s Tennocon alert. The one against level 9,999 enemies. 

Easy. And I used a f***ing Mag. Post “nerf”. 

It was still, as you would say, “a hot knife through butter”. And I wasn’t even using an optimal set up for it. Most people used sleeping Equinox with Covert Lethality or Ivara Prowled through it.

Enemy level increase isn’t a challenge to me. Especially if you run with a squad. But that’s me.

“Because ultimately why else would you even grind your @ss off if there is no challenge to anticipate?”

Because that’s always been Warframe. The only difference between then and now is T4 Survival and Defense being the endgame. Those nodes still exist you just won’t be getting Prime parts.

Warframe, to me, has always been a grind game. If I want challenge I’ll go play some Dank Souls. That’s not to say I don’t welcome a challenge in Warframe, but if the answer DE comes up with is simply turn up the knob on the old levelometer, I’ll be a little upset. Because what’ll ultimately happen is me and my friends will simply continue to use the tried and true set ups and still cut through them like butter. That’s not rewarding to me.

Now I briefly touched on this in my larger comment, but something they could do is something like Diablo 3s Challenge Rifts. Where you’re forced to play a specific set up that you may not be used to and can’t change out of it unless you give up. Maybe even throw in some objectives while we’re at it. This would get people out of their comfort zones. Although Warframe lacks the depth of Diablo when it comes to Gear and Player interaction.

Another thing they could do is take another look at Nightmare nodes. Maybe add some new modifiers and new goodies to grind for.

And here I’ve gone on a tangent again. My bad. Difficulty in video games is a hit topic for me. It’s something I’m passionate about coming from the days of Nintendohard. I even made an article about it in my old Community! 

Ultimately my stance is that, with the way Warframe is designed, making enemies 50 levels stronger or even 100 levels stronger isn’t the answer. You'd need to disable players. But that’s something the community at large can’t stand *cough* Nullifiers *cough*. It’s a type of, “You can’t have your cake and eat it too” scenario. You can’t be a god and still have challenge. Have you ever seen One Punch Man?

Up the levels and all that will result is mass CC Spam with Instakill powers and armor/shield strip. Sounds like a helluva challenge to me #sarcasm.

Alright, I’m gonna end the conversation with this. I’ve said my piece. Feel free to respond, but I’m not gonna respond. Was a good conversation though.

[kuchn]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

Nintendohard

so true...
recently saw an article that described exactly how games become more and more easy...or was it a video?!
 

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

16 minutes ago, kuchn said:

so true...
recently saw an article that described exactly how games become more and more easy...or was it a video?!
 

I know I said that the last comment would be my last, but did want to touch on this since you brought it up.

The concept of Nintendohard has changed because of a few things.

1. Games had serious limitations in the past. This resulted in hard as nails games at times.

2. Many games back then we’re arcade games. They were specifically designed to be hard to drain your quarters. This even translated to the console market since many games then were just ports of existing arcade games.

3. As gaming has become more mainstream, there are more people who don’t actually like challenging games. Casuals. Although we still get our Souls and Cupheads of the world.

And there are more casuals than hardcore gamers. Which means that’s wherin the profit lies, unfortunately... other than lootboxes.

Edited January 17, 2018 by (XB1)Ivan of Jupiter

[iceyShardZ]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

You believe a Level 200 Corrupted Heavy Gunner is the antithesis of challenge. I do not. Level 1, 50, 150, it doesn’t matter. 

This was made apparent to me in 2016s Tennocon alert. The one against level 9,999 enemies. 

Easy. And I used a f***ing Mag. Post “nerf”. 

It was still, as you would say, “a hot knife through butter”. And I wasn’t even using an optimal set up for it. Most people used sleeping Equinox with Covert Lethality or Ivara Prowled through it.

Enemy level increase isn’t a challenge to me. Especially if you run with a squad. But that’s me.

this is such a weird argument

dude the reason level 200 enemies are insane is not necessarily their armor or health

its their damage

for non cheese methods,most frames can't just withstand this damage like its nothing

not even tanks

therefore you gotta play and evade and time your skills etc,

key word gotta, unlike most of the game,

which is exactly why your point is flawed here,because when you are talking about that alert,

the enemies were doing 0 damage,

and just like you i also easily walked through that alert like it was butter, with an equinox

so what exactly is your point here?

you know what though

no cap,forget the cap,i just want to get to fight the higher level enemies faster on survivals,i am sick and tired of waiting 30 minutes until things get interesting,

that's just 30 minutes of sleepwalking that are just too boring and tidius,

and saying "that's always been warframe" is not an answer,

you could of had someone asking for an open world map, you might tell him nah it wont work,

and he would tell you, "im sick and tired of warframe being a rat in a maze" and your answer would be

"that has always been warframe"??

and 

(see post below)

Edited January 17, 2018 by iceyShardZ

[iceyShardZ]

i would actually like this idea:

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

Now I briefly touched on this in my larger comment, but something they could do is something like Diablo 3s Challenge Rifts. Where you’re forced to play a specific set up that you may not be used to and can’t change out of it unless you give up. Maybe even throw in some objectives while we’re at it. This would get people out of their comfort zones. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by iceyShardZ

[Eljureo]

This, yes..

When playing my best setups anything bellow 1h survival is easy... Problem is when I only have 1h to play.

What can a man do then? For hardcore enjoyment we must wait forever...