The only challenge in Warframe is how fast you can cheese through missions. Why newbies leave

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

12 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

There are tons of reasons why players who would actually play the game for more than a week quit, be it meh keybind options, screenshake which cant be turned off by turning off screenshake, FoV under 90, weird and inconsistent usage of RAM when it comes to PoE/cetus loading gates dying while loading resulting in endless stuck while other times it loads just fine in 5-20 seconds, tutorials and mechanics hidden in codex tabs you have no indication to actually check, numerous resource traps, up to recently death of pets, etc. But cheese/ability to overpower enemies that are not sortie or above by a few orders of magnitude (and stuff like e.g. non-existant pvp) art not one of em.

I would strongly argue that new players don't give a damn about those issues.

They are overwhelmed by the coolness of combat, no other game really gives them that. They forgive everything else, the moderate graphics, the flaws, because they want to be space ninjas. The parkour and the fluid combat is the biggest pro at the beginning.

That is why cheesing and overpowering can become disappointing. 

But to be clear: I now agree with y'all, that a complete overhaul of the overall combat would actually be bad. Cheesing is fun, as well; but missions which utilize the full capacity of the combat system (not with restrictions) would make the game more complete, to me. I edited this into the OP. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[Sorenxoras]

So if the game is too easy because it's easy to cheese missions..... don't? I mean, just because you can doesn't mean you have to. I don't have to use limbo/loki/ivara on spy missions, I'll use my valkyr because she's fun. not being able to use invisibility and choosing not to use immortality makes it less boring for me. I'll grind and i'll find easy ways to grind. but if i'm not? i can do whatever and not have to worry about cheesing a mission. I'm here to have fun, not beat the game as fast as possible. 

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

8 minutes ago, Sorenxoras said:

So if the game is too easy because it's easy to cheese missions..... don't? I mean, just because you can doesn't mean you have to. I don't have to use limbo/loki/ivara on spy missions, I'll use my valkyr because she's fun. not being able to use invisibility and choosing not to use immortality makes it less boring for me. I'll grind and i'll find easy ways to grind. but if i'm not? i can do whatever and not have to worry about cheesing a mission. I'm here to have fun, not beat the game as fast as possible. 

I did this. I soloed a lot, and I chose my warframe and equipment tuned to the enemy lvl, so that it would be a fair challenge.

But the combat is more tedious that way than challenging. You start to shoot, alarms are off, and suddenly a thousand enemies surround you and you really have to fight for your life, utilize everything, so that... so that you get 5000 credits in the end? Why would I do that? 

Everything is so tightly tied to the grind in Warframe, that it felt pointless and stupid to shoot myself through a mission in 10 minutes, where I can run through in 1. It's challenging - but not engaging. And that kills the fun.

[blazinvire]

Bleh, cheese tends to be the most efficient way to do things if not bypass an outdated damage system; mainly, looters and grind tend to encourage efficiency, which means one of the problems could simply be that the most efficient strategy simply isn't fun.

I'd like to believe there's a win/win situation here, I've been trying my best to math this crap and I think I'm narrowing down on a solution, but it's not gonna be a quick'n'easy fix, like all the bandaids currently holding the system together.

First, you need a damage system that you can reliably calculate and manipulate the Time-To-Kill ratio on a much nicer curve, so you can adjust difficulty of any given fight by futzing with the TTK.  Which is probably going to require a damage/healing overhaul, stat squish, crowd control and invincibility tweaks.
Once you have a TTK variable, you can pair that up with a Dynamic Reward system that can scale rewards according to difficulty.
Then, you can adjust things to give increasing bonuses the higher difficulty on a scaling curve.
Say it takes 10 seconds to kill 100 enemies, and the rewards could be 1 credit per kill; compared to 10 seconds to kill 1 enemy, and the rewards could be 100 credits per kill.
However, with difficulty bonus scaling, you could favour the higher difficulty by adjusting it such: 9 seconds to kill 1 enemy that yields 100 credits per kill.
Or 10 seconds to kill 1 enemy and gain 110 credits, etcetera.

It's a starting point at least, the devils in the details.

[Volinus7]

That's the point of Warframe, its main goal is to plant a lot of sunk costs and indoctrinate people to become loot addicts before they notice what are fundamentally wrong within the game. 

There are even some people who want Warframe to be an idle clicking game, you are supposed to play it with a grain of salt, the deeper you invest the greater the backlash. 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Volinus7

[MagPrime]

13 hours ago, komoriblues said:

Getting really sick of this stuff, this isn't a murder trial or something. .people are far too obsessed with this "post facts or it doesn't exist" on forums lately. .it's not hard to understand a person's opinion on all this instead of just waiving their opinion with the easily found holes in their "argument". .personally I don't need an entire novella of facts and statistics to understand an opinion like OP's here and if I had issue with something it's not hard to search for it myself. Yeah, maybe they make a stretch here and there. .so what. .if it was something vitally important to their point SURE, get some around it. Otherwise, quit using something implicit in somebody's opinion or finding some off shoot of tangent  irrelevant lack of facts and riding it out just to prove them "wrong". @(*()$ nerds and their +4 stamina belts, "Trogdor landed on volcoc in millennia 256, not 253". So burned out with kids applying critical thinking 101 from their college course of the most basic stuff. OP is talking about how easy the game is ultimately, quit slowing things down over some minute oversight and see the bigger picture for hell's sake, getting tired of reading all this S#&$.

The problem many people have is that the OP is using numbers to back up their opinion, and the numbers aren't accurate, and they're making hard claims about facts when there is no possible way they could have said facts, unless they were an employee of Digital Extremes.  It'd be a lot like someone on the street corner telling you what's wrong with your countries economy and then start talking about the currency in another country.  It's hard to say "this is the problem" when you have the wrong information.  No one will trust you and you're basically wasting everyones time.

A lot of people who ask for facts genuinely want the information because they want the topic to succeed.  If you present your argument from a place of facts, you have to provide said facts to be taken seriously. 

[ikkabotz]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

The problem many people have is that the OP is using numbers to back up their opinion, and the numbers aren't accurate, and they're making hard claims about facts when there is no possible way they could have said facts, unless they were an employee of Digital Extremes.  It'd be a lot like someone on the street corner telling you what's wrong with your countries economy and then start talking about the currency in another country.  It's hard to say "this is the problem" when you have the wrong information.  No one will trust you and you're basically wasting everyones time.

A lot of people who ask for facts genuinely want the information because they want the topic to succeed.  If you present your argument from a place of facts, you have to provide said facts to be taken seriously. 

His point stands irrelevant of numbers, this game is a cheese fest. Point taken, don't drag me into this too

Edited February 18, 2018 by komoriblues

[MagPrime]

Just now, komoriblues said:

His point stands irrelevant of numbers, this game is a cheese fest

I'm not saying that they're wrong.  Just the way they went about it damages their point.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 7:32 AM, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Edit:  I now agree with y'all, that a complete overhaul of the overall combat would be bad. Cheesing is fun, as well; but missions which utilize the full capacity of the combat system (not with restrictions) would make the game more complete and satisfying. 

While I don't have the same issues you have presented in you opening post, I can see how that could/can be the case.  This is mostly because I really enjoy the solo aspects more than group ones due to being able to take my time.  That said, I wouldn't object to having missions which utilized the full capacity of the combat system.  

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

45 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

The problem many people have is that the OP is using numbers to back up their opinion, and the numbers aren't accurate, and they're making hard claims about facts when there is no possible way they could have said facts, unless they were an employee of Digital Extremes.  It'd be a lot like someone on the street corner telling you what's wrong with your countries economy and then start talking about the currency in another country.  It's hard to say "this is the problem" when you have the wrong information.  No one will trust you and you're basically wasting everyones time.

A lot of people who ask for facts genuinely want the information because they want the topic to succeed.  If you present your argument from a place of facts, you have to provide said facts to be taken seriously. 

MagPrime, the problem is that I actually edited my mistake, way before he posted the insult. 

No further comment on this thread of thought. I'm not someone who wants to have the last word. 

[MagPrime]

Just now, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

MagPrime, the problem is that I actually edited my mistake, way before he posted the insult. 

No further comment on this thread of thought. I'm not someone who wants to have the last word. 

And I actually had left the topic entirely until you responded.  

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

9 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

And I actually had left the topic entirely until you responded.  

? I don't understand

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

Just now, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

? I don't understand

simple, u called him, he appeared

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

? I don't understand

The conversation you were trying to kill, was already dead.  

[PatternistSlave]

On 2/17/2018 at 8:32 AM, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Destiny is not that cheesable

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  That out of the way.  Warframe isn't Destiny.  It's more of a horde looter than a shooter.  I personally like it that way.  That style of gameplay isn't for everyone, but certainly has an audience.  Dynasty Warriors is on like its 9th installment for example.  Diablo is pretty popular.

[(PSN)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng]

The thing is though, I Like easy

 

I wanna Relax when playing Warframe, Not tear my hair out over BS RNG and overall  BS mechanics.

 

I don't get why you guys are so masochistic, It's like you constantly wanna get F*cked in the A*s by this game. "MORE!!" "BIGGER!!" "HARDER!!" Learn to relax every now and then!

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

11 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  That out of the way.  Warframe isn't Destiny.  It's more of a horde looter than a shooter.  I personally like it that way.  That style of gameplay isn't for everyone, but certainly has an audience.  Dynasty Warriors is on like its 9th installment for example.  Diablo is pretty popular.

Thank Hunhow Warframe isn't Destiny. That was never the point that it should be like that. Destiny is painfully slow, that makes it not cheesable. 

Warframe has way too good combat system to be just a horde looter, that is the point of this thread. A challenging mission type as an addition would satisfy both of us. 

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng said:

The thing is though, I Like easy

 

I wanna Relax when playing Warframe, Not tear my hair out over BS RNG and overall  BS mechanics.

 

I don't get why you guys are so masochistic, It's like you constantly wanna get F*cked in the A*s by this game. "MORE!!" "BIGGER!!" "HARDER!!" Learn to relax every now and then!

I don't get vets wanting "more end-game content", more, bigger, harder. They always get something like that, sorties... kuva and rivens... focus... Eidolons..., and then one month later the videos and posts emerge again: "Warframe doesn't have end-game content". What do they want?

What I would like is that the overall general game would contain more challenging, engaging parts, as well, in addition to the relaxing grind. Not gimmicky challenge like the Eidolon fights or boss-fights. Anyway, what I could say about this I said already, we'll see where DE will go.

[PatternistSlave]

Just now, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Thank Hunhow Warframe isn't Destiny. That was never the point that it should be like that. Destiny is painfully slow, that makes it not cheesable. 

Warframe has way too good combat system to be just a horde looter, that is the point of this thread. A challenging mission type as an addition would satisfy both of us. 

Well it sounds like Dark Sectors might be a more challenge based type of thing.  Until then I personally enjoy ranking weapons up using the actual weapon.  Sorties can be reasonably challenging and are along the lines of what you're asking for.  As are Nightmare missions.  Biggest issue is I don't think the majority who play Warframe are really even interested in harder content.  Like that one guy said.  He plays Warframe to relax.  Personally if I want challenge I play a PvP game.

[Volinus7]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Warframe has way too good combat system to be just a horde looter, that is the point of this thread. A challenging mission type as an addition would satisfy both of us. 

Yeah the typical recurring "Warframe is too good to be a mob wiper game" which has been popping up every once in a while for 3 years on this forum, followed by "there will be a backlash if WF raises skill caps or approaches full balance because some people invested deeply in this game or they want a pointless incremental clicking game to relax". 

Your concerns might catch their attention after the next 3 years. 

[(PSN)leduanjohan]

On 2/17/2018 at 8:32 AM, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Solutions? I don't know. For example closing an area down until the enemies are cleared, would make the game feel more engaging. Veterans will laugh about this, but in my first one-two hundred hours I always wanted this, and not just run though the whole map to get the reward. Gameplay has to be the most rewarding. - This would require way better rewards at the end of it of course, calculated by the added time.

We already have this in kuva missions, where we stay in a room and fight enemies until we capture all the kuva.

But I agree. The game doesn't offer enough challenge. Take kuva missions for example. The only one that offers a challenge is the flood variant, and it appears like once every hour.

To your point about the game being tedious in solo mode, maybe your not as prepared as you could be to handle all missions solo. In fact, i'd go as far as saying the game is well balanced for solo play, unless ofc you play with invisible or invulnarable warframes.

Now, when it comes to squads it's too easy to trivialize content. The game is not balanced for 4 players with godlike abilities. So, as you say, the endgame becomes more about speedrunning, which is fine too for me but i feel DE could do more.

I proposed this game mode a few days ago, it got no attention lol, but i think it can fulfil our needs for more challenge without having to rework warframes or enemies or scaling. Check it out.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/918653-hardcore-survival-how-bad-does-this-idea-sound/?tab=comments#comment-9488453

[(PSN)Crixus044]

What most people call cheese, us endurance runners call normal builds. You have to remember. No matter what, there will always be a best build. An optimized loadout. Because of this, when we take these optimized builds into levels far below it's level, it feels easy, like swinging through cheese. The answer is to give us enemies and mission levels that can actually challenge these playstyles that most people call cheesy. I'll put it to you this way. Equinox's maim has a guaranteed slash proc to any enemy in it's aura. In lower levels, this is by far the chessiest way to run through exterminate missions, far cheesier than ember, but in higher level missions, this tactic is a practical joke. Same goes for other things. A maiming strike atterax may by cheesing the hell out of your mission, but trust me, in the long runs, we laugh at maiming strike atterax. The answer is the mission level, not the gear and not the players.
I remember when rhino was considered cheesy, but when you asked what mission level players were fighting, consensus was around 20-30. Once DE raised the levels and introduced raids and sorties, Rhino fell so behind that he needed a buff. I'm telling you from experience and math. Mission level rework will fix everything.

[Lenyatta]

-Combat is awesome,  but no challenge in sight to have it in a satisfying way
-Game is so cheesy that people actually nerf themselves to find it fair
OP had the good grace of sharing a nice feedback and a valid point
3 pages of persons gargling on his "claim" about the numbers of fresh players wether being true or not, thus invalidating his entire opinion on the game

what kind of specimens raised you in a way to miss the point so bad?
 

[(PSN)HAVOCS-Regret]

On 2/18/2018 at 3:39 AM, WhiteMarker said:

No. You made something up. You lied. It remains a lie until you post a source.
As long as you don't post a source, your whole post is wrong and should be closed by mods.

Clearly the vast majority of players are new players, my source: 6500 hours of gameplay, being the Warlord of a clan, and observation.  If you pay attention you can also deduce that this is also the factor that drives many of the decisions that DE makes, case in point, the removal of raids.

[(PSN)leduanjohan]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Mission level rework will fix everything.

That's been requested a lot. After so many years I'm led to believe the reason it hasn't been implemented yet is because they would feel compelled to add better rewards along with the addition of more challenging missions, and that's a no no for them. Part of their business is to not let players progress too quickly to incentivize market purchases, boosters, potatoes, forma, etc. If they increase the level certain warframe combinations will still trivialize the content. Basically you'd be able to progress faster (if the missions rightly so yielded better rewards) with little effort (4 player squads).

How you go about this problem? Even if DE added higher level missions without the better rewards, players would still demand better rewards. No rewards then players wouldn't bother investing time in those missions, so the missions would not be played. 

Only increasing mission level won't do anything unfortunately. DE needs to make harder content period that cannot be cheesed, so that they can feel that then it would be possible to add better rewards, and the missions would be played regularly. A balance in reward and effort.

I made this game mode suggestion specifically thinking about 4 player squads that I think would be fun and would justify better rewards due to the increasing difficulty: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/918653-hardcore-survival-how-bad-does-this-idea-sound/?tab=comments#comment-9479384

I don't think something like the above could be cheesed but I might be proven wrong. Anyways, it's a hard mode survival where abilities are disabled as you progress in the mission, enemies reach decent levels faster, and defeating mini bosses is required to advanced.