why not universal vacuum

[Hypernaut1]

12 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

To remind everyone of DE's stated position on this:

• There is a 3m vacuum effect on Warframes as of POE
• There is the possibility that a Warframe vacuum mod will be implemented to extend the Warframe vacuum radius
• The Warframe vacuum radius will not be as large as the sentinel mod regardless of speculative new mods

DE has a simple philosophy, you can agree with it or not but it exists and any argument that doesn't work in these terms isn't going to make much of a dent.

• Collecting loot is a task, just like shooting things, that DE want in the game, this is non-negotiable.
• For the cost of manoeuvre actions the player is rewarded with collected loot
• For players that do not want to pay that price they can pay a different price, via a specific companion selection and a companion mod slot
• Or, possibly, for reduced effect, a Warframe slot

You can argue all you like about it not being good for the game of the detail of what you-as-a-player want but the above is DE's stance.

 

I think most gamers can't wrap their mind around why developers like their players to make tough choices. They can only see it from their own "more=good" perspective. They want their choices to be easy. That leads to a less engaging and even more mindless game.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Sure I can put up a poll if you want me too.

Also while I'm at it, can you provide the proof you owe me about the financial claims?

Not a poll of players who do not have actual play data.  I'm saying give me solid proof.  Should me holding you to your Burden of Proof be reliant on my own proof?  I don't see how you should only be honest when someone else is.  (Mind you, I'm not lying about a thing, I just haven't given into your demand yet, nor will I.)

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

You mentioned vacuum as giving frames infinite power, not taking into account the players who apparantly farm faster without it and those who run Zenurik. By your logic, those would be issues too. Care to make a thread advocating the nerf of energy drops and Zenurik?

On another thread for that topic, sure, I just might....but that isn't the issue being discussed right now.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think most gamers can't wrap their mind around why developers like their players to make tough choices. They can only see it from their own "more=good" perspective. They want their choices to be easy. That leads to a less engaging and even more mindless game.

Bingo!  Thus my statements in this thread about it hurting bottom line and overall game experience.  Less effort required = easier game = less reason to pay to advance (even though it isn't required) 

But can't teach those who don't want to learn.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Not a poll of players who do not have actual play data.  I'm saying give me solid proof.

So asking a community a completely reasonable question; "Do you use Vacuum, yes or no?" Would not be adequate enough even though apparently you've started a poll of your own.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Should me holding you to your Burden of Proof be reliant on my own proof?

No. You have your own and I have mine. 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I don't see how you should only be honest when someone else is.

I haven't hid anything. i freely admit I do not hold DE's internal numbers on things. You however are. Please tell why you are not showing your poll when I am? If it's a fair open poll, why are you reluctant to show it. That is the hallmark of a scam.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

On another thread for that topic, sure, I just might

I look forward to that. Also it is related to the context of the situation, so it can be discussed.

[Zeclem]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

And thats a bad thing?

thats not the point. the point is it IS a stat upgrade that does help with combat, just like adarzas buff.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

So? That's the overall tone people have been spouting thus far.

no, thats just you being assumptions. each person is their own individual, people that cricitise you are not a hivemind.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Be mature. It will hurt other peoples gameplay experience just like old Ash did. Vacuum however does not interfere with others gameplay experience like that. Please stop using these false equivalency fallacies.

im far more mature than you are since you seem to be obsessed with the idea of your reasoning being perfectly flawless. its quite the opposite. and that fallacy lies within your argument only. thats what ive been trying to tell you.

[SilentMobius]

22 minutes ago, Isca said:

Got it! ;) Yeah, one of the things I love about Warframe is the fluid movement system. I spend most missions parkouring like crazy, aimgliding, climbing stuff just for the sake of it... hehe. Which is why I get a little sad when 'lazy' gets pulled out in reference to wanting vacuum on pets. I'm not lazy, I love to play this game very actively and will always keep on the move even whilst others are cheesing a mobile defence. What I hate about no-vacuum play is being forced out of my groove to root myself to the floor and go and stand on that energy orb instead of sucking it up and continuing to rain death on my foes. It breaks my flow.

I've been using a Kavat for most of the last few months and I find that I can easily bullet jump around and collect loot, in fact I jumped around more when things weren't flowing towards me with zero thought needed.

Not a pro or a con, I'm just saying that, for me, using a Kavat resulted in more parkour and general use of the mobility system.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SilentMobius

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

So asking a community a completely reasonable question; "Do you use Vacuum, yes or no?" Would not be adequate enough even though apparently you've started a poll of your own.

No. You have your own and I have mine. 

I haven't hid anything. i freely admit I do not hold DE's internal numbers on things. You however are. Please tell why you are not showing your poll when I am? If it's a fair open poll, why are you reluctant to show it. That is the hallmark of a scam.

Asking an audience that is largely anonymous is not solid proof, no. 

You are demanding I provide proof...I am only holding you to your own standards.

I am not saying, nor have I stated, that I hold DE's internal numbers. I am stating that, as a business owner and someone who is well versed in such matters, logic dictates that with DE's given business model, less farming = less incentive to make purchases OF said materials or their eventual resulting items, such as warframes/weapons.  

Think about it...if there is a water fountain literally every 10 feet in a theme park...are you as likely to BUY water when you see a food cart? Of course not.  It is readily available with little effort.  But if that water fountain is a 10 minute walk away on the other side of the 100 degree park....you might just fork out the $3 for a cold bottle of water.

That is literally in sales and marketing technique 101 books everywhere, so go ahead and argue it if you want but....decades of research would prove otherwise.

Now, if you want me to refer you to some good resources on marketing education, I'd be happy to help you learn more.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

I've been using a Kavat for most of the last few months and I find that I can easily bullet jump around and collect loot, in fact I jumped around more when things weren't flowing towards me with zero thought needed.

Not a pro or a con, I'm just saying that, for me, using a Kavat resulted in more parkour and general mobility.

An interesting and enlightening insight, indeed! Thank you for that!  

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

Sun is actually coming up and I've got to start on my emails to clients in less than 2 hrs....so, gonna get some quick sleep.  It's been a fun discussion with most :)  Talk to you all tomorrow (later today) ! :)

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Nearly 5 years & why this isn't in game is beyond me.

My god it'd open people up to using more than just sentinels.

While I love how folks gasp & awe when they see I use companions...

I feel its time it became passive period.

It will not hurt the game.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

16 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

thats not the point. the point is it IS a stat upgrade that does help with combat, just like adarzas buff.

It does not work the same way as the adarza buff. It helps with combat, but not in a way that can be put on a level with those other stats.

16 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

no, thats just you being assumptions. each person is their own individual, people that cricitise you are not a hivemind.

Everyone against univac either thinks it's lazy or/and not needed. Just look back.

16 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

im far more mature than you are

Clearly not using false equivalency fallacies, thinking that the request for vacuum is on par for asking for an OP weapon that directly affects someone else's gameplay.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Asking an audience that is largely anonymous is not solid proof, no. 

So why did you start a poll?

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You are demanding I provide proof...I am only holding you to your own standards.

Translation; I don't have any.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I am stating that, as a business owner and someone who is well versed in such matters

I am taking this with a mountain of salt given all of the immature posts and child-like fallacies you've made.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

logic dictates that

So assumptions then. Fantastic.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Think about it...if there is a water fountain literally every 10 feet in a theme park...are you as likely to BUY water when you see a food cart?

May I remind you that this is vacuum you are talking about. Something in a video game that picks up items ten metres away you as opposed to three. Your "business model" of water is completely irrelevant and doesn't have any backing. Also, again there are people who say they can pick up resources faster without it. Get DE's numbers and I'll believe you.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Sun is actually coming up and I've got to start on my emails to clients in less than 2 hrs....so, gonna get some quick sleep.  It's been a fun discussion with most :)  Talk to you all tomorrow (later today) ! :)

Of course Mr Alan Sugar. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[Rage_Inducer]

hace 2 horas, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu dijo:

DE does not want success handed to anyone.  Work for it.  So ya gotta "jump around" a bit more to collect the resources.....most of the game is in hallways...how far do you REALLY need to go to do this?  A basic vacuum on a sentinel, anyone will do, suffices for this purpose.
 

The economy thing was from someone else that lierally just said it would ruin economy... somehow.

They give us Taxon on the first junction and that kinda throws the idea of them not wanting us to get successfull early out the window.

My biggest gripe is that howl of the kubrow is also an early quest and not only is it more expensive especially credit wise, it also provides you with less features.

Univac woud offset that cost as picking up stuff would be less of a chore.

Most of the game is not in hallways, only corpus ships, Uranus and some other old tilesets are hallway heavy. Any defense mission, any excavation are all in open areas. The unhealthy obsession of DE to put everything in the plains paired up with the upcoming release of yet another open world makes it pretty clear that warframe is done with hallways.

[Zeclem]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

It does not work the same way as the adarza buff. It helps with combat, but not in a way that can be put on a level with those other stats.

theyre both stat upgrades that help combat. end of the story.

Quote

Everyone against univac either thinks it's lazy or/and not needed. Just look back.

im not, yet you still talk as if i am against univac. 

Quote

Clearly not using false equivalency fallacies, thinking that the request for vacuum is on par for asking for an OP weapon that directly affects someone else's gameplay.

theyre very much equivalent, one being stronger than other does not change that. and the fact that you appearently dont know what a sarcasm is further proves my point of you being way too unreasonable to discuss this any further.

have a nice evening.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Zeclem

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

theyre both stat upgrades that help combat. end of the story

Not on the same level though. You simply cannot compare a Smeeta's Charm to Vacuum. One forces your weapons to crit, one picks up stuff. Not the same level.

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

im not, yet you still talk as if i am against univac.

Did I say you were against univac?

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

theyre very much equivalent

No they are not. Weapons directly affect someone else's game. Vacuum does not. Don't act like they are the same.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

Vacuum's a convenience at the end of the day. A crutch, if you ask me. And well, you know what they say, the more crutches you have...

[Buzkyl]

45 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

To remind everyone of DE's stated position on this:

• There is a 3m vacuum effect on Warframes as of POE
• There is the possibility that a Warframe vacuum mod will be implemented to extend the Warframe vacuum radius
• The Warframe vacuum radius will not be as large as the sentinel mod regardless of speculative new mods

DE has a simple philosophy, you can agree with it or not but it exists and any argument that doesn't work in these terms isn't going to make much of a dent.

• Collecting loot is a task, just like shooting things, that DE want in the game, this is non-negotiable.
• For the cost of manoeuvre actions the player is rewarded with collected loot
• For players that do not want to pay that price they can pay a different price, via a specific companion selection and a companion mod slot
• Or, possibly, for reduced effect, a Warframe slot

You can argue all you like about it not being good for the game or the detail of what you-as-a-player want but the above is DE's stance.

 

The second part can also be expanded on

Warframe was not solely around combat, but looting as well. It follows a simple cycle.

Kill enemies----> collect loot---->kill more enemies----->collect loot

Looting provides a small pause between fights and increases gameplay length and infact alot of WF gameplay is centered around extended it's playtime, from timers to RNG it's evident DE wants people playing. Innately shortening the looting process would have to mean DE would find other ways to extend gameplay length.

However DE understands that loot is very crucial to the game an gave vacuum as a Quality of life mod. And that's what it is, QoL. It makes looting easier at the cost of the mod space. The vacuum feature also encourages players to diversify and invst in companions for  the QoL they provide.

I don't think WF should get vacuum but all companions should have their own form of gathering loot for their owner.

[TalesNexus]

On 2/19/2018 at 12:33 AM, (PS4)tissot555 said:

I saw a thread claiming that DE decided to start selling accessory pack separately due to the overwhelming feedback they received on the subject. So I'm asking myself, why not universal vacuum? I guarantee that would rank as the number one change players would like to see in the game. Maybe that dude that made a video causing DE to listen about  accessories needs to make a video about UNIVERSAL VACUUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Don't worry, until this happened as mentioned above. After that, I never bothered talk about it anymore. 

[jjpdn]

On 2/18/2018 at 5:11 PM, HerpDerpy said:

Pros:

1. Saves buttloads of time

2. much less micromanagement

3. gives people a lot more freedom in terms of what companions they want to use

4. makes resource farming much easier and you dont have to worry about missing anything

5. you don't have to worry about looking around for amo/ energy if you run out because it will just get sucked up into you

Cons:

1.???

 

Id love to see a valid argument from your side of not having it that has some relevance to player experience other than "just don't be lazy" which is no argument at all.

 

Actually, I would rather they not do that before some kind of vacuum rework.

Channeled abilities waste energy orbs like crazy with the old range and my own mobility. I know its not a big con, but its was annoying enough for me to NOT use carrier. 

Lack of wall collision against vacuum. This means that players don't really need to finish certain challenges before getting loot, they can just use explosive weapons against the wall. This means that they have to make bigger future loot rooms the player and more textures for literally no reason, or make annoying pickup ideas like "press x" where your Warframe becomes stuck in a pickup animation. 

AFK farming. They always have to watch for this, especially after the Mag fiesta. People complained about that thing forever even if it was a perfectly justified change. I think they may be scared to implement something like that again. If pets had vacuum and ran around grabbing loot, it may just break the game again. 

On the other hand, a rework may already be coming. Who knows what they are doing behind close doors? May pet vacuum will become centered on the player, and selective? Maybe I could choose not to vacuum energy orbs? Or maybe they'll make the game easier by only vacuuming energy orbs when you're missing 25 energy? Who knows. 

 

[ljmadruga]

2 minutes ago, jjpdn said:

Actually, I would rather they not do that before some kind of vacuum rework.

Channeled abilities waste energy orbs like crazy with the old range and my own mobility. I know its not a big con, but its was annoying enough for me to NOT use carrier. 

Lack of wall collision against vacuum. This means that players don't really need to finish certain challenges before getting loot, they can just use explosive weapons against the wall. This means that they have to make bigger future loot rooms the player and more textures for literally no reason, or make annoying pickup ideas like "press x" where your Warframe becomes stuck in a pickup animation. 

AFK farming. They always have to watch for this, especially after the Mag fiesta. People complained about that thing forever even if it was a perfectly justified change. I think they may be scared to implement something like that again. If pets had vacuum and ran around grabbing loot, it may just break the game again. 

On the other hand, a rework may already be coming. Who knows what they are doing behind close doors? May pet vacuum will become centered on the player, and selective? Maybe I could choose not to vacuum energy orbs? Or maybe they'll make the game easier by only vacuuming energy orbs when you're missing 25 energy? Who knows. 

 

Here’s the thing though; There’s a new pet Moa coming. If it doesn’t have Vacuum or something just as effective, it’s simply going to sit in stasis for eternity for quite a lot of players, which equates to dev time wasted.

[jjpdn]

1 minute ago, ljmadruga said:

Here’s the thing though; There’s a new pet Moa coming. If it doesn’t have Vacuum or something just as effective, it’s simply going to sit in stasis for eternity for quite a lot of players, which equates to dev time wasted.

People say pets are crap, but I still see them in half my teams every match. They may be worthless in Sorties where they get instantly killed, but they are still viable on the starmap. 

[Zeclem]

9 minutes ago, jjpdn said:

People say pets are crap, but I still see them in half my teams every match. They may be worthless in Sorties where they get instantly killed, but they are still viable on the starmap. 

eh, my kavats stay alive quite a while in sorties compared to my sentinels. and on top of that theyre reviveable. 

[Hypernaut1]

44 minutes ago, ljmadruga said:

Here’s the thing though; There’s a new pet Moa coming. If it doesn’t have Vacuum or something just as effective, it’s simply going to sit in stasis for eternity for quite a lot of players, which equates to dev time wasted.

No, it's not wasted. Just because a choice isn't popular or number 1, doesn't mean it's not valuable. It's a choice. 

In fact, I like that pets aren't popular. It allowed me to truly discover their advantages as a new player. To me that was a valuable experience. 

[jjpdn]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

eh, my kavats stay alive quite a while in sorties compared to my sentinels. and on top of that theyre reviveable. 

Huh, maybe Kavats are different. My Kubrows die instantly no matter how much health they have and I just give up reviving.