Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, Glavenusaur said:

I actually like to play my games with a little challenge instead of just sit there on auto pilot to grind like its a job, If you hate the grind so much that you want to just sit there and complete missions like a mindless zombie then be my guest, but then maybe warframe isn't really for you as the fun in the game is to grind for the stuff you want. Fortunately the developers agree with people like me who actually want to play the game and not use it as a screen saver... deal with it and git gud...

You keep on embarrassing yourself.

You want challenge in WF - play anything post level 80 and stop demanding the game to be balanced over content that is more than 4 years old.

[Glavenusaur]

11 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It is not necessary to strawman you on this issue. You are fractally wrong anyway. Functionally this is a nerf to Ember at high levels, not a buff, as Ember’s strength at those levels is in her CC, and this change drastically reduces the range at which she can apply it.

 

Now, it’s not the end of the world, as playing high levels with Ember required constant mobility anyway, but it’s still a stupid thing to do, with the range reduction. Enjoy seeing more Equinox on the starchart, but still almost never Ember in high levels anyway.

 

Make no mistake, i know this still wont make ember better for anything past lvl 80, but it definitely is a step in the right direction hopefully DE will improve ember further on this track, but people here seem to act like she was perfect the way she was, which i'm sure we can all agree she wasn't.

[FrostedMike]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

No it won't due enemy Armor scaling. Do coupe of runs with builds with different power Strength values and evaluate the output of WoF. It falls out pretty around 60-80 even with high power values.
 

With all due my respect, this is nonsense. 
Please do run the builds with stock and high range and you will notice that enemies are able to outzone FQ even on current range, especially with the 5 enemy cap. Making the range lower and the cost higher does not benefit FQ builds at all since they don't care for power output.
 

 

In conclusion you keep on speaking about level 40 content. I don't.

I don't care for the ant stomper builds since I never ran them.  I don't compare invulnerability and high output (Hysteria) to damage that hits like wet noodles due to enemy Armor Scaling and 0 DR.

Please, everyone has an opinion, but If you think that the "ember must be balanced for star chart" opinion is the only one - see you after couple of weeks in the nerf Equinox topics.

But why double damage won't deal double damage? The armor scaling is bad, sure, but it doesn't complitly negate damage, and an increase to damage is an increase to the amount of the damage the enemies take, so the armor scaling excuse is irellevant to the changes. I ran FQ Ember in sorties, believe me...
Yeah, Ember doesn't scale well into late game and the changes won't change much in it either, but here is the deal: you said that not even high range FQ is enough for the end game, so why more damage and less range is even a nerf? This apply to sortie level missions as well.

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I’m sure that you’re a lovely chap and that you mean well...but this post is pure and utter nonsense. Insane armour scaling means that doubling WoF’s damage at the cost of more than halving its range (because of how the radius of a circle relates to the area of that circle, see?) will not in any way turn WoF into a scaling endgame ability for damage. Firequake and Flash Accelerant are how Ember deals out CC and enhanced damage, and Firequake’s effect just got nuked.

 

Now, it’s not the end of the world, Ember will still work up to Sortie level, but trying to call this anything other than a nerf is daft.

I didn't say it's a buff in the end, It just leave Ember mostly unchanged. What will probubly happen after the changes is most likely that Ember will just need to get closer to enemies as the changes intended. Also, what we got so far are not the final numbers, who knows what will happen next.

[Glavenusaur]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

You keep on embarrassing yourself.

You want challenge in WF - play anything post level 80 and stop demanding the game to be balanced over content that is more than 4 years old.

Haha, sorry but the changes are coming whether you like it or not, and i'm genuinely happy that they are, deal with it...

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Glavenusaur said:

 

Make no mistake, i know this still wont make ember better for anything past lvl 80, but it definitely is a step in the right direction hopefully DE will improve ember further on this track, but people here seem to act like she was perfect the way she was, which i'm sure we can all agree she wasn't.

Do you honestly believe that DE will continue to adjust her to give her significant damage output in exchange for the savage nerfing of her CC potential? 

 

I am telling you, here and now, that they won’t. They’ll say ‘Look, WoF does double damage now!’ and call it a day.

 

End result will be that Ember still can’t do high levels using her abilities for damage, but the way that she does work now will have been crippled, and DE will call it good.

 

 

Because of players like you.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, FrostedMike said:

But why double damage won't deal double damage? The armor scaling is bad, sure, but it doesn't complitly negate damage, and an increase to damage is an increase to the amount of the damage the enemies take, so the armor scaling excuse is irellevant to the changes. I ran FQ Ember in sorties, believe me...

Sorties are not the same as endurance runs, please (or fissure runs for that matter), especially if you play Co Op. 
You also fail to recognize Armor Values and why do some enemies die under the effect of FQ

 

3 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

Yeah, Ember doesn't scale well into late game and the changes won't change much in it either, but here is the deal: you said that not even high range FQ is enough for the end game, so why more damage and less range is even a nerf? This apply to sortie level missions as well.

11 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Ember does scale well in end game currently as long as you can rely on FQ. But you won't be able to do that anymore.

[Gravitus123]

Just why nerf the range and increase energy drain instead of just one or the other why both.With the decreased range Ember is gonna be even worse at high levels since she depends on a long range firequake to keep enemies from shooting her now by the time she gets to them she wil die.Id be fine with the increased energy drain but not with both decreased range and increased energy drain

[Sorenxoras]

6 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

In conclusion, the changes are ment to give the rest of the squad a chance to do something while not nerfing Ember to the ground. You lose range and energy efficiance in return for double the damage. So all the changes player will have to do with their playstyle is to get closer to enemeis like the rest of the squad... The energy efficiance? Just keep track of it, Valkyr also have it and I can keep Hysteria on for ages...

Now, as a Valkyr main i can disagree with this quite a bit. This will only make her worse at high level missions. You may or may not have noticed, but energy leaches and nullifies get very prominent in higher level missions, and that fucks up the increased energy drain even worse than it already is. for valkyr it made me find another build that worked well enough and wasn't complete cheese like hysteria builds can be. but Ember? WoF is the only good ability she has. giving it the same treatment as hysteria is a pretty bad nerf. It's damage is great early on sure, but later on it doesn't do anything. enemies still shoot you dead, but now they can get closer without risk. Firequake was great because when you maxed out range and duration, you didn't notice the lack of damage because it didn't make a difference anyways because you got 100% knockdown. this gave you the time to shoot or smack them until they died. you still needed to watch your &#! to keep up with larger groups, but it was a way to make her survive. this nerf is just gonna make it that much harder to keep her alive.

[Glavenusaur]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Do you honestly believe that DE will continue to adjust her to give her significant damage output in exchange for the savage nerfing of her CC potential? 

 

I am telling you, here and now, that they won’t. They’ll say ‘Look, WoF does double damage now!’ and call it a day.

 

End result will be that Ember still can’t do high levels using her abilities for damage, but the way that she does work now will have been crippled, and DE will call it good.

 

 

Because of players like you.

Again, it wasn't like she was amazing to begin with, She was broken. At least DE are doing something and actually forcing people to "play the game" with her instead of just sit there on auto pilot, i really feel sorry for DE honestly... they can just never please you guys at all...

[phoenix1992]

7 minutes ago, Glavenusaur said:

Haha, sorry but the changes are coming whether you like it or not, and i'm genuinely happy that they are, deal with it...

Which is equal to "get over level 40" in what way?

Dear @Glavenusaur in almost 3 pages you have shown minimum knowledge of the game, 0 respect towards other players and their opinions and frankly disgusting gloating. Does it make you feel good that the same Ember cancer build that is dominating you precious Fissures will keep on dominating or swap to equinox, on the expense of players that actually want to keep on "gidding gudder" in the late game?

 

1 minute ago, Glavenusaur said:

Again, it wasn't like she was amazing to begin with, She was broken. At least DE are doing something and actually forcing people to "play the game" with her instead of just sit there on auto pilot, i really feel sorry for DE honestly... they can just never please you guys at all...

Again, opinion that is not fact and you can't back it up with anything but feels.

Edited February 3, 2018 by phoenix1992

[(PSN)Dublincore]

27 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am sorry mister Dublincore, I speak out of a lot of experience with Ember for the last 2 years and am point issues without entering wall of texts.
It is relatively easy to go into a rant about Armor Scaling, eximus units and AoE from enemies, but I assume that everyone is on the same page considering that.
Yet it seems like this is not the case.

I don't think that the argument "i speak out of a lot of experience" only to undermine other opinions works wery well here. Anyway, I've been using Ember and loved her gameplay too for months, but i keep calling this a change and not a Nerf. There are good analysis in other recent threads on this topic that at least don't assume to be the only one right about It. Again, logical fallacy is a beast, and if you're absolutely sure that all reasons are on your side well, i really can't nor won't say anything else.

Edited February 3, 2018 by (PS4)Dublincore

[FrostedMike]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Sorties are not the same as endurance runs, please (or fissure runs for that matter), especially if you play Co Op. 
You also fail to recognize Armor Values and why do some enemies die under the effect of FQ

 

Ember does scale well in end game currently as long as you can rely on FQ. But you won't be able to do that anymore.

What I was trying to say is that enemy level and armor scaling is not even a factor in these changes. You deal more damage for less range, in the end it change nothing more than how close you run near enemies. You know, I will even increase her armor and health pool if needed, I personally see no difference.

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

does his Path of Statues augment work with Atlas's rubble mechanic?

[Glavenusaur]

7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Which is equal to "get over level 40" in what way?

Dear @Glavenusaur in almost 3 pages you have shown minimum knowledge of the game, 0 respect towards other players and their opinions and frankly disgusting gloating. Does it make you feel good that the same Ember cancer build that is dominating you precious Fissures will keep on dominating or swap to equinox, on the expense of players that actually want to keep on "gidding gudder" in the late game?

Can you please stop straw manning me already? i never once gloated throughout the entirety of this thread as there is literally nothing to gloat about here to begin with, nor am i obliged to show respect to people literally just saying "oh you ruined ember! now i wont buy prime access at all! Screw you DE!!!" respect is earned not given, unless that is if you have legitimate criticisms like @BornWithTeeth has given me about how this wont make ember any better in late game, which is something i agree with but still think these changes are step in the right direction.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Glavenusaur

[steelblueskies]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It scales for first few seconds on damage received into health , you can cast multiple domes to increase health and covers a dome area , above and below as well not something you can do with the glass wall,

glass wall only affects horizontal area ,

they will each have their place , but one cannot replace the other completely.

meanwhile noones touching the other reasons people don't generally want her around. the ability range blocking of the wall intended or not.

the immunity of vitrified targets to new status effects, from stripping damage reduction/armor to outright damage procs.

the *seeming* immunity to DEATH of targets that should be dead and gone but are still locked into vitrify animations, still eating bullets hit indicators etc.

at present its more of a semi spam visual clutter with a side of potential team debuff cc in a group, especially one that is not prefab. mostly just needs a little tlc to fix it up on those ends, but it doesn't seem to be on anyones radar at present. 

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)tristarwayne said:

With gara buff with her wall scaling. Would this push frost out of defenses since his globe doesn't scale?

in short, no.

 

someone implemented the types to store the values ( think a predefined size of box or soda at a fast food joint) such that the box used to store the maximum possible health of snowglobe is smaller than the one used to store the maximum possible damage value an enemy can inflict. imagine trying to fit an extra large soda worth of drink into a small size cup. you can definitely fit less than the small size cup into it worth of drink, but more doesn't work.

ostensibly this was done so because it made sense in the context of enemy scaling forces players out as a design choice, which makes a lot more sense in extract anytime survival than 5 wave defense, but that is a totally separate design issue discussion. this is mainly mechanics and specific comparison.

however as it has INVULNERABILITY for a limited window during its "scale this instance of a bubbles health with damage taken over this time period", people can sidestep the impossible to prevent oneshotting of globes health by recasting to stay in the invulnerability state where they functionally take no damage at all.

given cryopods have the same "less health maximum than possible single tick/hit of damage" as enemies scale this also necessitates a barrier for it. especially with enemies with rapid fire hitscan weapons and increasing accuracy/reduced miss chance inherent with scaling as well.

 

its one of the few arguments where a sortie defense with a revivable target is potentially better than the fixed cryopod that can be "one and done" dead. then again you can (no longer anyway) not have a loki troll switch teleport a cryopod outside the map into instant mission failure either.

 

this is especially true when you find the difference in the "size of the boxes" is so large that even garas targetable defensive ability offering up to 90% dr at one point would not be enough eventually. she merely had the ability to potentially do something other than recast in place every two seconds to maintain defense at those points.

but it has been made clear that operating at those levels deep in the scaling system was never intended and is effectively just "suffered" or allowed to exist for now.

for level tiers well below those points in scaling, heck. way more works. bring energy restores and park a nyx in assimilate. sleep the room. chaos everything. or just kill it. frost isn't required for those tiers in the first place unless a group of four (which increases spawn counts for enemies) can't manage to take down a single enemy out of a group clumped together in several seconds together.. and a bubble won't do too much to stop them slowly slowly beating a pod down over time even at low levels, inside it. neither will letting vitrified targets sit long enough to unvitrify inside the wall and not recasting the lockdown or killing them outright.

 

 

[(XBOX)AlingsasArrende]

Well, removing armour is only useful against certain enemies, while it will always be useful to restore shields. It makes sense having the specific usage as an augment while having the universal usage as the standard.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, FrostedMike said:

What I was trying to say is that enemy level and armor scaling is not even a factor in these changes. You deal more damage for less range, in the end it change nothing more than how close you run near enemies. You know, I will even increase her armor and health pool if needed, I personally see no difference.

Dear FrostedMike,

Let me remind you that you are talking about two factors in the post level 100 game:

a) A lot of AoE damage.
b) A frame with low effective HP and 0 Damage Reduction.

Saying "hug that bombard closer" is not an effective strategy, especially when you consider that the exact Range of WoF is pretty low. When you cut it by half, your effective range with melee weapons will be higher than WoF/FQ.

[TinySuperSalad]

2 minutes ago, Glavenusaur said:

step in the right direction.

Wow... the right step to the right direction is balancing all the warframes so they're all equally capable of all levels.

Your idea of "right direction" is bias and it sounds like you are doing a bandwagon for "hate ember" without actually trying to push her for a high level content.

[DatDarkOne]

I've heard this "Straw man" phrase being used in this forum so much that it has completely lost it's meaning.  

[Twilight053]

I'm sorry, but don't you mean:

A) Doubled Damage but Half Range - a positive and a negative, or:

B) Doubled Damage but Half Efficiency - a positive and a negative, not:

C) Doubled Damage but Half Range and Efficiency - a positive, a negative and a negative?

Edited February 3, 2018 by Twilight053

[Keltik0ne]

Well, its a straight up nerf, since the only reason people were using embers later on was for the WoF aug CC effect, so most were at 40% power str anyway.

[Bouldershoulder]

Ash suggestion:

 

6 hours ago, Bouldershoulder said:

1) Quick press of 4 activates normal marking mode (i.e. press 4 to enter marking mode, 3 marks per target, press 4 again to start killing);

2) Holding 4 activates continuous mode with only 1 mark per target, but the clones start attacking the moment a target is marked, and maybe a good bit faster.

 

@All please, be concise. Especially those that "have already mentioned in this thread" and anyway post a wall of text.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Bouldershoulder

[Somniavi]

Regardless of your opinion of a Banshee in Hydron, on the rare occasion I actually do see a banshee in public they never use their 4 outside of defence/hydron. I think the ability needs adjustment overall or reworked and not just have the augment nerfed and as others have pointed out, frames like Saryn can achieve the same results as her.

In regards to Chroma and that he shouldn't be able to one shot Teralysts... So many other things in the game can and especially rivens but Chroma (who is way more accessible) which allows every weapon to work on an equal level of them gets nerfed? I agree with the other decisions and that the Vex armor despite all this time hasn't been working as intended, but I think that isn't very good reasoning for his nerf in regards to damage. 

Ember well as many pointed out is a straight nerf and I share my opinion regarding Banshee. I think her abilities should be reworked as I rarely see an Ember and when I do, I only see her pressing 4. If you nerf the reason why people use said frame then nobody will use that frame.

I think the other adjustments are fair and an improvement generally for other frames.

[Sorenxoras]

DR/ if that isn't an indicator of a D&D/Pathfinder player i don't know what is. As for the damage reduction.....  I think a great passive for her would be 50% damage reduction (on top of her 100 armor) when on fire. It'd be a unique risk/reward for her. the energy regeneration she has already when on fire...... is basically nothing. her energy pool is pretty big and it doesn't really work when most ember builds have WoF going all the time which negates all energy gain save for energy orbs.

[FrostedMike]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Dear FrostedMike,

Let me remind you that you are talking about two factors in the post level 100 game:

a) A lot of AoE damage.
b) A frame with low effective HP and 0 Damage Reduction.

Saying "hug that bombard closer" is not an effective strategy, especially when you consider that the exact Range of WoF is pretty low. When you cut it by half, your effective range with melee weapons will be higher than WoF/FQ.

Strategy is something else. I usually have less trouble getting close to them as I don't even bother, I just headshot the bombard and don't wait for WoF to catch up and burn him.

Why do I even keep trying? This argument is useless.