Daily Log-in Highly Unfair

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I like the current system. Speaking as someone who hasnt got everything and has a long while before getting all the stuff. 

I dont want rewards to be based solely on time played as its very hard to balance the difference between the hours played between different peoples livestyles. Honestly as a busy hard working father, having more time to play games is its own reward..lol

Having things like weapons as goals to unlock actually makes it feel worthwhile. 

If anything the two year wait for some log in rewards is good because in my opinion it rewards the people who didnt abandon the game for something else, rather than those who habitually play the hell out of something for months and then dont come back.

If it was simply for time played the content from the current system would take some people six months to get everything, but others four years just from their available time to play - how is this any fairer than the current system of it taking everyone the exact same amount of log-ins? You argue some people cannot log in every day, but likewise others cannot play for long periods of time..

 

[SilentMobius]

Lets be clear here...

Objectively the current system is fair, you do the same thing as others and you get the same reward, no variation at all.

Relics aren't fair, mod drop rates aren't fair, everyone can do the same thing there and get different results, hence not fair, but the login system is fair.

Within the game context, that is, outside circumstances can always make things unfair in a way that is not part of the game nor the game's fault (E.G: you have no hands and can't play the game, not fair, but not the game's fault, same with "I couldn't play the game at time X")

Also, if someone is asking for a given reward without doing the things that other players did to get that reward, then it's not unfair to refer to that as "asking for a handout" it's not a polite way of describing it, but it's accurate.

However.

"Fair" is not the arbiter of a good game. "Fair" can be a real buzzkill when it comes to fun. "Fair" is not the end of a discussion when it comes to game design.

MR is the primary progress metric in the game, it's the progression equivalent of "level" in other games. And while "level" can often be earned from a number of different sources, in Warframe it's only available in single-use packages from each new weapon/warframe/companion. Each one of those is a discreet package of progression.

Would it be fine in other (progress focused) games to give a good weapon as a long-term login reward? Sure, as long as it's not the best weapon ever, it's just a neat thing for the "lifers" to enjoy, practically a cosmetic.

...but in warframe that is hard-locking a package of "level progress" behind a ~2 year wait, and that is terrible design (which is why DE are changing it)

So even though, personally, I'm right up there and closing on my 750 day reward (I couldn't help but miss some days) I acknowledge that the system is broken and needs to change.

If nothing from the login system gave MR, that would be different, but it does.

Edited February 28, 2018 by SilentMobius

[GlaikitMayflies]

Just now, SilentMobius said:

-snip-

Thank you for this response. 

[MagPrime]

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Lets be clear here...

Objectively the current system is fair, you do the same thing as others and you get the same reward, no variation at all.

Relics aren't fair, mod drop rates aren't fair, everyone can do the same thing there and get different results, hence not fair, but the login system is fair.

Within the game context, that is, outside circumstances can always make things unfair in a way that is not part of the game nor the game's fault (E.G: you have no hands and can't play the game, not fair, but not the game's fault, same with "I couldn't play the game at time X")

Also, if someone is asking for a given reward without doing the things that other players did to get that reward, then it's not unfair to refer to that as "asking for a handout" it's not a polite way of describing it, but it's accurate.

However.

"Fair" is not the arbiter of a good game. "Fair" can be a real buzzkill when it comes to fun. "Fair" is not the end of a discussion when it comes to game design.

MR is the primary progress metric in the game, it's the progression equivalent of "level" in other games. And while "level" can often be earned from a number of different sources, in Warframe it's only available in single-use packages from each new weapon/warframe/companion. Each one of those is a discreet package of progression.

Would it be fine in other (progress focused) games to give a good weapon as a long-term login reward? Sure, as long as it's not the best weapon ever, it's just a neat thing for the "lifers" to enjoy, practically a cosmetic.

...but in warframe that is hard-locking a package of "level progress" behind a ~2 year wait, and that is terrible design (which is why DE are changing it)

So even though, personally, I'm right up there and closing on my 750 day reward (I couldn't help but miss some days) I acknowledge that the system is broken and needs to change.

If nothing from the login system gave MR, that would be different, but it does.

Well said, Thank you.

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

The mastery rank from those weapons altogether wont fill your bar enough to rank up, so its not quite as strong a point as you think. Eventually maybe there might perhaps be enough added to the pool, but realistically there is no difference between being MR 25 and MR 26 other than an extra two mod points at first on new weapons, slightly higher trading caps/syndicate xp caps and the prestige itself.

Its more of a pain in the bum for those of us who feel the need to own every item, which I totally get.

Im not against a better system. I just havent seen one proposed which I like, and the removal of weapons from log in bonuses would take away the only rewards I actually look forward to.

 

[Beartornado]

On 2/20/2018 at 4:58 AM, kuciol said:

Locking PLAYABLE CONTENT behind time walls, 1 times events, platforms etc is never a good thing and something i despise the most in gaming. This mentality of "ive found game before you therefor im better" is the most f up thing about gaming communities in every game. Denying the content to others just because you want to feel special is just childish.  You did nothing special for it , just happened to find the game faster than the others.

Does that apply to founders too who found it before anyone and committed to it when it's success was uncertain? Because I think you've got your logic backwards here, its the players who found the game late who have done nothing special for it.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not interested in superiority, I want players who find this game tomorrow to play it and love it as much as I do. But the fact that I've been here longer does mean I've been supporting this game longer, even something as simple as logging in gives better statistics, improves the chances I'll actually play daily, and might even lead to me purchasing something new with plat or at least engaging in trading for plat which encourages others to purchase plat. The fact that I've been here longer absolutely means I've done something special for this game by being present, and the login rewards are one way I'm rewarded for that in the same sense that the anniversary rewards are available each time you stick around to celebrate this game's beginnings.

I'm all in favor of the new 50 day tracks, but let's not downplay the commitment of logging in regularly from the conception of a game. Anyone who has been around that long knows it used to be much rougher around the edges, and I absolutely think players who take the chance of committing that much of their time to a game that may or may not last deserve unique rewards for it.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Beartornado

[MagPrime]

34 minutes ago, Beartornado said:

Does that apply to founders too who found it before anyone and committed to it when it's success was uncertain? Because I think you've got your logic backwards here, its the players who found the game late who have done nothing special for it.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not interested in superiority, I want players who find this game tomorrow to play it and love it as much as I do. But the fact that I've been here longer does mean I've been supporting this game longer, even something as simple as logging in gives better statistics, improves the chances I'll actually play daily, and might even lead to me purchasing something new with plat or at least engaging in trading for plat which encourages others to purchase plat. The fact that I've been here longer absolutely means I've done something special for this game by being present, and the login rewards are one way I'm rewarded for that in the same sense that the anniversary rewards are available each time you stick around to celebrate this game's beginnings.

I'm all in favor of the new 50 day tracks, but let's not downplay the commitment of logging in regularly from the conception of a game. Anyone who has been around that long knows it used to be much rougher around the edges, and I absolutely think players who take the chance of committing that much of their time to a game that may or may not last deserve unique rewards for it.

 

Ok, so, why do players like me get the shaft in these debates?

I honestly cannot log in every day, I have too much work and life in general happening and I can't commit even the  5 minutes a day to it, but when I have time I drop hours upon hours, and hundreds of dollars, on this game.

Am I not deserving of unique rewards for that?

The only reason I ask is because, while you have a valid point, players like me are constantly trash talked and called whiners, crybabies, etc. when we are just as devoted to the game as the 700+ day login crowd, we're just showing differently. 

(Disclaimer; I'm not stressed about login rewards either direction.  I'm not a fan of the system due to the drama and toxicity it's created and would be perfectly ok if it was killed even though I'm barely 400 days. I'm pretty ambivilant on the subject.)

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

12 hours ago, toxicpanda said:

Gah, your white knighting is indeed unwavering. I bet you will act differently, Had DE gated essential mods, and weapons behind this unfair and ungrindable wall. But sure lets strawman other individuals arguments, and label them "entitled", because we don't want to share our toys with them. The irony is oozing from this one.  

The truth of the matter is that DE messed up, by gating content, like mods and weapons, to this "daily login" system. Had this system just been purely cosmetics, I doubt people will be angry nor will they rise a stink about it. And just to be clear, locking content to this "daily login" is not okay, its malicious. 

 

Bro, I don't even have login day 300 yet....what toys am I trying to "keep to myself"?   ffs

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

10 hours ago, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

I like the current system. Speaking as someone who hasnt got everything and has a long while before getting all the stuff. 

I dont want rewards to be based solely on time played as its very hard to balance the difference between the hours played between different peoples livestyles. Honestly as a busy hard working father, having more time to play games is its own reward..lol

Having things like weapons as goals to unlock actually makes it feel worthwhile. 

If anything the two year wait for some log in rewards is good because in my opinion it rewards the people who didnt abandon the game for something else, rather than those who habitually play the hell out of something for months and then dont come back.

If it was simply for time played the content from the current system would take some people six months to get everything, but others four years just from their available time to play - how is this any fairer than the current system of it taking everyone the exact same amount of log-ins? You argue some people cannot log in every day, but likewise others cannot play for long periods of time..

 

This deserves more upvotes.

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

This deserves more upvotes.

...because it lines up with your personal views?

Make an alt account and spam the upvoted if it speaks to you so much.  But keep in mind this entire thread is based on subjectivity, there is no inherent right or wrong response to the topic.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

...because it lines up with your personal views?

Make an alt account and spam the upvoted if it speaks to you so much.  But keep in mind this entire thread is based on subjectivity, there is no inherent right or wrong response to the topic.

I'm an honest person, why would I cheat? O_o  The fact that you even suggest that does nothing but undermine your opinons here, which, honestly, I had JUST upvoted before you posted this.  Nice...

I'm not in favor of doing ANYTHING with this Login System other than what DE sees as best. I don't care if I NEVER get the damned Zenistar.  I just want to play Warframe.  Which I can already do..

So where's this hate comin' from, mate?

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I'm an honest person, why would I cheat? O_o  The fact that you even suggest that does nothing but undermine your opinons here, which, honestly, I had JUST upvoted before you posted this.  Nice...

I'm not in favor of doing ANYTHING with this Login System other than what DE sees as best. I don't care if I NEVER get the damned Zenistar.  I just want to play Warframe.  Which I can already do..

So where's this hate comin' from, mate?

What makes you think I'm hating?

[GlaikitMayflies]

Just now, MagPrime said:

...because it lines up with your personal views?

Make an alt account and spam the upvoted if it speaks to you so much.  But keep in mind this entire thread is based on subjectivity, there is no inherent right or wrong response to the topic.

Yes, I do forget that this topic is fundamentally subjective by nature. However I do get annoyed by players who are quick to dismiss criticism of the game for whatever reason. I fail to understand why no one can't just accept that DE messed up here. DE dropped the ball, on how they designed the daily login system. It reminds me of when players were defending DE during the whole prime vault cosmetic thing. 

Sigh, I got nothing else to say here. I already said my peace. At least some individuals who commented, weren't blind fans defending DE. 

To those who commented with solid objective criticism, thank you. The game cannot and will not improve if no one is willing to talk about its faults. 

 

[MagPrime]

10 minutes ago, toxicpanda said:

Yes, I do forget that this topic is fundamentally subjective by nature. However I do get annoyed by players who are quick to dismiss criticism of the game for whatever reason. I fail to understand why no one can't just accept that DE messed up here. DE dropped the ball, on how they designed the daily login system. It reminds me of when players were defending DE during the whole prime vault cosmetic thing. 

Sigh, I got nothing else to say here. I already said my peace. At least some individuals who commented, weren't blind fans defending DE. 

To those who commented with solid objective criticism, thank you. The game cannot and will not improve if no one is willing to talk about its faults. 

 

I understand and I agree that DE failed with this.  Like I posted previously, it's another Founders level fiasco.

A lot of people forget how subjective this thing is, you are correct.  It's just one if those things where it's purpose is subjective, regardless if how DE intended it to be viewed. 

Again, nothing inherently right or wrong with this mechanism, it just isn't working for this community.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

6 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I understand and I agree that DE failed with this.  Like I posted previously, it's another Founders level fiasco.

A lot of people forget how subjective this thing is, you are correct.  It's just one if those things where it's purpose is subjective, regardless if how DE intended it to be viewed. 

Again, nothing inherently right or wrong with this mechanism, it just isn't working for this community.

I think "failed" is a bit strong. And I'm not directing the below at you its just my general thoughts on the matter.

A vocal group of players hates it. Another vocal group of players likes it. And there's a big chuck of players in the middle somewhere.

Its purpose is not subjective: it exists to encourage people to login. It is not the only mechanism designed to encourage people to login: MRTest time gates, crafting time gates, manual management of extractors, daily sorties, daily standing caps.. THe list goes on and on - and everyone one of of those systems have supporters, detractors, and sheeple in the middle. Everyone of those systems has the potential to artificially limit the progression pace.  None of them mean that things are not achieveable - its just going to take some people longer than others.   Not every player will get sucked in by each mechanic  - but the net is cast wide to catch as many people as possible using as much different bait as possible.

In the end, the "problem" really is about people needing more immediate gratification in a game designed to spread that gratification out as long as possible.  The "Founders Fiasco" is hardly a fiasco - those people took a risk, and got rewarded.  Sure its too bad we peasants don't get the MR points from it, but 10k MR points in a game with millions is not game changing.  I'm well behind on the logins and don't care. 

People complaining about this, free catalyst drop frequency, doubler weekends, crafting requirements, etc just want to get what others have without putting in the time.  Yes I know - logging in and logging out doesn't feel like meaningful playtime, but neither does claiming stuff from foundry and starting the next batch.  But the the login rewards are just another thing to farm - by logging in every day.  

They give every new player 50 starter plat (on XB anyway).  I think I know where many new players spend that.

Spoiler

 

[ghoffman1928]

I created an account back in 2013 and played for 6 hours before deciding this game suuukt. Now that Warframe is the 2nd highest ranked game on steam I've decided to come back.  I deserve to be handed everything in game without working for it because I believe myself to be an OG and I was rased to be a whiney beotch in an age where everyone gets a trophy just for participating.

Edited February 28, 2018 by ghoffman1928

[MagPrime]

My comment regarding the subjectivity of the mechanism was aimed more at the concept that a lot of people have been throwing around, that it shows dedication, commitment, etc. 

Those are subjective definitions, descriptions? of the mechanic.  

Yes, the sole, unsubjective purpose is to get people to log in and play more.  

The reason I said it failed is because there have been humorous players who flat out say that they're logging in solely to progress their log in counter, no other reason.  It's not making people play the game more, so in that aspect, it's failed.

And it's failed because it's created such a divisive,  toxic, belittling, and sometimes hostile, response in the community.  i.e., crymore, crybabies, whiners, lazy players, etc. These are things that really have no place in any discussion on how to improve a mechanic for the game.  

Edited February 28, 2018 by MagPrime

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Well, people logging in for the sole purpose of progressing their login counter are likely the minority.  They may do that while waiting for new content that might interest them if they have everything else.  But even these players have value to DE in that it increases or pads their "active user" count.

[MagPrime]

Just now, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Well, people logging in for the sole purpose of progressing their login counter are likely the minority.  They may do that while waiting for new content that might interest them if they have everything else.  But even these players have value to DE in that it increases or pads their "active user" count.

I'm not saying they have no value, just that the mechanic designed to get people to play has failed, because they aren't logging into play, they're logging in to put another tally mark on the wall and then leave. 

[(PSN)VaNiDgE]

13 hours ago, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

I like the current system. Speaking as someone who hasnt got everything and has a long while before getting all the stuff. 

I dont want rewards to be based solely on time played as its very hard to balance the difference between the hours played between different peoples livestyles. Honestly as a busy hard working father, having more time to play games is its own reward..lol

Having things like weapons as goals to unlock actually makes it feel worthwhile. 

If anything the two year wait for some log in rewards is good because in my opinion it rewards the people who didnt abandon the game for something else, rather than those who habitually play the hell out of something for months and then dont come back.

If it was simply for time played the content from the current system would take some people six months to get everything, but others four years just from their available time to play - how is this any fairer than the current system of it taking everyone the exact same amount of log-ins? You argue some people cannot log in every day, but likewise others cannot play for long periods of time..

 

It doesn't matter what DE does to any systems to make people happy it will always impact someone else. This is a very good example of that.

 

[Seinerweisen]

On 2/20/2018 at 4:56 AM, (PS4)CamoLogan said:

My friends and I put tons of hours into warframe before the daily log-in was a thing. Then we stopped playing and when we started playing again we were far behind most other newer players. The log-in system needs reform such as rewards being given for playing time or at least prelog-in era people should be give some sort of hefty boost. I'm at about 270 days right now and the way the system is currently makes me want to stop playing. I don't think I'll ever make it to day 500 which is really sad. Maybe a better idea would be to take log-in reward weapons away? Or lower the number of days it takes to get them? Because my friends and I almost feel as if we have been punished for playing the game early on and I would be willing to bet that I have played longer than most players that are at or over day 500. Also signing in each day begins to feel like a chore and I find myself just signing in to get the bonus and then immediately getting off. And when I miss a day I feel as if im being punished. You would think you would want to implement a system where you are rewarded for playing rather than just signing in right? I'm sure I am not the first one to bring this topic up but I do think the log-in system needs reform.

Honestly the most ridiculous post. Not their problem that you stopped playing. That was on you. At the same time the login weapons are not gamebreakers....cept mabbe the Zenistar in certain situations.  Who cares if you have been playing longer  than people that are at day 500? The system wasnt in place. You guys don't deserve compensation. Heck the daily login does not even reset when you miss a day. Quitting playing because of the login system is foolish. 

[(XBOX)GrimEchoPrime]

Login in and out is not work stop using that as a argument my god how about they reward us for the hours we put in? actual effort that so many of you are claiming to put in

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

14 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Lets be clear here...

Objectively the current system is fair, you do the same thing as others and you get the same reward, no variation at all.

Relics aren't fair, mod drop rates aren't fair, everyone can do the same thing there and get different results, hence not fair, but the login system is fair.

Within the game context, that is, outside circumstances can always make things unfair in a way that is not part of the game nor the game's fault (E.G: you have no hands and can't play the game, not fair, but not the game's fault, same with "I couldn't play the game at time X")

Also, if someone is asking for a given reward without doing the things that other players did to get that reward, then it's not unfair to refer to that as "asking for a handout" it's not a polite way of describing it, but it's accurate.

However.

"Fair" is not the arbiter of a good game. "Fair" can be a real buzzkill when it comes to fun. "Fair" is not the end of a discussion when it comes to game design.

MR is the primary progress metric in the game, it's the progression equivalent of "level" in other games. And while "level" can often be earned from a number of different sources, in Warframe it's only available in single-use packages from each new weapon/warframe/companion. Each one of those is a discreet package of progression.

Would it be fine in other (progress focused) games to give a good weapon as a long-term login reward? Sure, as long as it's not the best weapon ever, it's just a neat thing for the "lifers" to enjoy, practically a cosmetic.

...but in warframe that is hard-locking a package of "level progress" behind a ~2 year wait, and that is terrible design (which is why DE are changing it)

So even though, personally, I'm right up there and closing on my 750 day reward (I couldn't help but miss some days) I acknowledge that the system is broken and needs to change.

If nothing from the login system gave MR, that would be different, but it does.

This is the best argument I've seen FOR changing the current system. However, as long as prime variants, new frames and weapons are released the log-in rewards are irrelevant to the mastery system; I believe, but am not certain, that they've intentionally designed it in this manner. I've never been in a situation where I didn't have enough mastery because of a log-in item. I got MR24 last summer I think and if I get off my bum and earn 5 eidolon shards I can reach Adherent level Quill and start gilding amps. Now that I think about it, DE may have the intention of adding multiple paths to mastery with the addition of Plains.

Anyway, I had to come and show appreciation for such a well-thought offering. It's actually nice to read something that came with actual thought rather than just reaction.

 

[SilentMobius]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

This is the best argument I've seen FOR changing the current system. However, as long as prime variants, new frames and weapons are released the log-in rewards are irrelevant to the mastery system; I believe, but am not certain, that they've intentionally designed it in this manner. I've never been in a situation where I didn't have enough mastery because of a log-in item. I got MR24 last summer I think and if I get off my bum and earn 5 eidolon shards I can reach Adherent level Quill and start gilding amps. Now that I think about it, DE may have the intention of adding multiple paths to mastery with the addition of Plains.

Anyway, I had to come and show appreciation for such a well-thought offering. It's actually nice to read something that came with actual thought rather than just reaction.

 

I have everything possible, I'm not alone. People who have done what I have done should not have to sit and wait for the only progress they don't have and be incapable of doing anything about it save wait.

But as I said, it's changing because DE agreed it was a bad situation.

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, LeaserResael said:

My point still stands, you said "I'm not saying they have no value, just that the mechanic designed to get people to play has failed, because they aren't logging into play, they're logging in to put another tally mark on the wall and then leave" and I simply stated that the bolded part was based on absolutely nothing. Which is true.

Out of curiosity, have you missed the posts from people over the years who openly admit that they only log in for the rewards? I mean, "confession" seems like a fairly solid thing to base a comment on.

For those people, the system is a failure. That is irrefutable. 

Also, flippancy regarding caring about things Mag previously said is fairly hostile. The comments they are referring to are relevant to the discussion. Claiming you don't care makes it look as if you intended to quote out of context of the main argument and will continue to do so.

Hostile.

Edited March 1, 2018 by DeMonkey
Sodding autocorrect