The Temporary Future of Warframe Trials

[Yuliannn94]

3 hours ago, FelixGrief said:

Please, PLEASE do not kill raids.

I understand that a lot of players don't know about/join raids. But Conclave still has a dedicated team for it, despite being almost universally disliked. I beg you to reconsider this decision. The pause may be "temporary" but temporary could mean anywhere from 1 week to 2 years.

 

If you really want to push for more people to raid/improve the raid experiences, why not

• Remove the keys to do raids
• Host a dedicated hub for raids (a la Cetus) or link players to Warframe Raid Schoolbus
• Replace the repetitions of 3x Invasion missions with just ONE instance of the "Destroy Injectors" puzzle from LoR

This make sense to me. In fact, everything else makes more sense that removing trials.
 

[Voltage]

Welp, I guess the only thing we can do is speak with our wallets.

[(XBOX)Squazmire]

Another thing i thought of. If you want to get rid of content because its buggy and noone plays it...why not get rid of PoE? 

[Urabask]

16 minutes ago, InsomnIaC. said:

Please produce statistics to support your claims. Otherwise, I'd refrain from making such generalizing comments about a sizable subset of the playerbase.

"Most people here defending raids are mad... seriously overestimating..."

Those words without numbers to back them up have little meaning other than to serve as leverage for tenuous claims like yours.

"Do people seriously think DE would shut down trials if there was a meaningful number of people playing them?"

The average player count on Steam alone for the past 2 months have been approximately 45,000. Factoring in players off Steam, I'd wager it'd be at about a 80,000 odd playing at any one point in time.

Just from the last 1.5 hours recorded on trials.wf, which pulls all recorded raids directly from content.warframe, the number of raids completed were near a 100. Factoring in average player count of 6, that's already 600 people. If you'd remove repeated raids done by the same group, that'd be a ballpark figure of 400-500 people participating just within 1/16 of an entire 24 hour day cycle. Extrapolating that figure, that's about 6.4k to 8k players in one day's cycle participating in raids alone.

Considering the average playtime of raids and taking the average player's game-time on Warframe to be an hour or 2 hours (which is pretty reasonable by "real-life" standards), it's fairly safe to say that those 6.4k-8k players put in enough game-time to make up for almost 10% of the game-time across a 24h window by ALL players. This is of course taking the conditions/assumptions stated above to be true; which have been adjusted to fit a realistic approximation as best as my limited knowledge allows me.

I'm not sure how 10% of your playerbase isn't considered "meaningful" as compared to say Conclave. For any DE member reading this, I'm sure you've grown tired of hearing Conclave being bashed over and over again, but for the record past statistics and analysis has already indicated that the PVP gamemode suffers even more from a lack of activity compared to every other mission type in-game.

So please do your best to convince me on this claim. If you think I'm just pulling figures out of my tin-foil hat then you're welcome to ask for statistics directly from @[DE]Megan with a full break down of player participation % and game time %. I too would like to see it - until (I stress) a reliable set of statistics can be produced, I'm not budging from my position. This means that I'm not interested in a simple pie-chart telling me X% of missions done today were raids - no, I want solid, raw data with metrics recorded and presented in as unbiased a manner as possible.

Also, for the record, for someone who's done each of the 3 raids nearly over 500 times each, and hasn't sold an arcane in trade chat for a few months, I could care less about the arcane rewards and platinum returns. So that makes at least one against your poorly constructed "most people" claim. I'm sure the number will increase.

You're being just as lazy with your stats.  You're comparing unique player numbers to concurrent player numbers.  With the turnover that takes place during a typical day most games' concurrent players are equal to about 10% of their unique players per day.  So you're really looking at around 800,000 unique players in a day of which 6-8k are playing raids at least once per day.  

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Squazmire said:

Another thing i thought of. If you want to get rid of content because its buggy and noone plays it...why not get rid of PoE? 

Asking the real questions. I love you.

[Aggh]

28 minutes ago, InsomnIaC. said:

Please produce statistics to support your claims. Otherwise, I'd refrain from making such generalizing comments about a sizable subset of the playerbase.

"Most people here defending raids are mad... seriously overestimating..."

Those words without numbers to back them up have little meaning other than to serve as leverage for tenuous claims like yours.

"Do people seriously think DE would shut down trials if there was a meaningful number of people playing them?"

The average player count on Steam alone for the past 2 months have been approximately 45,000. Factoring in players off Steam, I'd wager it'd be at about a 80,000 odd playing at any one point in time.

Just from the last 1.5 hours recorded on trials.wf, which pulls all recorded raids directly from content.warframe, the number of raids completed were near a 100. Factoring in average player count of 6, that's already 600 people. If you'd remove repeated raids done by the same group, that'd be a ballpark figure of 400-500 people participating just within 1/16 of an entire 24 hour day cycle. Extrapolating that figure, that's about 6.4k to 8k players in one day's cycle participating in raids alone.

Considering the average playtime of raids and taking the average player's game-time on Warframe to be an hour or 2 hours (which is pretty reasonable by "real-life" standards), it's fairly safe to say that those 6.4k-8k players put in enough game-time to make up for almost 10% of the game-time across a 24h window by ALL players. This is of course taking the conditions/assumptions stated above to be true; which have been adjusted to fit a realistic approximation as best as my limited knowledge allows me.

I'm not sure how 10% of your playerbase isn't considered "meaningful" as compared to say Conclave. For any DE member reading this, I'm sure you've grown tired of hearing Conclave being bashed over and over again, but for the record past statistics and analysis has already indicated that the PVP gamemode suffers even more from a lack of activity compared to every other mission type in-game.

So please do your best to convince me on this claim. If you think I'm just pulling figures out of my tin-foil hat then you're welcome to ask for statistics directly from @[DE]Megan with a full break down of player participation % and game time %. I too would like to see it - until (I stress) a reliable set of statistics can be produced, I'm not budging from my position. This means that I'm not interested in a simple pie-chart telling me X% of missions done today were raids - no, I want solid, raw data with metrics recorded and presented in as unbiased a manner as possible.

Also, for the record, for someone who's done each of the 3 raids nearly over 500 times each, and hasn't sold an arcane in trade chat for a few months, I could care less about the arcane rewards and platinum returns. So that makes at least one against your poorly constructed "most people" claim. I'm sure the number will increase.

Yawn. You're severely underestimating the daily player base.  Most successful games have closer to ten times as many unique daily players playing  compared to their average CCU.  So change that 10% closer to less than 1% and you'd likely be closer to reality.

So yeah, you fit squarely in the group of people severely overestimating how many people actually play trials.  I mean honestly, do you really think that DE would shut down content that makes up 10%  of their game's total play time?  Really?  Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds?

[_12K]

Ok,soo everbody is """"sad"""" because Raids are being """"put to rest""""" and using dark sectors as an example

Even with they saying that they're working on the new Dark Sectors right now....

 

 

 

 

i'll never understand WF community....

[Voltage]

Just now, _12K said:

Ok,soo everbody is """"sad"""" because Raids are being """"put to rest""""" and using dark sectors as an example

Even with they saying that they're working on the new Dark Sectors right now....

Dark Sectors have been in armistice for about 3 years now...

[LuckyCharm]

Thanks DE, finally I can get the arcanes from another place other than the boring cc fiestas that were raids. I'm not even sure why people are sad about their removal to be honest. They weren't hard and they weren't end game. The main thing stopping people from doing them was that you needed 4 or more people to do them. You were locked out from just soloing or duoing with a buddy. This just forced people like me to have to try find groups publicly and that usually ended badly. 

 

[_12K]

5 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Dark Sectors have been in armistice for about 3 years now...

Yeah,and it is been 3 years of Warframe improving content...

And now they're removing raids with even more content to be improved...

The thing is that they're removing one system to work on another (Raids for Dark Sectors)

Soo,try not be soo salty about it...

Everbody always try to make it looks bad...

Even when it's not actually like that...

By The Void....just chill ok ?

It's not the end of the Raids,just a temporary pause,THAT MAYBE NOT EVEN HAPPENS NOW ! because of this giant amount of players complaining about it...

Soo,make some tea,put some classic music and relax...please,scream in despair won't result in nothing

 

Bye~

[DelialFallen]

As someone who isn’t much of a fan of the Plains, I find it just a bit unpleasant  more rewards or required mats are being tacked on to them.

 

Ah well.

[--C--Notorious]

This is equivalent to Runescape updating to the evolution of combat. For us dedicated raid lovers.

[-SW-lnick95]

This is the only endgame content in the game and you're going to cut it. Bravo DE

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

14 minutes ago, LtLeechKril said:

I was specifically replying to these statements:

"And if they were to leave the raids in-game, while still allowing the arcanes to be gotten from Teralysts, people would still complain that their raids are now 'useless'. And complain that not only are the raids bugged, but now they're not as rewarding for all the effort put into them."
"Why are you playing Warframe? The basis of the game is a grind, not mass teamwork."

Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. Yes, raids are a grind, like everything in the game, but they offer something that nothing else in the grind does: the need to work with your team. You can argue that the Teralyst also does this, but Teralyst provides absolutely no thought provocation or challenge. It's a grind to be a grind, it's not hard to do or hard to learn like the raids. It's simply hard to maximize your efficiency and get the most per night.

They don't require a good clan to get a group together, there is a Discord server called the Warframe Raid School Bus where people will teach members how to play raids, and then they can go and host/join a group for themselves. There are many other Discords as well that will run raids. Recruiting chat is a bit more risky, but there's still a frequent amount of raids there.

It's been months since PoE released. Everyone has given it a shot, and people who haven't will not try it because the raids are being deleted. I'm aware logistics are against us, but that won't stop me from voicing my disagreement.

Correct. The Teralsyt is the easiest of the Eidolons. it is the 'entry level' Eidolon. Easy for Vets to farm, and easy enough for new players (experience wise, not MR wise), to attempt.

However, in the sense of no thought or challenge, have you not considered that these new Eidolons have spawn conditions? Of course, these spawn conditions could be very simple, (which I hope isn't the case). And could require some exploring prior to even figuring it out. Even then the conditions might require certain actions to be performed first. All things that a player would need to be taught. In fact, following certain guides to an extent could guarantee a level of Arcane (if the Gantulyst requires significant pre-planning, it could always drop an uncommon with a high chance of rare).

This is what I kind of want to get at, these Eidolons are more than likely going to become the 'new' raids. Since it has an easy entry level version, it'll serve to get more players interested in doing them.

This is why I think that DE is removing the old raids. They're dated. Essentially getting a rework in the plains.

I don't want you to not voice your disagreement. I'd rather just have you also channel it into constructive criticism about how to make the Eidolons more raid-like.

Something like: In order to spawn the Gantulyst, you've got to first capture the Teralyst to lure it out. The Gantulyst has weak-points more easily attacked from Arch-wing. Certain weakpoints can be broken to restrict the Gantulyst's actions, making it easier to kill and dropping pieces that can be sold for credits, or they can be left alone, granting an Endo boost from harvested energy. Etc. Etc.

 

[SordidDreams]

I just saw Steve's tweet citing "very low user engagement yet high player/dev frustration" as a reason for this move. Here's the thing about that: The numbers don't tell the whole story! Trials are an aspiration for many players, they're something to work toward. I've only done a handful, but they are still extremely important to me. I look forward to playing them, even if infrequently. "I have to get stronger and better so I can do Trials" was a huge part of what kept me playing WF for as long as I have, without that I'd have put the game down thousands of hours ago. Even if relatively few people play them, that doesn't mean their existence is not important.

[MrSpark_]

if i could solo them i would run them every day, i understand they are meant to involve team work. but if it was very tough to solo (but still doable) and made a little easier with a full team i feel like they would be like harder sorties which i am totally down for

[--C--Notorious]

1 minute ago, Pent_ said:

What? No it's not. RS3 is still good, and OSRS still exists. Both version coexist to allow the player the choice to play the one they prefer. Personally I play both because they both have their ups and downs.

This is just gutting content because DE doesn't know how to fix it despite tons of community members giving valuable feedback.

You realise that over 50% of the rs community quit cause of rs3 right lul. And yes you do personally play both, which is my point. Let us have the option to play in poe and do trials lol. 

[InsomnIaC.]

9 minutes ago, Urabask said:

You're being just as lazy with your stats.  You're comparing unique player numbers to concurrent player numbers.  With the turnover that takes place during a typical day most games' concurrent players are equal to about 10% of their unique players per day.  So you're really looking at around 800,000 unique players in a day of which 6-8k are playing raids at least once per day.  

You make a good point, and I concede that.

However, there's also no way for us as players to determine how many of that 800,000 is simply logging in for the daily tribute, how many are just stepping into the game to finish sorties (which can sometimes be a 10 minute affair), or perhaps even simply afking with the client on while in their lisets or camping trade chat. Warframe purportedly has 26 million registered users, but how many of them are truly active?

Whereas the raid population from trials.wf can be guaranteed to actually be playing the game for a fixed duration as long as they have to complete the 3 missions in each raid.

I made a comparison with limited knowledge to the best of my ability; unless there's further input from staff all we can do as players is speculate. That's exactly why I mentioned Megan for statistics straight from the staff instead of just relying on player speculation.

[Yuliannn94]

Another of my points against this terrible decision.

 

Once there was a feature in the game called "Void Keys", it was beautiful and we all enjoyed it, even when the odds were against us. We got better and more useful resources and objects, because The Void was the real endgame of the game, each weapon, each warframe, each build was made in order to improve its usefulness in this beautiful system. It was fun, challenging, we had purposes for the game.
One day they removed that system, they replaced it with an easier system, many of us hated the decision, others received it with great pleasure because the fissures provide greater ease, but it also makes it quite boring to get prime parties, we all know that, it can not be denied.
But then we reconsider: "Well, we still have the trials". Then everything we did in the game was done in order to improve our experience in the trials. Because it was the last thing left, and we enjoyed it. And then they will take away the Trials, because few players play them. Then only the Sorties will remain, then they will remove the Sorties. Then they will have a game full of Emptiness.

[Kiri]

Please reconsider the decision to remove Trials, it's probably the most fun I have playing the game.
Everything else is soloable, but raids require teamwork, it's the most social aspect of the game for me.
If the only reason you're removing it is because new players have difficulty with it, you may as well remove the entire game, none of the game is easy to access without help.
Also I refuse to believe there is less interest in raids than conclave, conclave matchmaking is empty, while there is near constant raids being requested in recruiting chat or WFRSB, so if you want to remove underplayed content that has to go first

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

I'm sorry but if this is happening, this would put a bad taste in a lot people's mouths (including mine) and will probably mark the beginning of the fall of warframe and eventually kill off the game like what's going to be happening to paragon soon.

5 years of warframe and this is how it could come crashing down with lose ends still in the story that will not be tied and of course with the fact we still don't have Excalibur umbra, this is Atrocious that it all has to come down like this, straight up unacceptable...

Look, i still love your game and play it daily, i want to see DE and Warframe strive, but so many current & future veteran players and other potential the game has in the future could be lost if this occurs.

Removing the raids will be easily be one of the worst things that would happen since Specters of the Fail, it is a risk not worth taking.

DE i strongly advise you to reconsider this to be honest Absolutely Abysmal Idea of yours.

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

I would prefer if you guys came up with some new arcane for teralysts and didn't disable the raids. 

I have have no driving motivation to acquire any raid arcane for a very long time now, at least half a year, the only reason I even do the raids anymore is to chat with friends while we do it since it's the most engaging none endless content the game has. 

I don't know about this "mirrors the tactics, team work and communication", it's a stretch to say teralysts needs any of these past selecting 2 roles (all teralysts amounts to is 2 hacks and alternating between shooting with a real weapon and shooting with some kids water sprayer, and wait times)  but fundamentally teralysts can't replace raids so long as it can't have 8 players it won't fulfill the same social interaction. 

Also new teralysts specific arcane would give me a reason to do them. 

[Ceteruler]

Even if it means removing content for awhile, I'm in favor of DE finally taking a good look at LoR and JV. I often feel that Warframe has a social difficulty curve that really damages the experience of things like raids.
Eidolon hunts are a more successful form of raid-like content in that it has a much better social difficulty curve associated with it. They take place in a non-exclusive environment which anyone - alone or with fellow players - can get access to before doing a hunt. In addition, said environment has an entire (again non-exclusive) hub associated with it in the form of Cetus, which allows for quick relay of information and squad formation.
This youtube channel talks about this kind of stuff in three short episodes. It's an interesting aspect of design.

 

[-Bliekord-]

Dab on those raids xddddd who cares about vets! who cares about these stacks of arcane energize i've earned over the years! lets just force vets play POE! how fun!! :D 

[InsomnIaC.]

23 minutes ago, Aggh said:

Yawn. You're severely underestimating the daily player base.  Most successful games have closer to ten times as many unique daily players playing  compared to their average CCU.  So change that 10% closer to less than 1% and you'd likely be closer to reality.

So yeah, you fit squarely in the group of people severely overestimating how many people actually play trials.  I mean honestly, do you really think that DE would shut down content that makes up 10%  of their game's total play time?  Really?  Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds?

Read other response to Urabask above. Granted, analysis is flawed, but point still stands that I'm waiting for actual statistics from developer standpoint and not player speculation.

I'll talk to the guy who posted directly above you (Urabask), he sounds more reasonable and polite.