Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[The_Real_Steve_Shady]

I have mixed feelings about the ember changes. I agree that world on fire killing everything at low levels is annoying, unfair, and deserved the nerf, but i feel that this is not the right approach.

First of all, ember is ridiculously squishy, so i don't see why there is emphasis on trying to make her an up close and personal frame. It also needs to be put into consideration that heat damage is probably the worst type of damage in the game. it's only effective on enemies like infested. If there is gonna be a rework, then give people incentive to actually touch ANY of her other abilities.

Absolutely no one uses fireball and the augment is a waste of space.

Accelerant is only used to compliment world on fires damage and stun..

Fire blast does not do nearly enough damage, and it's augment is seldom used for a reason. With only the ring inflicting fear with the augment, that means nothing in locations like PoE or in big rooms.

If up and personal is the motive here, give her the overheat ability back and get rid of that stupid fireball ability. and maybe make the augment for fire blast inflict fear with the bubble it shoots out and not just the ring. to counter fear spam, just make fire blast a non stack-able ability so that you have to wait x amount of time before using it again. with these changes, i would accept the world on fire rework with open arms. I don't mind the removal of afk aspects from the game, but don't make a frame practically useless. This is disappointing to people like me who got her years ago and not for the sole purpose of crappy afk play. Make the "burn everything to the ground" frame live up to it's name. it's only fair when there's plenty other frames that dish out loads of damage with no penalty. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by The_Real_Steve_Shady

[CryoSpecter]

On 2/3/2018 at 6:05 PM, Ailyene said:

While I actually agree with Chroma needing a fix, I am personally afraid that nerfing Chroma for their given reason opens the door to nerfing a lot of other buff abilities that don't use their off of Base Damage buff formula 'like all other damage boosting abilities'.

There are actually very few other buffs that work on Base Damage rather than Modded Damage in the game, Octavia's Amp and Mesa's Shooting Gallery are the only two I can think of.

Ember's Flash Accelerant, Saryn's Venom Dose, Frost's Freeze Force, Ember's Fireball Frenzy, Volt's Shock Trooper and Oberon's Smite infusion buffs go off of all mods minus Elemental Damage Mods.

Rhino's Roar, Mirage's Eclipse, Mirage's Hall of Mirrors, Ivara's Navigator, and Saryn's Toxic Lash go off of fully modded damage.

Just a heads up, playtesting reveals that Octavia is working as intended, as does Rhino's Roar to my knowledge. Mirage's Eclipse *works* but varies based on light levels unfortunately, so you will rarely get the full damage boost. Chroma, however, actually had a weird damage calculation in Vex armor that caused it to produce damage numbers that were inconsistent with his buff (the bug is listed on the wiki if you wanna read over it).

[Ailyene]

4 minutes ago, Cryoguard said:

Just a heads up, playtesting reveals that Octavia is working as intended, as does Rhino's Roar to my knowledge. Mirage's Eclipse *works* but varies based on light levels unfortunately, so you will rarely get the full damage boost. Chroma, however, actually had a weird damage calculation in Vex armor that caused it to produce damage numbers that were inconsistent with his buff (the bug is listed on the wiki if you wanna read over it).

Yeah, Chroma has a bug that causes him to double/triple dip for 50x+ multipliers right now with certain elemental combos.

I don't know why you quoted me to say that though, I am talking about Non-Modded Damage formulas vs Modded Damage formulas in mine and how they are factually incorrect by saying all the damage boosting abilities go off of Non-Modded formulas where only ~2 actual ones do and the vast majority, around ~14-ish, go off of Partial/Fully modded damage.

[Trichouette]

Il y a 2 heures, Bladefeather a dit :

And you should read the FAQ at the bottom of the first post.  It says the new math effects damage AND armor.  So yeah, Chroma's survivability is getting a huge nerf that it didn't need.

Huge nerf ?

The 3.5 armor multiplier (that is, by default, without strength mods) will be applied to his base armor instead of base armor + mods.

That means you'll multiply his 350 armor by 3.5, instead of the 735 armor you have thanks to steel fiber.

With that so called "nerf", you'll have 1225 armor without steel fiber, instead of the 2572.5 you get with steel fiber + vex

1225 armor means a 80% damage reduction, while 2572.5 armor is a 89% damage reduction.

 

Does that sound like a HUGE NERF to you ? And here i'm talking about 100% strength, without even adding intensify or blind rage.

Now my math could be completely wrong, but if they are not, I could even remove steel fiber (since it'll be obsolete compared to vex) and add even more strength or duration.

[TwilitAngel]

@[DE]Connor Have there been any thoughts about a tweak for Inaros' Devour ability? As of now I never find myself using it. The healing it provides is too slow and you can heal faster by simply using Desiccation. There are also some players who like to troll with the ability and keep the last enemy on a defense wave alive since it doesn't do much damage and teammates can't attack the enemy being devoured. Maybe tweak the ability to do %hp damage, have some synergy with Scarab Swarm, or even an execute? There's much that can be done, but as it stands now I feel the ability doesn't quite feel right in his kit. Not to mention at higher levels good luck trying to get the sand clone part of it off.

[CryoSpecter]

27 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

Yeah, Chroma has a bug that causes him to double/triple dip for 50x+ multipliers right now with certain elemental combos.

I don't know why you quoted me to say that though, I am talking about Non-Modded Damage formulas vs Modded Damage formulas in mine and how they are factually incorrect by saying all the damage boosting abilities go off of Non-Modded formulas where only ~2 actual ones do and the vast majority, around ~14-ish, go off of Partial/Fully modded damage.

I quoted you to let you know that technically the abilities are working correctly. The issue with Chroma is that there was the initial increase, then the increase applied itself again based on certain mod combinations as opposed to an intentional mechanic. This essentially worked by increasing the damage by (for example 200%), and then increasing THAT damage by 200%. So in reality, a 100 base damage weapon would go to 300, then 900, (just basic math examples, I'm just too lazy to use actual weapons for this).

The correct calculation SHOULD be increases damage by 200% (again, for example) (this works with all frame who have a consistent additive damage boost). So you can take your damage pre-buff and multiply it by 3 (which is the equivalent of increasing the ability by 200%). So, the 100 base damage weapon should only boost to 300. In that sense, the abilities don't focus on the mods you actually put on, since the mods technically stack with the ability as oppposed to complexly interacting with it.

In this sense, all buffs like this are technically not based on modded damage but also are? It's really weird, so I can understand why you say the statement is incorrect. I would say it is simply worded poorly in explanation, but their calculations should be correct from playtesting other abilities. I hope that made sense?

[kishisushii]

When will you change Rhino's passive? In my experience, it does not do anything that much.

[CryoSpecter]

@[DE]Connor Some common complaints I've seen about Ember is that the scaling damage of her 4 in this change won't address her poor scalability as a heat-damage frame. Would a possible solution for this be making Accelerant apply multiple times to enemies, like Banshee's Sonar? It would be a heavily internal synergy, but it would also benefit heat-based weapons/weapon builds and as such would have some team benefits.

[Sebith]

 

On 2/2/2018 at 8:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

EMBER

World On Fire - 5 seconds after casting, a percentage will begin counting up on the ability icon. As this percentage scales from 0% to 100% over 10 seconds, the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half.

 

I'm very surprised that World on Fire was nerfed (the ability Ember was used for) and her other two abilities (which are useless) was left untouched. This change is a disaster for Ember. She needs updates on all abilities to compensate, not just nerf of the best one.

Even with this change Ember still can kill everything by simply re-casting World on Fire each 5 seconds. So in my opinion this change didn't fix the problem. It only changed "afk" ability to "spam" ability and Ember gameplay experience will be even worse. So new players instead of running Ember will see running and spamming 4 Ember.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Sebith

[Aechmea]

12 minutes ago, Sebith said:

I'm very surprised that World on Fire was nerfed (the only ability Ember was used for) and her other two abilities (which are useless) was left untouched. This change is a disaster for Ember. She needs updates on all abilities to compensate, not just nerf of the best one.

 

[Ailyene]

19 minutes ago, Cryoguard said:

I quoted you to let you know that technically the abilities are working correctly. The issue with Chroma is that there was the initial increase, then the increase applied itself again based on certain mod combinations as opposed to an intentional mechanic. This essentially worked by increasing the damage by (for example 200%), and then increasing THAT damage by 200%. So in reality, a 100 base damage weapon would go to 300, then 900, (just basic math examples, I'm just too lazy to use actual weapons for this).

The correct calculation SHOULD be increases damage by 200% (again, for example) (this works with all frame who have a consistent additive damage boost). So you can take your damage pre-buff and multiply it by 3 (which is the equivalent of increasing the ability by 200%). So, the 100 base damage weapon should only boost to 300. In that sense, the abilities don't focus on the mods you actually put on, since the mods technically stack with the ability as oppposed to complexly interacting with it.

In this sense, all buffs like this are technically not based on modded damage but also are? It's really weird, so I can understand why you say the statement is incorrect. I would say it is simply worded poorly in explanation, but their calculations should be correct from playtesting other abilities. I hope that made sense?

Yep, thanks for clarifying that, I think I understand what you are saying now.

I had a different understanding from their explanation, though I can see how it can be also read as in making it consistent with other skills as in 'non-glitched' rather than by making it use a specific formula almost no other skill uses.

[Sebith]

33 minutes ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

 

Oh yeah, now i remember Pablo mentioned about it on stream. Thanks.

 

On 2/2/2018 at 8:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

ASH

Bladestorm - Upon activating Bladestorm, Ash’s clones will do the stabbing, leaving the player free to act. Ash can choose to join in the execution by using Teleport on a marked enemy.

Using teleport to join shadows is unnecessary "synergy". I think it should be done by pressing 4 again, because what if i want teleport to the enemy that run-in among marked enemies and i accidentally join the animation?

Edited February 5, 2018 by Sebith

[(XBOX)NeutralSilence]

3 hours ago, Caelward said:

@[DE]Connor

 

Ok, this is obnoxious. There are nine frames up for conversation here and you want to try and keep it all in one single thread? In what sensible manner do you expect your players to go through this whole massive mess of conversations and keep track of it all?

Would it really be that difficult to create a separate thread for every warframe to keep all that conversation in a somewhat organized manner? This forum is going to pieces and we can't keep track of all the different viewpoints. In response, related threads are being thrown on this huge heap that few people have time to try and process. You're hamstringing our ability to actually have a debate here, how are we supposed to trust that you're getting an accurate idea of what conversations are actually happening?

What happens when you pour every colour of paint into a single spot. You get a solid mass of drab brown/black slop that isn't good for much of anything. That's what I see when I look at this thread.

This thread is way too convoluted right now. There should be a separate thread for each Frame, cause this just feels like it's all being forced together just to try and make it seem like everyone is getting the same attention. 

[jiminatorx]

The game runs on the constant influx of new players. IMO all these issues are solved by putting a gating mechanism into place where new players and old players do not actually play the same missions but instead play missions scaled to the areas they can access. This would would prevent having parts of the story spoiled by others going into operator mode and so forth. The problem is not with ember, ember just makes it more obvious in low level areas. Almost endgame frame running low level missions is going to decimate the enemies without leaving newer players anything to do. It needs to be addressed from this approach. DE did something like that with the MR gating of missions in Cetus but more is needed. Much much much more is needed in terms of FIXING the new player experience.

[DarkSkysz]

With some frames get even more energy cost to their kit, will we get a primed streamline too?

[Himenoinu]

3 hours ago, Lil_Hydro said:

Resonating Quake is what we as creators of Warframe find to be the most unfun ability- “I want to enjoy this horde shooter, but where are the hordes?”

seems like the dev only thinking about them selfs. alot of people like having banshee RQ to get def mission done faster.

I use and abuse Banshee's RQ. From Lith to Bere. It just has to go in its current state. The unmodded Quake is trash though. Low dps, high drain, ineffective against 2 out of 3 factions and it has a rather dangerous mechanic if used only to prevent enemies from getting near the objective because of the sitting duck pose.

RL quakes don't last long, so it should be a short burst. Damage should ramp up at the epicenter with every passing second, but diminish fast with the distance. So if that's what the new RQ will be, it's a step in the right direction...only it should actually be the base mechanic for Banshee's 4.

They could make up a different mechanic for RQ, where quakes hitting targets affected by sonar will produce smaller scale replicas of the original quake (5-10m radius and 25-50% strength). The push-back and stagger shoul be replaced with a 1-3 seconds knockdown. The max range of the ability (at its weakest effect) shouldn't be bigger than 40 meters. If still a toggle ability, Banshee herself should suffer a 3 seconds kd - cancelling the ability - if more than 10-20 seconds have been spent shaking the ground.

[(PSN)Mr_ClapClap]

I Think after the Patch ar Ember Finaly worthless with Quake Banshee.

WOF and Quake are userless after lvl 40. Nobody play the Frames in High lvl's its only a Fun for an Low exterminate or Anorher low mission. After that patch the Frames would die , as so strong like the Old Bladestorm killer ash Total worthless now. But is good to know better buy Tomorrow the Frostpack for the Misa sydanna. Ember ist for the Mastery food :).

I think Warframe is a Teamplayer Based game , and with the patches (Nerf's) , we going to play more Solo.

What i didnt understand ist the Buff for the Mag. I read it Again and again but the shards do damage ?. Mag are only a Amor Shredder for Grineer / and a Bozz killer .

[(XBOX)DevilishSix]

3 hours ago, Cryoguard said:

Just a heads up, playtesting reveals that Octavia is working as intended, as does Rhino's Roar to my knowledge. Mirage's Eclipse *works* but varies based on light levels unfortunately, so you will rarely get the full damage boost. Chroma, however, actually had a weird damage calculation in Vex armor that caused it to produce damage numbers that were inconsistent with his buff (the bug is listed on the wiki if you wanna read over it).

Octavia maybe working as intended but that does not mean there isn't a problem.  Now with Chroma's nerf she is the most damage dealing frame out there.  She can go solo survival for hours at a time solo.  She can channel her ability forever in survival vids I have seen.  Her music sound and effects are beyond annoying.  Octavia needs about a 50% damage decrease or scaling removed and her ability sound and graphic effects need a rework. 

[Haeen]

On 2/3/2018 at 1:14 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

No, it isn't. It's not particularly difficult or taxing to do, and if you want to play a specific way you are welcome to form a group of like-minded individuals. Otherwise just hold back a little bit and everyone has a good time.

If you having a good time means 3 other people not having a good time, perhaps you shouldn't be playing with those 3 other people. That doesn't mean you have to play alone, but at the very least don't be so selfish as to insist that your fun is more important than their fun.

Show some courtesy.

The issue is this is a dual sworded argument.  Why should I alter the way I am playing for three other people?

Why can they not accomodate me? It doesn't become a matter of ourtesy, it becomes an issue of the majority saying "we dont like the way you play the game, so stop playing it.", that is grossly unjust.  It suggests that popular opinion should have a say in how individuals enjoy the game which is terrifically toxic in itself, and causes people to want to leave. Those 3 people can easily take a 4th in recruit chat, the singular person should be perfectly capable of palying the game as they desire, so long as it does not do anything to break the game.

 

 

On 2/3/2018 at 1:14 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

I didn't say that we should balance around lower levels. I actually agree that is a bad idea.

Which is why I would much rather have seen a damage and scalability buff to WoF combined with a near-universal nerf to energy economy to prevent effectively infinite energy.

I honestly think it should have been left alone to be honest.  The issue Ember has are beyond her WoF.  When was the last time an ember player used her 1 and 3?

Such a change hurts Ember and its only being done to satisfy the people who go "i didn't get the most amount of kills in a mission!"

Those are the same people who then wonder why they can't level as quickly in a group during a survival mission because they're off solo chasing kills.

[CaptainJLP]

Well these changes look great, seems like some people will also start running around with Arcane Helmets even more than usual, specifically ember and mag helmets, Sigh Excalibur Prime all over again essentially, I can survive with that but not with Arcane Helmets being a thing no one can obtain without buying them off other players.

Wheres Dev Workshop: Arcane Helmets Revisited? I've been waiting 2 years, and if I was on when they were removed them I would have been waiting for an eternity. Please re add a way to obtain the effects of these helmets at least, its unfair, kinda like maiming strike at start until you actually bothered to make them farm-able every 6-9 months.

 I do realize this is quite irrelevant to the topic but come on, they are quite game changing, because you don't have to use that extra mod slot for much more minimized effects than arcane helmets.

Edited February 5, 2018 by CaptainJLP

[GrimR3APER]

I was originally going to post a really big thing with ideas on Ash's bladestorm, but it got so big and involved that I just made a separate post for it. I really think Ash players should check it out and say what you think: 

 

[conratos]

About Ember: I like these changes so far. There is no need for her to continuously clear multiple rooms by just being there. These changes would still allow her to pulse her 4 to clear the rooms every now and then which seems good enough to me. This change should also improve her damage in higher level content which is kind of needed. She has been fine even past level 40. At least up to level 80 ish she can still kill everything with just her 2 and 4 at a reasonable time. At least when she it built to have close to maxed power strength and the player helps her by sniping armored enemies and ancients with weapons.

If her 4 is "nerfed" like this would it be ok if her 4 would not prevent energy gains from Trinity/Harrow? It is kinda annoying in public games where you have no control when they will use their abilities.

My personal wishlist is that Ember's 2 isn't changed much. It functions nicely if Ember builds her weapons around it so they get the full benefits of the increased amount of fire damage enemies take. I wonder if it would be op if the current augment to her 2 would be in the skill naturally and her augment would make it so that ALL damage Ember does (including damage done with weapons) is turned into fire damage. No more gas/viral/slash/corrosive/whatever procs but all the damage would be amplified by her 2 then. (Just a wild idea. It could be horrible for Ember.)

Ember's 1 is completely useless and should be reworked. At the very least the damage should scale better than it does currently. It could have bigger aoe/splash so the augment for her 1 would be easier to land. It could apply multiple fire procs to all enemies in the splash radius. It could reduce/remove armor from all the affected enemies.

Ember's 3 is half okay now. It works ok against bigger enemies that stay in one place. It is bit tricky to land properly so the enemies will end up right at the edge of the ring. It does very good damage against some bosses as long as they don't move away. Maybe it could also apply movement speed penalty to all the targets it hits. That would make them stay in the fire longer so kinda indirect buff to the damage it would do.

Edited February 5, 2018 by conratos

[JawNuts]

On 2/3/2018 at 3:03 AM, [DE]Connor said:

ASH

Bladestorm - Upon activating Bladestorm, Ash’s clones will do the stabbing, leaving the player free to act. Ash can choose to join in the execution by using Teleport on a marked enemy

Instead of using teleport for ash to join in with his clones for bladestorm, it may be better to allow us to press 4 again. This will save a bit of time aiming at a marked target (hopefully its still alive) and will come in handy in sticky situations where we need the invulnerability.

[phoenix1992]

4 hours ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

 

Too bad we are not reddit.

[(XBOX)GodfreyEvance]

there are welcome changes and totally unwelcome ones whether DE and Devs like it players always break games not only here in warframe but any looter, if something is bad fix it if something is good leave it. Chroma's Vex armor is good the way it is and thats all that warframe is good for, wanna make it a buff thats good break it and bet you guys will dump chroma like yesterdays news. eidolons have timers "first problem' and drop few resources 'second problem'. i game in the europe console region, though i changed it to north america to find people but i get few players online when am on only way to manage to kill that Eidolon solo is with a buff cant count how many time have had that creature walk out on me coz time was up. fix the grind not working frames. 

the division tried this and well gamers know what happened there