Regarding Forma compensation for a number of frames you intend to rework.

[SenorClipClop]

7 hours ago, TALISMAN_XVII said:

I'll use Chroma as an example. I won't be as naive as to assume everyone, but a large chunk of the playerbase utilise and use min/max Chroma builds for his 2nd and 3rd abilities currently. He's that unstoppable tank you call on when the rest of the squad needs it, effective at solo gameplay and of course as of recent, hunting the Eidolon on the plains. If your intention is to (and lets not hide it) change the roles of a few of these Warframes quite dramatically, then I feel adequate compensation (forma) should be given to allow players to adapt their builds. It's been a good 4 years and you provide an in-game market heavily reliant on microtransactions, please don't abuse the excuse of being in the eternal "Beta". Thank you.

Chroma's role isn't changing. He's still going to be an excellent buffer, likely still the strongest in the game. And now his strongest buff will be team-wide. The only change to Vex is that now the numbers you see on your HUD will be the buff numbers you actually get. Numbers which seem pretty fair to me. DE is changing Vex because they don't want their bosses (Teralysts) one-shotted. I think that's fair, too.

I don't really see how building Chroma will change, though. With the info from the Dev Workshop, I see myself building Chroma with the exact same Mod setup. The only significant difference is that Range may become a worthwhile stat on our dragon buddy, so I'll probably experiment with balanced builds that don't have negative Range.

[MickThejaguar]

1 minute ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

How? Everyone is getting a few. Does DE not only have a set number of their own digital items? LOL

Every free forma given is one less chance for someone to spend plat on them. Not only that but there is literally no reason to do it. The changes aren't live and probably won't be live for another week. The earliest they could possibly go live is in 3 days. And in 3 days you would have the 3 forma that you are so desperately need if you started building now. 

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

They won't compensate anything and they don't need to.

We decide which frame to invest and forma in.

We bear the consequences which is why people don't like nerfs all that much.

Always diversify your investment.

Never only forma or focus on one frame.

Because historically, DE nerfs every single frame.

There is no frame that is ever untouched because there is no frame that is ever balanced in the opinion of this community.

Anything that is deemed balanced now become unbalanced everytime another frame or weapon is released or nerfed in some way.

It's just a round robin nerfing spree going round and round for the last 4 years, and it's never gonna stop.

I am already seeing people use Saryn on Hydron now and it's more or less as effective as a Banshee.

So, I am almost certain the next wave of nerf threads will be on Saryn.

Best of all, Saryn has been balanced before so we are likely making that U-turn..again.

So, do yourself a favour and just diversify.

Edited February 4, 2018 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Twilight053]

They're not going to reimburse your forma just because a gear is nerfed. Especially since you can earn the forma back and rebuild your gear easily.

The only time they should is when there is absolutely no way to rebuild your gear without restarting your account or paying for it (a la MMO skill tree and Focus system).

Edited February 4, 2018 by Twilight053

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

You mention ember, and I find my self wondering because I haven't heard them say anything. What are your concerns about Ember? She's currently my favorite for unyielding swarms of enemies like defense and survival because there's usually so many targets swarming the field it doesn't matter if she's overpowered AF. If they nerf her into the ground it doesn't really mean I won't be using her anymore, it might lead to me using more rhino for those missions which is probably a good thing, but I haven't heard anything about the matter.. So now I'm curious exactly what it is they're planning that is concerning you.

[MickThejaguar]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

You mention ember, and I find my self wondering because I haven't heard them say anything. What are your concerns about Ember? She's currently my favorite for unyielding swarms of enemies like defense and survival because there's usually so many targets swarming the field it doesn't matter if she's overpowered AF. If they nerf her into the ground it doesn't really mean I won't be using her anymore, it might lead to me using more rhino for those missions which is probably a good thing, but I haven't heard anything about the matter.. So now I'm curious exactly what it is they're planning that is concerning you.

Look at the changes on the Dev Workshop. To get there, go to the forum home page and look at the section that says "General News & Information". It should the last category in that section.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

43 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

Look at the changes on the Dev Workshop. To get there, go to the forum home page and look at the section that says "General News & Information". It should the last category in that section.

I was looking for it before I commented, I'll follow your instructions, thank you.

[Sibernetika]

With all the white knights here I'm not touching this but the white knights, but warframe devs likes to claim transparency and for 3 years they sat there fully knowing that this is a bug and didn't inform the community at all letting us believe that this is actually working as intended, so yes they could have said ages ago look this isca bug and will be looked at in a future date.. I'm not going to request forma since I have a 7 day job and don't have abundant of time to farm forma and relevel frames and weapons other than going to cheese for xp on hydron and akkad.. I have to buy my forma most of the time... But as the knights clearly states I don't have the right to request anything. 

[UncaIroh]

I just checked my own builds and generally there isn't much to change here. The build for chroma is still the same even with the change in math.

Similarly, for ember I will need to mod for a bit more range and less power str to mitigate the new range-damage interaction, but it's not likely to force me to change an existing polarity. For WoF you will come out with slightly more damage at a shorter distance at max damage/min range.

So unless you intend to totally abandon using these frames you don't need the forma or repolarization.

I don't know about your situations, so please look whether or not you will need to change your polarities before screaming "Refund!" You WILL end up putting the forma back into those frames some time in the future when they buff everything again because power creep.

Edited February 4, 2018 by UncaIroh

[MickThejaguar]

3 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

With all the white knights here I'm not touching this but the white knights, but warframe devs likes to claim transparency and for 3 years they sat there fully knowing that this is a bug and didn't inform the community at all letting us believe that this is actually working as intended, so yes they could have said ages ago look this isca bug and will be looked at in a future date.. I'm not going to request forma since I have a 7 day job and don't have abundant of time to farm forma and relevel frames and weapons other than going to cheese for xp on hydron and akkad.. I have to buy my forma most of the time... But as the knights clearly states I don't have the right to request anything. 

Classic tactic. Use a commonly known derogatory term to help dismiss any points brought up by people that disagree with you. And many of my (and others') points still stand. You're not going to have to reforma your warframe from the ground up. Forma blueprints are easy enough to acquire that you could easily get at least a few in the span of 30 minutes. You yourself even admit that you could easily just level everything at hydron and akkad, so that's not even a complaint. And again, if you just build a forma every day until the changes come out, you'll most likely have the forma required adjust your frames for the changes. If you don't have enough time for that, then maybe you're just playing the wrong game buddy. This game by default requires you to actually sink either time or money into it.

[TALISMAN_XVII]

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Chroma's role isn't changing. He's still going to be an excellent buffer, likely still the strongest in the game. And now his strongest buff will be team-wide. The only change to Vex is that now the numbers you see on your HUD will be the buff numbers you actually get. Numbers which seem pretty fair to me. DE is changing Vex because they don't want their bosses (Teralysts) one-shotted. I think that's fair, too.

I don't really see how building Chroma will change, though. With the info from the Dev Workshop, I see myself building Chroma with the exact same Mod setup. The only significant difference is that Range may become a worthwhile stat on our dragon buddy, so I'll probably experiment with balanced builds that don't have negative Range.

Yup, you're preaching the choir mate. I stated I was in favour of the majority of the changes. This thread isn't or wasn't about the actual changes to the frames.

Edited February 4, 2018 by TALISMAN_XVII

[rune_me]

4 hours ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

 

So you're calling me lazy? Cause I'm one of those so called lazy people who don't wanna reinvest in their gear. I, the guy who spent an entire week building my Chroma, and my Ember. I didn't buy forma off the market, no I farmed for it, the resources to craft 'em, and waited the 24 hour waiting period to collect my forma. That's MY time I wasted leveling the frame of my choosing only to have it nerfed by some haft baked energy drain ramp, and range reduction. I'm so, so happy I now gotta spend more of my precious time farming for more forma (say about a week, I don't by forma off the market), wait 24 hours and level my frame for each day. But of course I gotta have folks like you spit in my face because you don't want DE handing out free forma. GG, thanks. You're quite the intellectual.  

An entire week? It's just a week. It's also just a videogame. The purpose of a video game, the ONLY purpose, is for you to have fun while you play it.

Did you enjoy and have fun while building your Chroma and Ember, farming the forma, testing out your build, accomplishing something on your own?

If yes, then you did in fact not waste a week - then you spend a week with a game that did exactly what a game is supposed to do: entertain you.

If no, you did not have fun, why would you even have done it in the first place? - you could have then just stopped at any time, and it would seem you choose of your own free will to waste your week doing something you did not enjoy.

[Sibernetika]

30 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

Classic tactic. Use a commonly known derogatory term to help dismiss any points brought up by people that disagree with you. And many of my (and others') points still stand. You're not going to have to reforma your warframe from the ground up. Forma blueprints are easy enough to acquire that you could easily get at least a few in the span of 30 minutes. You yourself even admit that you could easily just level everything at hydron and akkad, so that's not even a complaint. And again, if you just build a forma every day until the changes come out, you'll most likely have the forma required adjust your frames for the changes. If you don't have enough time for that, then maybe you're just playing the wrong game buddy. This game by default requires you to actually sink either time or money into it.

Since when is white knight a derogatory? I'm just stating DE could be more transparent about their bugs that they treat as working as intended instead of keeping quiet about it for 3 years.. Meaning I spent real money on a frame knew was defective without informing us.. If it was just a nerf then I would have been okay with it, but this is a buff and a bug fix.. That bug being the reason why many of those builds are the way they are formad, and build. 

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, Sibernetika said:

With all the white knights here I'm not touching this but the white knights, but warframe devs likes to claim transparency and for 3 years they sat there fully knowing that this is a bug and didn't inform the community at all letting us believe that this is actually working as intended, so yes they could have said ages ago look this isca bug and will be looked at in a future date.. I'm not going to request forma since I have a 7 day job and don't have abundant of time to farm forma and relevel frames and weapons other than going to cheese for xp on hydron and akkad.. I have to buy my forma most of the time... But as the knights clearly states I don't have the right to request anything. 

I don't disagree that DE should have told us, or better yet, just fixed the bug a long time ago.

But in all honesty, we are lying if we claim that we believed it worked as intended. We all saw those insane red numbers from Chroma. We all saw him one-shotting terralysts like it was nobody's business. We all knew very well that he was broken and would eventually get nerfed.

Also: you can request anything you want, but the "knights" as you call them are in no position to give you back your forma ... if I could give out free forma to other players I would happily pass it around to everyone. Since this thread is not in the feedback section it's not that likely that anyone from DE is really gonna read your post and even if they did they are free to ignore your request. Again this is nothing I or anyone else here can control. Request all you want, though.

[MickThejaguar]

2 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Since when is white knight a derogatory?

Since people on the internet started using it as an insult? 

7 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

I'm just stating DE could be more transparent about their bugs that they treat as working as intended instead of keeping quiet about it for 3 years..

More likely than not, DE didn't fix the problem because it wasn't an issue at the time. DE only recently started to care about because people have been using Chroma to trivialize their newest strain of content (Eidolons).

3 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Meaning I spent real money on a frame knew was defective without informing us..

And that was a choice you made. DE didn't force you to spend money on the game. Forma can easily be acquired without spending plat. Even you do have a 7 day job, if you have time to play warframe in the first place then you have time to go farm a few forma blueprints. 

[Rhekemi]

11 hours ago, TALISMAN_XVII said:

the necessity to modify builds to fit the new dynamics / roles you invision for these Warframes.

2

I did read your post, more than once, in full, but I'm going to just reply to a few key points that. While dynamics may be altered, I don't think DE has envisioned any new roles for the 'frames, nor are they trying to enforce them.

I guess I can maybe give you Ember as her role very likely will change for most players. But I also can't give you Ember because it doesn't at all seem like DE's intention is to change roles. As always, they're after press-4-to-win/nuking abilities.

11 hours ago, TALISMAN_XVII said:

If your intention is to (and lets not hide it) change the roles of a few of these Warframes quite dramatically,

1

Don't really see this point, nor does that seem like their intention. They very clearly stated their intentions in three cases (off the top of my head).

They said:

-Banshee is disrupting the mission flow for other squadmates when said squad didn't specifically ask for/request a Banshee to RS the map. Locking the map down, not killing enemies, not letting them spawn isn't good outside of certain missions where she's requested.

-That Chroma's math has been broken since forever and they're finally fixing it while giving him some pretty badass buffs.

-That Ember's pretty much in the same camp as Saryn, Mag (for Corpus), Mesa, Valkyr, and Excalibur were in the past: Ember's 4 is a nuke and has to be contained. All of those previous 'frames had drawbacks added to using their 4's for extended periods of time, changes to their overall kit/just their 4 to make it more squad-friendly while buffing the ability. Well, everyone except Mag. I still don't really understand her rework, but I understand Mesa and Valkyr's even though I don't use them. (Saryn, Mag, and Excalibur I do use, or did in Mag's case.)

11 hours ago, TALISMAN_XVII said:

then I feel adequate compensation (forma) should be given to allow players to adapt their builds.

1

If DE giving us compensation (forma) is dependant on them changing warframe roles (overtly or covertly), and it's clear that wasn't their intention (it seems clear to me and many others), then do they still owe us forma? I'd say no, but I don't think they owe us forma either way.

I remember the forma compensation in the case of the Tonkor, but it isn't necessary and I understand the game content is always subject to change. I'm just used to it, I guess. I have a mix of forma BP drops (try to build every day but fail), and forma bundles I buy (with my trade plat) when I don't feel like waiting.

I don't feel entitled to it. But sure, they could run a script to give out 1 or 2 forma each time they rework something. Free stuff is cool. But will that be enough? Will we ask for 3-5? 6? Will we get it?

Or maybe they could give us a discount or something similar to store-credit. Aside from the physical value of forma, time itself is valuable.

"Coupons" for 12 - 16 hours off of our next X forma builds would be interesting, and not cut into DE's sweet, sweet, forma-bundle gravy train.

Not sure how feasible it is to A) run a script to see how many forma we have on a reworked item (and check if we own it at all), B) send the appropriate number of coupons, C) differentiate between forma we bought and forma we built (the latter seems impossible. Even I can't remember where I used what).

11 hours ago, TALISMAN_XVII said:

It's been a good 4 years and you provide an in-game market heavily reliant on microtransactions, please don't abuse the excuse of being in the eternal "Beta". Thank you.

I don't think they are abusing it, nor do I think it's an excuse. Mainly because even if they took WF out of Beta, I think they'd still keep changing it as needed (and as requested). If the changes wouldn't stop, then they're not necessarily hiding behind the Beta designation in order to avoid compensating us.

There are benefits to staying in Beta, that isn't in dispute (nor is it my point that DE isn't benefiting from staying in Beta); I just don't see being out of Beta stopping the constant changes. 

But I guess you're saying if they were out of Beta, then they'd be on the hook to compensate us for changes. I kind of doubt that theory would hold up, but who knows.

DE's compensated us for focus (I think, I didn't pay attention), key-to-relic conversion, accidental Baro items going up for sale (took them down, put them back up), and Trinty Prime Accessories (Kavasa stuff, right?) being botched to name a few. All of this was done after community backlash if memory serves. Can't recall if they made any of these concessions without prompting.

[Rhekemi]

17 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Since when is white knight a derogatory? I'm just stating DE could be more transparent about their bugs that they treat as working as intended instead of keeping quiet about it for 3 years.. Meaning I spent real money on a frame knew was defective without informing us.. If it was just a nerf then I would have been okay with it, but this is a buff and a bug fix.. That bug being the reason why many of those builds are the way they are formad, and build. 

About that. I wasn't aware that DE knew about the bug for 3 years. Did they? Oftentimes developers don't know something is broken until the players find it. That's true for all developers, not just DE.

So, again, honest question, do you have evidence to support the assertion that DE knew for 3 years that Chroma was broken? I honestly don't know.

I only just found out about his broken math this year (a month or two ago) from a reddit post/YouTube video. He's always been one of my least used 'frames.

[MickThejaguar]

5 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

About that. I wasn't aware that DE knew about the bug for 3 years. Did they? Oftentimes developers don't know something is broken until the players find it. That's true for all developers, not just DE.

So, again, honest question, do you have evidence to support the assertion that DE knew for 3 years that Chroma was broken? I honestly don't know.

I only just found out about his broken math this year (a month or two ago) from a reddit post/YouTube video. He's always been one of my least used 'frames.

I'm almost positive that they didn't realize this until it became popular to use Chroma to one shot Terralysts.

[kuciol]

15 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

About that. I wasn't aware that DE knew about the bug for 3 years. Did they? Oftentimes developers don't know something is broken until the players find it. That's true for all developers, not just DE.

So, again, honest question, do you have evidence to support the assertion that DE knew for 3 years that Chroma was broken? I honestly don't know.

I only just found out about his broken math this year (a month or two ago) from a reddit post/YouTube video. He's always been one of my least used 'frames.

Ive heard they admitted it (maybe on stream, i dont know, didnt watch whole thing) but there was no reason to fix it and well now they have it.

[UncaIroh]

From what I understand in the dev workshop thread, DE already did the chroma nerf back in the day. They did it, we complained, DE couldn't find any compelling reason to keep the nerf, so they reverted it to its OP state. They didn't sit on it, they actually nerfed it already.

This is round 2, when they have an actual reason to nerf.

[Rhekemi]

5 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

I'm almost positive that they didn't realize this until it became popular to use Chroma to one shot Terralysts.

I think that would make the most sense, judging from their tendency to patch and fix other similar issues ASAP. 

They tend to be pretty open about longstanding issues when they do know about them (and trying to find the right way to address it). Something like the Tonkor nerf comes to mind, but that's not truly comparable to the Chroma issue. The Tonkor was designed without self-damage and was the fun, rocket-jump launcher. That said, its need for change was talked about openly for quite some time (back when they were trying to iron out weapon diversity, metas, etc. as well as mandatory mods).

[Rhekemi]

5 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Ive heard they admitted it (maybe on stream, i dont know, didnt watch whole thing) but there was no reason to fix it and well now they have it.

If you could find the stream and the timestamp of that comment, feel free to PM it to me. 

Seems like an absurd admission to make. If something's broken, not working as you intended it, that's fair game for fixing. Pretty sure that's why the Telos Boltace tonfas were nerfed. Weren't they broken and the syndicate proc was active on quick melee when no other syndicate melee's proc was active on quick melee?

Pretty sure people had a conniption over that, too.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Rhekemi

[rune_me]

30 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

Since people on the internet started using it as an insult? 

Only the internet can use names that actually sound like bad a** superheroes, like The White Knight or The Social Justice Warrior, and think they are actually insulting people by calling them that. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by rune_me

[Sibernetika]

4 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

I think that would make the most sense, judging from their tendency to patch and fix other similar issues ASAP. 

They tend to be pretty open about longstanding issues when they do know about them (and trying to find the right way to address it). Something like the Tonkor nerf comes to mind, but that's not truly comparable to the Chroma issue. The Tonkor was designed without self-damage and was the fun, rocket-jump launcher. That said, its need for change was talked about openly for quite some time (back when they were trying to iron out weapon diversity, metas, etc. as well as mandatory mods).

Yeah I was away for 2 years due to work and my pc going kaboom.. I didn't know Tonkor was nerfed till My arse was pasted on the ceiling lol

[kuciol]

4 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

If you could find the stream and the timestamp of that comment, feel free to PM it to me. 

Seems like an absurd admission to make. If something's broken, not working as you intended it, that's fair game for fixing. Pretty sure that's why the Telos Boltace tonfas were nerfed. Weren't they broken and the syndicate proc was active on quick melee when no other syndicate melee's proc was active on quick melee?

Pretty sure people had a conniption over that, too.

Nvm devstream its right in dev workshop post on forums.

Fixed an issue where Chroma would deal no damage with Vex Armor active. While this may sound like a simple fix, if you're a Chroma user please read on!
Solving Vex Armor actually takes as back to Chroma's beginning. On original power creation, we used some less-than-ideal calculation methods to create Scorn and Fury's effects. If you are an avid Chroma user, you probably know the power maximizing this ability brings. At some point in Chroma's future we will need to revisit and use ideal methods for his Abilities; we will inform you well in advance when Chroma is under review.”

 

So they knew it from the very start.