Daily Log-in Highly Unfair

[Riganone]

On 2/28/2018 at 2:50 AM, SilentMobius said:

MR is the primary progress metric in the game, it's the progression equivalent of "level" in other games. And while "level" can often be earned from a number of different sources, in Warframe it's only available in single-use packages from each new weapon/warframe/companion. Each one of those is a discreet package of progression.

Would it be fine in other (progress focused) games to give a good weapon as a long-term login reward? Sure, as long as it's not the best weapon ever, it's just a neat thing for the "lifers" to enjoy, practically a cosmetic.

...but in warframe that is hard-locking a package of "level progress" behind a ~2 year wait, and that is terrible design (which is why DE are changing it)

Good point. But a lot of players haven't already reached that point where the only remaining sources of mastery fodder are locked behind the daily login rewards. I don't have a single prime frame. It's just nice to know that after a day's worth of farming for Oberon Prime, I'm making progress in one direction even if I don't get the Oberon Prime parts that I want. There's already a lot of content locked behind farmwalls, tradewalls, and platinumwalls to keep people occupied for ages! For me, anyway. I just got to 100 day mark a few days ago. :3

[Hypernaut1]

While I'm all for DE creating paths to getting the items you want....I don't get why people feel like giving incentive to log in is a bad thing. DE created a system SPECIFICALLY to encourage logging in. If you can't participate in that system because of personal issues, you don't deserve those rewards no matter how much money you spend or time you spend binge playing in short periods. Whether you think logging in makes you play or not, the goal for this particular system is to get players to log in, anything you do after that is irrelevant.

I'm sure DE has the metrics to judge how successful it's been. It encourages players to keep thinking about Warframe. Personally, there have been times where I've played for an hour or two when I wouldn't have, when trying to maintain my log-in counter. Sometimes that 3hr boost is enough for me to stay on and forma a weapon, or gather some resources, or complete a quick sortie. 

I doubt there are many players with 700+ logins that don't also actually play the game loyally. Theoretically it could be true, but most likely signing in every day is a good metric of loyalty. Hence being rewarded for it.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

This whole thing kinda reminds me of the whole Founders issue, except instead of cash, it is time and there are way more people in the side of "haves".

Will releasing Umbra versions of those items help? 

 

Alright, jokes aside, DE already stated they are looking into modifying the current system to make it easier for new players to get the weapons and mods by selecting what reward they want to get every 50 days.

So, in that sense, it is already a huge advantage over the players who got the items via the current system.

Just chill and wait, and continue logging in as much as your time allow because most likely it will apply retroactively just like the focus update.

In other words, people who have been logging in religiously doesn't have to be screwed over as long as DE allows them to retroactively select what they want in the new system or let them have the option to hold the decision permanently.

The new system doesn't have to be reach 50 days > choose 1 reward.

It can also be reach 50 days > get 1 point to choose whatever you want and more importantly, WHENEVER you want.

This means those who have been logging in religiously but hate the cosmetics can just hold on to the points and use them later too.

[(PSN)Synkreto]

I like to think of it as a LoginGift rather than a reward. I do not understand how people expect to be rewarded for logging into, and/or playing a game . I mean, what next, rewards for reading Forums or sthg...?

Iirc the little I read on psychology of motivation, extrinsic motivation is much weaker and less sustainable than intrinsic motivation . Mapping this onto Warframe, I understand this as :

People who log in and play the game for wanting to play it cos they like it, want to meet and play with friends, help new players etc. - intrinsic motivation - are likely to continously do so for comparably long  . People who login and play out of a desire to be rewarded, to earn rewards, or because they want to be part of the hype etc. - extrinsic motivation - will likely not be(come) ongoing, longterm players and supporters of the Game .

Fun fact, psychology says if you start rewarding people for something they do cos they really like to - strong intrinsic motivation - it is possible that by adding the extrinsic motivation - reward - you actually put them off doing said thing, and it may lead to them stop doing it alltogether .

Much of the beauty of Warframe lies in the fact that DE does NOT manipulate people by playing the reward portion of Player's brains to make them spend money...in fact they do the exact opposite . MAD props , and tons of brownie points for integrity .

In that context, I find hard to believe that the LoginBonus has been installed to entice people to log in and play more continously . I rather see it as a "Hey ! Nice you are back ." kind of gift .

Seeing it that way, or similar, may well be the reason why some people have no Problem whatsoever with it . Me personally, I could not care less . I log in to play, trade etc., I do that because and when I want to ( I think I "missed" almost 100 days of Login since I started playing ), and I would continue to do so even if they decided to simply take it away entirely tomorrow - and I am below 100 days, so no Zenistar for me in that case . 

Food for thought, hopefully .

Edited March 1, 2018 by (PS4)Synkreto

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

I don't think it is unfait as it is short sighted the longer it goes on.

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

On 26/02/2018 at 9:16 AM, -Trey- said:

Let me explain. He asked what makes you special snowflake, because you are quite literally asking for these rewards to be easier to obtain for you, than they were to everyone else. Your so called challenges could be redone by me today, in a single day. You are essentially asking to replace 800 days with 1 day because you don't feel like waiting, so you do consider yourself special snowflake.

actually No. i dont want these rewards made easier. i want them to be rewarded for actual effort. you know if you actually bothered to take my arguments at face value instead of straw manning them because its easier to dismantle my argument when it fits your narrative.  youd realise i want to actually be rewarded by completing tangible tasks in game. those ones i gave were mere examples of what they could do. theres a plethora of hard to do tasks they can lock these rewards behind. participation trophies which you defend religiously are nothing more then "show up and get paid" they breed a toxic mindset that society does not need. its rather ironic however that you say i want these just given to me. but you actually support that very mechanic you accuse me of wanting. IE. being just handed the rewards for doing nothing. you accusing me of this stuff actually only highlights you're own hypocrisy. 

i would be more lenient with the current log in system if it required the person to complete a ingame task for that day in order to claim the reward for that day. IE you are to recieve the zenistar today but before you can claim it you have to complete the randomly generated task for that day which could range anywhere from complete a syndicate mission all the way to completing a trial or even having to complete 50 Waves of defence on solo against lvl 30 enemies. you know like the rivens challenges. if you cant complete the task for today you can wait til tomorrow for the task to be reset and change to something else. you know actually rewarding the player for doing things ingame other then just logging in and being done with it. 

 

oh and congratulations on being apart of the minority who can do all of that stuff i mentioned in 1 day. you know the majority of players arent like you? you are the exception. not the Rule. youd do well to remember that.

[DrakoKnight48]

On 2/20/2018 at 4:58 AM, kuciol said:

Locking PLAYABLE CONTENT behind time walls, 1 times events, platforms etc is never a good thing and something i despise the most in gaming. This mentality of "ive found game before you therefor im better" is the most f up thing about gaming communities in every game. Denying the content to others just because you want to feel special is just childish.  You did nothing special for it , just happened to find the game faster than the others.

AKA: Founder's Pack. 

[Kinjeto]

"Mahke it ezy pwease."
"No long term systems pwease."
"I want it handed to me pwease."

So the degradation of this game continues into the dust.

Just the same thing that happened to
* The focus system with the Brilliant Eidolon Shards
* The arcane long-term system from raids.

Make it ezy pwease. There's no commitment, resilience or timelessness any more.
It's all "I want it now.",  "make it easy pwease."

Just like the previous post about the Eidolon, which basically shows what I keep seeing in this forum.
Hence, a comparison to what I keep seeing in this game.
 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Kinjeto

[DogManDan]

I am going to mark this thread so I can come back and read more for the LOLs when I need a pick me up!

Such whining about a daily login system in a GAME the world is not going to end because but boy people certainly make it sound like it. OMG I can't get the DAILY REWARD I want because I have chosen to take time off.... OMG I think my 100000000 hours of AFK time should entitle me to automatic jumps in the DAILY system designed for the players who actually have taken the time to follow a simple thing of logging in!

Guess most of these people do not and/or have not played other games with a daily login system. Dedication has its benefits, costs you nothing but a couple minutes of your time daily.

[xXDeadsinxX]

16 minutes ago, DogManDan said:

I am going to mark this thread so I can come back and read more for the LOLs when I need a pick me up!

Such whining about a daily login system in a GAME the world is not going to end because but boy people certainly make it sound like it. OMG I can't get the DAILY REWARD I want because I have chosen to take time off.... OMG I think my 100000000 hours of AFK time should entitle me to automatic jumps in the DAILY system designed for the players who actually have taken the time to follow a simple thing of logging in!

Guess most of these people do not and/or have not played other games with a daily login system. Dedication has its benefits, costs you nothing but a couple minutes of your time daily.

Well said! Absolutely agree.

[KayserEnd]

I'm at day 93, so I haven't got even the first weapon from the daily login, I don't have any problem with the system since I still have a lot to do in the game, and I've played other games with daily rewards before (there are some differences between other games' and warframe's system but that isn't the point). Remember that this is my opinion, and should be taken just like that. About the proposed change of choosing a milestone, everything can be improved, and if there's a way to make the current login reward more flexible, I think it's we should try it, but maybe there's a better way to do it. 

Any cosmetic price (like the syandana you get after 800 logins) shouldn't be considered to be given to newer players. You should only be able to get that syandana after 800 logins, not less. The reason to do this would be that each one of the items you get from this system is a "batch of honor", it gives a different status (similar to the excal prime, but in a lesser extend).  The problem here is that the weapons are cosmetics too, just with the added benefit of gameplay changes. But most of the weapons in the daily login have unique mechanics, meaning newer players are getting locked out of those mechanics.

A possible solution would be to add less powerful weapons that use similar mechanics so newer people don't feel like they are losing that much, but part of the fun of the weapons from the login system are the mechanics that came with them, so this solution has the danger of roving part of the unique feel of this weapons.

Other option would be to give a cosmetic gift to the players that already have the items, like skins for each weapon that are exclusive to them, and go forward with the choose your milestone system. The problem here is that the cosmetic variant has to be noticeable enough to not bother the older players and to actually fulfill the idea of the cosmetic.

In conclusion, any change to an old system will have backlash, and could result in a weaker or more unfair system, or it can lead us to a better and more fair system, too. Getting angry about a discussion (for offensive it could seem) isn't going to help at all, we have to be calm to think and get to the best solution possible.

PS: I'm Chilean, so English isn't my first language (and we're famous as being bad at our own language) so sorry for any inconvenience.

 

[LabMan95]

The only issue I have with the daily login system is the sigma and octantis is glaringly on the "melee weapons completed" part of your profile. It just sitting there is a solid "screw you, you're still X days from achieving 100% even though you have literally everything else in the game you possibly can". The azima, zenistar, and zenith don't show up on this list, why should the furthest weapon away show up?

[Dallas]

Locking exclusive weapons and especially primed mods behind a 2 year log in system is ridiculous. I can see having cosmetics and slots and stuff, but not what we have now. 

[Red3Ninja]

On 2/20/2018 at 5:18 AM, WhiteMarker said:

Where is the "F*** you"?
Did you play for the same amount of time others did? You did not. No F*** you here.
The LogIn-Rewards aren't unfair. If they were unfair, this would mean, everyone gets treated differently. That's not the case. Everyone gets the same treatment. And the systems is extremely fair because of that.
Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it fair? Yes, 1000 times yes.

uh no they did not, pretty sure I have more play hours than some nub

[MagPrime]

On 3/1/2018 at 12:06 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

While I'm all for DE creating paths to getting the items you want....I don't get why people feel like giving incentive to log in is a bad thing. DE created a system SPECIFICALLY to encourage logging in. If you can't participate in that system because of personal issues, you don't deserve those rewards no matter how much money you spend or time you spend binge playing in short periods. Whether you think logging in makes you play or not, the goal for this particular system is to get players to log in, anything you do after that is irrelevant.

I'm sure DE has the metrics to judge how successful it's been. It encourages players to keep thinking about Warframe. Personally, there have been times where I've played for an hour or two when I wouldn't have, when trying to maintain my log-in counter. Sometimes that 3hr boost is enough for me to stay on and forma a weapon, or gather some resources, or complete a quick sortie. 

I doubt there are many players with 700+ logins that don't also actually play the game loyally. Theoretically it could be true, but most likely signing in every day is a good metric of loyalty. Hence being rewarded for it.

So, basically, a system that is generally considered a reward for dedicated/commited/loyal gameplay is fair, even though it only rewards a narrow view of those three things?

Dedication, commitment and loyalty can be shown in a variety of ways, not just by logging in every day.  The post I think you're alluding to tried to tackle that concept but I never got a response.

The issue I have with the claim that the log in rewards are for dedication/commitment/loyalty is  that, as previously said, there are multiple ways to show that, not just by logging in everyday, and it can be unfair (gosh I hate that word) to people who show dedication/commitment/loyalty in a different way. 

Going by the Merriam Webster dictionary definition of fair, this system is marked by favoritism in that it rewards a specific type of player; the ones who can log in everyday.  By that definition, the system is a failure because it isn't fair for the entire playerbase.

Do you believe that it's "fair" for a subset of players to be rewarded for having an ability that many people don't? 

I have no issue with the changes either, I've even posted a disclaimer explaining my position, I'm just genuinely curious about what seems like a cognitive dissonance in the community. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by MagPrime

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, MagPrime said:

So, basically, a system that is generally considered a reward for dedicated/commited/loyal gameplay is fair, even though it only rewards a narrow view of those three things?

Dedication, commitment and loyalty can be shown in a variety of ways, not just by logging in every day.  The post I think you're alluding to tried to tackle that concept but I never got a response.

The issue I have with the claim that the log in rewards are for dedication/commitment/loyalty is  that, as previously said, there are multiple ways to show that, not just by logging in everyday, and it can be unfair (gosh I hate that word) to people who show dedication/commitment/loyalty in a different way. 

Going by the Merriam Webster dictionary definition of fair, this system is marked by favoritism in that it rewards a specific type of player; the ones who can log in everyday.  By that definition, the system is a failure because it isn't fair for the entire playerbase.

Do you believe that it's "fair" for a subset of players to be rewarded for having an ability that many people don't? 

I have no issue with the changes either, I've even posted a disclaimer explaining my position, I'm just genuinely curious about what seems like a cognitive dissonance in the community. 

I simply don't buy the argument that there are tons of people who log in everyday for 800 days and don't actually play. 

Sure, people love to argue that point, but I think the reality is that the players logging in faithfully everyday are most likely also playing, paying and enjoying the game too. Therefore, I believe the login in system is indeed a reliable way to measure overall loyalty. It also ensures you continually check out the game. It makes sense. 

The rewards are specifically for logging in though. No matter what anyone tries to add to that definition, it's for logging in. it's purpose is to reward logging in, and that's what it does. That's what it was created for. To encourage players to log in.

If a player can't login every day , then they just can't. It's not on DE to cater to someone's so called busy life schedule. DEs goal with this particular system is to get people to log in and reward longevity and consistency. Spending money has its own rewards. Binge playing over the weekend has it's own rewards. Going to tennocon every year has its own rewards. Streaming has its own rewards. Logging in faithfully everyday for 3+ years also comes with it's own rewards.

So yes, I do think it's fair. Everyone can claim to be Warframes biggest fan, but logging in is concrete. For every person that has work, family, a life to live and can't log in, there are those that have the same responsibilities and DO log in. 

I don't think that everyone needs to take the same track to get rewards, but I do believe that it should take 800+ of logging in to earn everything like everyone else.

Anyone can drop 1k on warframe and be done with it in a month. Anyone can binge play for a few weeks and be done with Warframe forever. It takes a special player, IMO, to faithfully login everyday for 800+ days and make Warframe part of your daily routine. To me that's more impressive. I don't know how DE feels about the matter, but I get it. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[MagPrime]

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I simply don't buy the argument that there are tons of people who log in everyday for 800 days and don't actually play. 

Sure, people love to argue that point, but I think the reality is that the players logging in faithfully everyday are most likely also playing, paying and enjoying the game too. Therefore, I believe the login in system is indeed a reliable way to measure loyalty. It also ensures you continually check out the game. It makes sense. 

The rewards are specifically for logging in though. No matter what anyone tries to add to that definition, it's for logging in. it's purpose is to reward logging in, and that's what it does.

If a player can't login every day , then they just can't. It's not on DE to cater to someone's so called busy life schedule. DEs goal with this particular system is to get people to log in and reward longevity and consistency. Spending money has its own rewards. Binge playing over the weekend has it's own rewards. Logging in faithfully everyday for 3+ years also comes with it's own rewards.

So yes, I do think it's fair. Everyone can claim to be Warframes biggest fan, but logging in is concrete. For every person that has work, family, a life to live and can't log in, there are those that have the same responsibilities and DO log in. 

I don't think that everyone needs to take the same track to get rewards, but I do believe that it should take 800+ of logging in to earn everything like everyone else.

Anyone can drop 1k on warframe and be done with it in a month. Anyone can binge play for a few weeks and be done with Warframe forever. It takes a special player, IMO, to faithfully login everyday for 800+ days and make Warframe part of your daily routine. To me that's more impressive. I don't know how DE feels about the matter, but I get it. 

While i dont agree, thank you for taking the time to elaborate. 

I personally don't find daily logins a viable metric for loyalty because it's such a subjective concept.  I personally would see it as a metric for measuring addiction or obsession, however, and the arguments that the system doesn't work as the incentive to play the game are, mostly, based on people's out right admission that they are only logging in to advance the counter and not playing. 

Do youeasure loyalty only using the daily login metric, or are there other concepts that you use as well?

Edited March 4, 2018 by MagPrime

[John.exe]

On 3/3/2018 at 7:48 PM, Kinjeto said:

"Mahke it ezy pwease."
"No long term systems pwease."
"I want it handed to me pwease."

So the degradation of this game continues into the dust.

Just the same thing that happened to
* The focus system with the Brilliant Eidolon Shards
* The arcane long-term system from raids.

Make it ezy pwease. There's no commitment, resilience or timelessness any more.
It's all "I want it now.",  "make it easy pwease."

Just like the previous post about the Eidolon, which basically shows what I keep seeing in this forum.
Hence, a comparison to what I keep seeing in this game.
 

It is sad to see that you don't see the bigger picture here. I am still under 50 log-ins and it is quite discouraging to see the primed mods that I will have to wait months or years to get. That part you probably already understand, but what you seem to be missing is the fact that I will ALWAYS be 800 days behind. Whatever things get released through the daily log-in system (with the power creep they will certainly be getting better and better) I will NEVER get to enjoy using those things when they come out. I will always have to watch others use them for 2 whole years before I can have one, and nothing can change that. No amount of platinum, no amount of loyalty or dedication to the game, nothing. I would never ask to just have things handed to me, but it is just so discouraging to be permanently behind by more than 2 years. Even if I was allowed an extra log in on Saturdays or something, that would entirely fix the issue. Even though I would still have to wait something crazy like 16 years of logging in every day, eventually I would catch up. Something just to help give the feeling that you are catching up, no matter how slowly. But instead new players are stuck in this system of always being so far behind. In 2 years we could have the mods we see now, but we will still be in the very same situation of looking at the 2 years of log-in bonuses ahead of us at that time. Weapons and cosmetics I do not care about, mods are just too universal and not as easily substituted. If you still think that it is a good idea to have a system where new players will always be stuck years behind other players, I don't think you are thinking about what is best for the game. And just to clarify, I am not whining or complaining, I am explaining to you why people raise this as an issue. If none of that connected with you, then consider this: a new player would probably rather start playing a newer game, or a game without such a massive time wall separating players that way they wouldn't... you know, be permanently behind everyone else.

[MickThejaguar]

On 2/20/2018 at 6:29 AM, WhiteMarker said:

Yes, it is fair to reward to player that logs into the game every day.
Let me put it this way: I want all the weapons maxed and I want the mastery for these weapons. But I don't want to rank them up. I want them leveled for free.
That's what you want. You want something without doing something for it.
Why can the player not log into the game for 1 minute every day? It's not that difficult to do.

And let's be honest:
If you don't have access to the internet on a daily basis, then you have other things to worry about. Things that are more important than a video game.

The flaw of this statement is that you're implying that people want the daily log-in rewards for free, which isn't the case. What people want is a way to get the weapons and mods that isn't a several year time gate. If there was a reasonable way to earn the weapons through game play, then no one would have an issue. Time gating weapons and primed mods has always been a bad idea and will continue to be so. I'd much rather that log-in rewards be more cosmetic, like syandanas and armor sets as they do the job of showing off how consistently someone plays without time gating  playable content. 

[True_Naeblis]

Honestly it's silly. A player who takes two minutes to hop on the game each day is rewarded more than one who plays for hours and supports the game regularly but may have instances of not being able to log on due to travel for work, real life events, etc.

You know what daily login systems are for? To inflate login and peak numbers, and to keep them steady, that's it. They make sure that every single day as many people as possible get onto the game, even if it's just for the brief moment it takes to get the reward and log back out. It's a cheap and easy way to make that happen.

Someone who maxed their MR and every item that they could and played from the start then took a break before this was implemented, who played regularly, having to start from scratch and being so far behind is a design that does nothing to reward players who kept the game alive by actually playing.

It's good that they're finally changing, and it really can't happen soon enough. Feeling that we have to micromanage something as silly as making sure we're on each day to get rewards rather than playing as we're able and enjoying the content is silly in every game that it's a part of. Guild Wars 2 has a similar system, and the way it ties those rewards to getting in game every single day rather than simply just playing also got on my nerves. Reward me for taking part in the game, not for getting on when the daily reset happens.

Edited April 23, 2018 by True_Naeblis
clarity

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I cannot believe this topic is still going.  Must be a slow month....

 

[(XBOX)embryosrage]

On 2/20/2018 at 5:42 AM, kuciol said:

No but they can make them more frequently, like razorback / fomorian or ghouls. 1-3 months is reasonable waiting time, 2 years is not. 2 years of waiting and you cant do anything about it. Thats what i call stupid and unreasonable. No other game i know locks playable content behind such insane time wall without any alternatives.

Ahem.. Destiny.

[Wesgile]

Loving the blatant discrepancy of tone between this and the Lato/Braton Vandal threads. Even coming from the same users.