Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Vance.Stubbs]

2 minutes ago, Cryptix123 said:

This is what I mean when I say the Warframe community is slightly spoiled.

Other games: Considered very active if they make a new update once a quarter.

Warframe: New skin goes from unveiling to release in two weeks.

Yeah, vanity items get updated pretty consistenly/

What about broken/useless/outdated mechanics that DE haven't bothered to touch for years? 

Boohoo! Spoiled community!

[Cryptix123]

1 minute ago, Mover-NeRo said:

Did i miss smt?  what fixes do you mean? 

Basically, DE has a planned change of making it so WoF has its range and effeciency decay over time to half while its damage increases over time to double (I think it should be renamed to meltdown but no one listens to me.)

Steve will also be sharing some changes to her 1-3 on monday.

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

10 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

There was no mention anything on the defensive side of vex armor will be changed. Not that I am aware off! 

No, but I assume they will use the same calculation method for both Scorn and Fury, thus survivability also being nerfed

[NoelleAllogene]

DE, you basically nerf everything because someone reported "I can't get kills!! HELP! THIS FRAME IS OP!!"

Who the f**k complains they got killstealed in PvE games?? Really? I always grateful when Resonating Quake Banshee appears. I can simply sit and watch the game played itself.

[Autongnosis]

To be honest a lot of non disruptive buffs should work on Affinity Range, or at least get a fixed high range (20+m minimum).

IE:

• Mirage's Total Eclipse
• Chroma's Elemental Ward/Vex Armour
• Rhino's Roar
• Octavia's energy regen thing
• Ash's Smoke Shadow

Having them range-affected only makes it a pain to use in anything that isn't a VoIP coordinated premade comp basically. Even worse because many of those frames also tend to have Range as a dump stat in one or more builds... 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

3 minutes ago, Mover-NeRo said:

Did i miss smt?  what fixes do you mean? 

Ok nvm..found the info about dev Workshop.

There's also like 6 threads up decrying nerfs in the game when they're all just about autopilot being curbstomped.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

Two different abilities which got randomly the same duration? Please no. Then why cant we put excals abilities into his exalted blade, these are all abilities in which the exalted blade is used, why not combine them too?

[Volinus7]

You need to spam toggle to maintain WoF radius now lol. 

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

Im not interessted into recast or toggle, but I would like to see chroma changing element in the mission

[DroopingPuppy]

About a half of distance means WOF only hits the range enough to make the melee attack, means that we need to recast it each 5~7 seconds... It is pointless.

But, Ember will be the new Mag is false. Ember will be the new Ash, but even worse.

[HolySeraphin]

My ideas fro Ember to make other skills more relevant while still leaving WoF good:

Fireball: Leaves 5m AoE on the target´s feet that deals damage for a few seconds

WoF: The damage falls off with distance (50% at max range, in other words 200) but in turn Ember gradually gets an "overheat". This overheat increases energy cost of WoF by 200% when fully charged (takes 15 seconds) but in turn buffs the other abilities with special effects like:

1:Fireball: Fires three instead of 1 (spread)

2:Accelerant gets damage buff

3:Fireblast: 6 fireballs will fall towards the enemies at the beginning of the animation, pretty much like a meteor shower

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by HolySeraphin
wrong word

[Glavenusaur]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

There's also like 6 threads up decrying nerfs in the game when they're all just about autopilot being curbstomped.

Exactly this, crying over an ability that lets you basically sit AFK... It's like crying because the devs actually want you to play the game instead of just sit there like its a screen saver... oh the humanity... the horror... jesus christ...

[ChristianZX]

I need to point out that on the current dev-build they did increase the base damage increase of vex armor form 175 to 275 nether the post nor the stream mentioned this change also the current base rang is 10m i would guess the higher damage and low range are because of octavia's amp  

[HolySeraphin]

3 minutes ago, dataman88 said:

DE, you basically nerf everything because someone reported "I can't get kills!! HELP! THIS FRAME IS OP!!"

Who the f**k complains they got killstealed in PvE games?? Really? I always grateful when Resonating Quake Banshee appears. I can simply sit and watch the game played itself.

I hate RQ banshee and WoF ember because I CAN´T DO anything else. I play the game to move my god damn character. If I want to watch someone play I watch a video.

[kuciol]

5 minutes ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

Yeah, vanity items get updated pretty consistenly/

What about broken/useless/outdated mechanics that DE haven't bothered to touch for years? 

Boohoo! Spoiled community!

They want to start doing it right now and all there is on forums is crying. Players want changes but not the things they use.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

So as a long time warframe fan and experience player, I have seen my fair share of warframe's ins and outs.I have been on 5-6 hour solo endurance runs, and gone more with a good team and patient friends.I've seen level 5000s wage war on our souls, yet like everyone else, I play all the normal content regularly. I have many good friends that I share opinions with and get responses from their experience. Through this, I have reason for you to not change this ability, and it's not just because of it's performance, it's much greater than that. I have explained in the spoiler below. Please scroll through and read the points that intrigue you most.

What Chroma Is:

Spoiler

 

Chroma has a unique theme. He's the monster hunter of warframe. He deals high damage, and he takes high damage. That's it. His buffs are more like charmers, but he is a loner at heart. This is fine because this is the role he fills. He's a lone wolf. A lone wolf can STILL help a team though. We see this every day. You don't need to be a team buffer in order to be a team player. Every frame has their role. Chroma's was very simple. He does a lot of damage, and he take a lot of damage. Will this alone win him a defense mission? no. Will this aid in his rescue mission, not at all. That's not his place. In a defense mission, you need someone to kill and someone to defend. When it comes to killing, chroma was a fine option, though one of many, and for defense, frost is the helm, but volt, limbo, and gara do just fine. But filling roles ensures that a mission is done to the best of its needs.

 

 

 

2

What this has to do with Vex Armor's changes?
 

Spoiler

 

First off, while the multiplier dips where not intended, they were appreciated, and kinda make sense. Chroma is the elemental frame. The fact that he has a bonus when using elementals is ironically fitting. His damage was far surpassing of other yes, but did this really make the game that much different? Before Plains of Eidolon, the mainstream didn't even know about the chroma's unique combo with elementals. Why? because in most missions, it is not needed. Chroma's high damage only becomes necessary for endurance runners, who trust me, don't need him at all. When it comes to normal missions, his kill rate is far surpassed by frames like mesa, saryn, ember (Flash accelerant and Wof), mag, excalibur, nova, and equinox. His extreme damage is matched by frames like Harrow, Banshee, or Mirage, who's kill rate match his kill rate to the T. This is due to it effectively functioning the same, way, damage through weapons.Some actually give it as a Team buff, thus superceding Chroma.

The only time chroma became a mainstream "meta" frame was for plains of eidolon. It was here that Chroma's damage gained a niche use, and he was able to fit the damage role best, due to the eidolon's mechanics. Here's the thing though. Chroma may be the most popular for eidolon hunting, but he is not the best or the only one. Take away his extreme damage, and one of the other frames will take his place with no loss to performance and nothing changed but the warframe choice. I can think of 5 right now. Why chroma is used so much? Because he is easy and popular, but no mandatory. Changing him won't change the overall need to optimize. I call this the whack-a-mole effect. You take down one, another pops up. It's an endless circle you'll be running in that's further hindered by the constant output of new content. You won't stop the overall situation, only the method.
 

 

If you really want for this to end, you must fix the enemy.
 

Spoiler

 

In this case, increase the health of the eidolon. The common retort is that doing this will make frames like chroma mandatory, while making it too hard for frames like Atlas who don't offer any necessary damage. I can understand this logic, but this is not how it works in practice. The truth is while changing the enemy to be much harder and tankier would theoretically make frame choice narrower, in reality, this is already the case. When have you even seen a team that uses Atlas as its DPS? When have you ever seen a team that doesn't use a high damage buffer like harrow, volt, titania, mesa, or chroma? Teams are already optimized, and are already needed. All changing the enemy's health would do is make their roles more necessary and slow down the kill rate. In any game, a raid is always optimized for the situation, you'd never see an all-healer raid in WiW, or all titan raid in Destiny, and when optimized for damage, those bosses still take tons of shots to take down. In Destiny,  Gorgoroth has almost 4 million health, and he still take at least 30 minutes to kill with optimized builds with max damage, and no offense to the game, but our damage output is much higher, yet every boss is much weaker. Also, while raising the bar will make is harder, it still would not be impossible. Even if the Eidolon had billions of HP, a team of non-dps frames with powerful guns could take care of him within minutes. All bringing a dps frame would do is make it faster.

 

 

 

"But he's gonna give a buff to Allies Now!"

Spoiler

 

Making Vex Armor a team buff will actually increase the overall performance of a squad. Normally this would be good, but the issue lies with his role. He is not a team buffer, and by making this the case, you step on the shoes of frames that are designed for this (Octavia, Rhino, Mirage, etc.). By making his buff an aura, you're only making teams unnecessarily stronger in regular missions, which is not needed. It's the equivalent of Rhino giving his whole team Iron Skin. You're giving his whole team chroma's bread and butter. It's an unnecessary change. Instead of giving chroma another team buff, focus on fixing the buffs he already gives. How about making Elemental Ward like Roar (Only need to be in range on cast) or making Everlasting Ward innate? Each one of Elemental Ward's bonus is a huge help to the team, if it were actually used. Improve on these rather than boosting a team's already sufficient damage. Also, armor buffs are only helpful for armored frames, so this is not really a big help all in all.

 

 

 

What Really is the issue?
 

Spoiler

 

What has made Vex armor the unnecessarily overused buff it is now is rather HOW it's used over what is does. Many frames do exactly what chroma does performance wise and can do it better, but require different tactics or more skill to do. Mesa and Ivara come to mind (Not Peacemaker btw). How chroma became what he is is due to optimization with exploits. Self damage chroma can be considered an exploit as it was for Harrow, Rhino, and Trinity. I see no reason why chroma should be any different. I guarantee if this was changed, you'd see a huge change in chroma's "meta" status for eidolon hunting parties. By making Vex Armor a team buff, you're only asking for self-damage chroma to become nigh-mandatory.

 

 

 

What chroma needs is to become the tank he was designed for. He was designed to take damage and deal damage. When it comes to dealing damage, he is fine, and same goes for taking damage. The one thing I believe he needs is an aggro stat. Ironically, giving chroma aggro stats would balance him out, as he'll naturally be worried more about the damage he's taking rather than the damage he's dealing. It also makes his role secured and have a team use, without needing to buff his team. The damage optimized builds would not be used as much, and his ability would be used as it was intended, as a response power.

All in all, I think Vex armor should stay as is, quirks and all. I know it was no intended, but many thing's weren't but have been accepted without harm to the overall balance of the game. These unique aspects of a frame are what make their characters so memorable and unique. It's quite fitting actually that chroma's damage buff has a bonus to elemental damage and given his purpose, normally Chroma wouldn't hurt anybody, and for years he was fine as is with tweaks only needed to his 4 and 1 with minor rweaks to his 2. I see no reason to change it now.

Thank you

Edited February 4, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(PSN)KitsuneButai]

This is phenomenal. All of these changes are amazing and a great step in the right direction. Good job DE and I'm looking forward to these changes!! 

[DreamsmithJane]

10 hours ago, malekas said:

And yet every attempt completely misses the reasons why people think Mag is sub par.

See, here's the problem. People think Mag is sub-par. But she's not.

• Pull is actually consistent. It just doesn't necessarily do what you would like. With a high strength build, it's most effective against enemies towards the farther edges of its range. If you use it on enemies right in front of you, it will obviously throw them over your head. You may not like it, but it will do that every time. Count on it. Maybe use Crush instead, in that situation.
• Magnetize is one of the most impactful abilities in the game, and it doesn't even need weapons to work. Between baiting enemies to feed it and using Polarize, you can easily top your squad's damage without firing a shot, and kill faster than some of the most infamous farming frames. Yes, some weapons have better synergy with it than others, but that's not automatically a bad thing. Every frame and ability has its own unique synergies and quirks. I definitely think they ought to fix the hitscan + multishot problem, but it's hardly at the forefront of Mag's issues. You don't see me saying that Banshee's Sonar is too niche because it doesn't play well with status weapons. The augment allows you to panic-detonate Magnetize to disarm enemies if they get out, or if another threat shows up.
• Polarize strips armor and shields, and does tens of thousands of AoE magnetic damage, making it devastating against grouped enemies. Combined with Fracturing Crush or any other method of percentage armor reduction, it can fully remove armor even at sortie levels. And when used against enemies in Magnetize (or before Magnetize), it feeds the bubble for a large boost in damage. This last function is getting a big buff with the upcoming changes, including the scaling you said was missing.
• Crush immobilizes enemies in range, too, so that's kind of a non-issue, except for the few that are immune. I have never actually seen it fail to pick up an enemy that wasn't immune. Realistically, if you want to use Crush often, you've included Natural Talent or at least Speed Drift in your build, and these also help with rapid use of other abilities, anyway. With the augment, it greatly multiplies the armor-stripping power of Polarize (much like magnetic procs do for its shield damage), and forces enemies to stay inside of Magnetize bubbles. Now that it will be granting squad-wide overshields, there's even more reason to use it.
• A common complaint that you didn't list here is also being addressed. Mag's energy pool is getting buffed. Mag Prime will have a base energy capacity of 175, which at rank 30 and with Primed Flow can become 744. This potentially frees her from being tied to Zenurik, because her ability use cadence won't bring her so perilously close to 0 as quickly as it did before, and she will have time to replenish her stores without becoming vulnerable in the interim.

[Vance.Stubbs]

Just now, kuciol said:

They want to start doing it right now and all there is on forums is crying. Players want changes but not the things they use.

So why do you cry about crying when it's double as unproductive and hypocritical?

[ChromaUmbra]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Rasmus_ep88 said:

No, but I assume they will use the same calculation method for both Scorn and Fury, thus survivability also being nerfed

Yeah.  That scares me too.  If the nerf does effect his armor, I hope he gets something else that will let him keep his survivability.  Maybe buff elemental ward or something?

[QueenKharn]

The other positives are threefold.

And by that I mean your three team mates now potentially get to play the game.

Edited February 3, 2018 by KokoroWish

[Lancars]

I come up with an idea and no one bats and eye. Someone throws salt and the post gets posts in moment. Blah.

[Almagnus1]

2 minutes ago, Orblit said:

They're halving the ability's radius while doubling the damage + energy cost after a set timer...where's the nerf?

WoF at higher levels is used for CC, not damage... and the damage becomes completely trivial if you're up against the grineer because of armor.  The problem (especially with the augment) is the range reduction and increased energy costs.  The problem with World on Fire that everyone that's not really played Ember in high level seems oblivious too is that the damage is completely negligable as it stands now and World on Fire is only used for CC'ing stuff.

Armor basically negates fire damage, and with the armor scaling, Ember loses ALL of her damage potential.

2 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

You mean the exact same argument people made when Mag who used to be OP had her Polarize absolutely nuke Corpus units? And I'm sure there are more frames that the same argument can be made about.

I wasn't here for that, so I plead ignorance on whatever Mag's state was prior to that change.  Mag has always been a bad frame AFAIK.

2 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Nova is a good example. Her first even with damage reduction isn't very reliable and Antimatter drop only seems to do well if all enemies are proc'd under Molecular Prime.

However, Nova's 3 is one of the best movement skills in the game, so Nova's not really a good example of a bad frame.  Plus you have to actively engage with the primed enemies in order to do damage to them.

[kuciol]

If all you want is CC from fire quake than maybe adjust a build? You dont need power for that so go for max range. Most builds ive seen had 145 range, go for 290 instead this will give you about the same range but you will have to sacrifice dmg for it.

[DroopingPuppy]

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Rather than being an unfortunate price to pay for the damage boost, the decreased range on long channels was an equally important part of the change. Being able to kill enemies within 42 meters just by walking around is disruptive. And yes, that's with all available +range mods. That's the problem. Being able to mod for 280% range naturally means that 100% range is going to feel a bit lacking in the worst case scenario.

The idea here is twofold. One, if you want to maintain a high range, you're going to need to reset it, so not only do you have to pay attention, but you're going to burn more energy flipping the toggle. I believe the expectation is that you'll decide it's not worth doing that constantly. Two, at full channel, it does double the damage in a quarter of the area, meaning it scales much, much better when used against enemies in your immediate vicinity, and is much better at dealing with the most apparent threats.

Also remember that even double the channeling cost is half of what Banshee normally pays for Sound Quake. So that part is not really anything to sweat, especially when you're also killing faster.

That's literally false. Ember usually has +45% range and WOF's range is basically 15m, so usually it have about 21m radius. Cut in half means it only has about 10m, and you better make the slide attack by the whips or you need to turn down and cast WOF all the times.