Bounties: Ruined PoE; Will Make Venus Dead on Arrival

[BlackCoMerc]

Bounties have lost their luster. Almost no one really enjoys them at this point. So many rewards have been locked behind them that some players will still run them. But tolerance is a far cry from enjoyment. And I think its safe to say that, at this point, most people do not enjoy bounty missions. And its no surprise. They are fairly low effort missions. Defend this. Escort that. Clear this small group, and THEN defend that. And they just repeat. Over and over again. Until players are - quite literally - sick of them.

Reliance on Bounties in PoE has absolutely killed the fun of the entire landscape. Many players who might otherwise enjoy PoE - like me - wont go there, because we absolutely hate Bounties. And outside of Bounties, there is literally no reason to visit the plains (other than 50 minutes at a time of Eidolons, which, thanks to forced Operator combat, are neither fun nor worthwhile). 

If Bounties were discontinued, or made optional, and their rewards were simply spread around PoE's landscape, however...if we could just take down enemies, clear camps and caves, stumble onto Excavators and maybe the occasional, single mission Incursion...all while obtaining the rewards previously locked behind Bounties...that would make PoE one of the most enjoyable experiences in Open World gaming. Combine Warframe's movement and powers with the freedom of a Far Cry game, no more forced, scripted Bounties...I'd have a hard time playing any other game. Ever.

But instead, we get Bounties. Tired. Boring. Repetitive. Unstable and riddled with bugs. They have drained PoE of fun. 

And now, Venus approaches. We dont know when. Maybe not soon. But I do know this much:

At this point, its obvious that Open Landscapes are the future of Warframe. And why not. People like open worlds. Its popular. And it also solves much of the overpowered Warframe powers issue, because it scatters enemies out, making us less effective in terms of raw power and AoE CC ability, while not explicitly nerfing our frames. Its a nice move, really. Very clever. I mean that. 

But Bounties will kill it. And I dont mean just copying the same ones we have. I mean any reliance on the same system. The same brief, scripted, repeating mission rotations crammed into areas smaller than the average tile chunk. The same forced repetition. The same old "reward rotation" system. After the utter debacle that has been the Vaulted Relics and the Bounty blowback, turning once more to such a system with Venus will make the entire affair pointless. 

Its time for DE to recognize that though they have come to realize that people love open world games, they fail to understand WHY people love them. Many of us like the freedom. Of approach. To explore. We want to go out into the world, and FIND rewards. Or earn them. Not by waiting on a clock to ticket down while we stand in one place, firing weapons and spamming powers. But organically, by just...doing things out in the world. A fair number of gamers play open world games for the exploration the freedom to approach missions and areas and enemies their own way...and Bounties completely undermine everything we love about large, open maps, by removing that freedom and rendering the openness irrelevant. 

So please, DE...consider another bold change. You're clearly moving away from horde mode in closed off rooms. You have clearly determined that its time for a serious change of design direction. So make it a COMPLETE change. As you transition into open world type Landscapes, transition not only in terms of map design...but also in terms of supporting systems. Put the rewards out in the world, and let players go get them. Organically. By taking popup missions out in the world, through exploration, clearing enemy checkpoints, bases, etc. Through exploration.

Warframe is growing up. Mission Rotation reward schemes are outdated, skinner mode design methods. The sorts of things found in the mindless horde mode shooters Warframe used to be, in its infancy. But its time to grow. To mature. And its time to let go of juvenile systems like rotation rewards and transition to more organic systems that reward players for simply playing the game, as opposed to running on a scripted mission treadmill. 

[peterc3]

A wall of text to say nothing, really. Missions in the new content are killing the new content.

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

By taking popup missions out in the world, through exploration, clearing enemy checkpoints, bases, etc. Through exploration.

They're called Incursions and they're already there. Oh wait, they won't pop up ever unless you go to the right place at the right time. Sounds totally fun.

Organic, organic, OrGaNiC. Organic is great for a game built entirely around the concept. This is Warframe. Any new content may look different but the underlying systems will be the same.

I get the sense that you don't like the game all that much.

Have Survival missions killed Warframe? Have Defense or Interception or Exterminate killed it?

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

Really I just hope they add more activities in general. PoE was round 1 and we see what worked and what tired out quickly. 

 

I have no issues with Bounties. I just wish there were a good 3-5 more activities to do out there to bounce between.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, peterc3 said:

A wall of text to say nothing, really. Missions in the new content are killing the new content.

They're called Incursions and they're already there. Oh wait, they won't pop up ever unless you go to the right place at the right time. Sounds totally fun.

Organic, organic, OrGaNiC. Organic is great for a game built entirely around the concept. This is Warframe. Any new content may look different but the underlying systems will be the same.

I get the sense that you don't like the game all that much.

Have Survival missions killed Warframe? Have Defense or Interception or Exterminate killed it?

So everyone is happy with bounties and cant wait for more and DE should just continue to rely on this system, seeing as how everyone is completely enamored of it and its just me who doesnt like it?

Sure. Ok. Nice try. Next time, please actually contribute.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, (PS4)Vagnar said:

Really I just hope they add more activities in general. PoE was round 1 and we see what worked and what tired out quickly. 

 

I have no issues with Bounties. I just wish there were a good 3-5 more activities to do out there to bounce between.

Thats a fair point. While I loathe bounties at this point (and have for some time) who knows? If we actually had other, rewarding, activities to do in between (and I dont count Incursions, because they are just...MORE BOUNTIES) it might not be so bad. 

But it is bad. And I really dont think "Bounties in a Snow Covered environment" is going to fly very well with players at this point. And thats what I worry we are headed for.

[chainchompguy3]

22 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Its time for DE to recognize that though they have come to realize that people love open world games, they fail to understand WHY people love them. Many of us like the freedom. Of approach. To explore. We want to go out into the world, and FIND rewards. Or earn them. Not by waiting on a clock to ticket down while we stand in one place, firing weapons and spamming powers. But organically, by just...doing things out in the world. A fair number of gamers play open world games for the exploration the freedom to approach missions and areas and enemies their own way...and Bounties completely undermine everything we love about large, open maps, by removing that freedom and rendering the openness irrelevant.

Based on how I skimmed your post, your entire argument can be boiled down to just this 1 paragraph.

 

 

[peterc3]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So everyone is happy with bounties and cant wait for more and DE should just continue to rely on this system, seeing as how everyone is completely enamored of it and its just me who doesnt like it?

Sure. Ok. Nice try. Next time, please actually contribute.

How does that, in any way, shape or form match the dire wall of text you wrote? People aren't happy with anything that gets in the way of them getting their shinies instantly. Surprise, new content has bugs. "Rely" on missions/quests/bounties, a cornerstone of RPGs since time immemorial.

[BBaw]

I don't understand this.  I mean I totally get what you're saying, I just don't think you've thought it through or maybe just don't understand what it means.  So lets break it down.

1. We get rid of bounties,  everything becomes free roam mode

2. We populate the world with items or rewards we would otherwise find in bounties. 

3. Everything becomes hunter gather mode.  Four people join a mission and hang out for an indefinite amount of time and open chests or kill enemies to get them to drop these items.  This has been done before in games, extensively.  Some people find that type of grind insanely boring and shun it.  And it is in fact a grind.  Some of this already happens in warframe.

We have many different methods of picking up items and rewards in warframe.  Some things can be purchased outright from the market.  Some things can be purchased from other players.  Some things drop from enemies or chests.  Some things are gathered through mission alerts.  Some things are gathered through special one time events.  Some things gifted.  Some items are given to you in your inbox for watching a live stream.   Some items are rewarded as a result of storyline quests.   Some things you have to work for, some things are absolutely free.

This blows my mind every time I see it and sadly I see it a lot.  This game is not a grind at all.  I've been gaming for probably longer than some of you have been alive.  Grindy, this is not. At all.  There are grindy games out there and they absolutely can put you through years of torment just to get and maintain the best things in game.  I literally just started this game recently and I already have over half of everything you can get in it.  It did not take me much time to get these things either.  Sometimes I feel like half of it was just given to me its so easy to get hold of.

Bounties are nothing more than a structured way to enter the world and they allow you to pick and choose which rewards you want to get and when.   It keeps us from having to rely on the random number generator and coming out of a mission with 99 of the things we don't want at all and allow us to pick up the items we're after via currency afterwards.  I love it, its a great method of  obtaining items and its one of the many many many ways we can do that in warframe.  Its a far cry better than the way a lot of games used to be.

I can honestly say I really really enjoy warframes methods,  and I'm loving this game.  The only thing in this game I would say even remotely comes close to a grind is just the sheer volume of things you can obtain in it.  Yea, that part is grindy,  but who in the world would complain about that?

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, peterc3 said:

How does that, in any way, shape or form match the dire wall of text you wrote? People aren't happy with anything that gets in the way of them getting their shinies instantly. Surprise, new content has bugs. "Rely" on missions/quests/bounties, a cornerstone of RPGs since time immemorial.

Surprise. Its not new content anymore. There is no excuse for the number of bugs remaining in PoE. And dont try the line about Beta. The game hasnt been in Beta for years. Or the one about this tiny little Indie company...with their $70+ MILLION in revenue. DE have had plenty of time to work on bounties. They have chosen not to do so, for whatever reason. And yet, they keep pushing them despite their being a bug ridden mess (not to mention, tired and long past their welcome). 

[Historic_Alchemist]

I really like the idea of getting the rewards from exploring rather than doing the same repetitive bounties.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Historic_Alchemist said:

I really like the idea of getting the rewards from exploring rather than doing the same repetitive bounties.

Ditto.

And contrary to other posts, I am not saying there should be no scripted missions in the open areas. There should be. That's fine.

But that should not be the only thing there. If it is...why have the big, open area? As a time sink to walk across? I dont need more of that; I have 200 games in my Steam library that offer that already. And most of them do it better. 

What we need is a healthy mix of organic exploration and stumbling onto missions...coupled with some structured missions. Take a look at games like Wildlands, or Assassins Creed: Origins, or even Far Cry games, for a good mix of structured missions and free roam side activities in open worlds. They could use more refinement, but its a good start. 

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

I really just look at Bounties like any other farm related activity. We farm them till we have what we need and we stop doing them. They can stay, but we just need more. Things like Plaguestar and Ghouls were definitely fun while they lasted before it went back to the same ol same ol.

I hope with Venus they add things like

1) Rare spawns / hunts that we have to figure out on our own terms to draw them out.

2) Some kind of push/pull relationship with the opposing faction and outposts and such that updates every week or so and keeps people going out there to try to maintain or reclaim territory.

3) Actual sidequests from NPCs in town that send out there to do random tasks.

Slap some stuff like that in there, maybe go back to PoE and add things that work and see what works and what doesn't and add even more with the third landscape.

[Aggh]

The only real problem with bounties is the rewards.  They should have different bounty queues for lower/higher mastery rank players.   The lower level bounties have no real meaning for people that have made it even a bit through the game's content.  Incursions need better rewards too.  The open world needs NPCs too.  Even non combat bounties could spice things up a bit.  So while there's nothing particularly wrong bounties (we've been playing the same missions in a different context for a while now, you're a bit late if you think this kind of gameplay is destroying the game) they could be fleshed out.

[Sajochi]

Ah, yet another one of your threads; let's see if I can find anything that isn't hyperbole or just personal preference.....

Nope, same old thing, different day. I like the bounties, and I'm excited for the new landscape. Please stop trying to speak for me and speak for yourself. Also, you can condense this to "I don't like the plains structure, here's some suggestions based on my experience."

Edited February 26, 2018 by Sajochi

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Aggh said:

The only real problem with bounties is the rewards.  They should have different bounty queues for lower/higher mastery rank players.   The lower level bounties have no real meaning for people that have made it even a bit through the game's content.  Incursions need better rewards too.  The open world needs NPCs too.  Even non combat bounties could spice things up a bit.  So while there's nothing particularly wrong bounties (we've been playing the same missions in a different context for a while now, you're a bit late if you think this kind of gameplay is destroying the game) they could be fleshed out.

Sure. Aside from their being unreliable, bug ridden, glitchy, repetitive, extremely basic, limited to tiny areas and completely lacking in either variety or challenge...Bounties are fine. Sure. 

Sarcasm aside, I agree with much of your post. The world needs fleshed out. Incursions do indeed need better rewards. They also need to not be recycled Bounty missions. There is indeed a ton DE could do to spice up the open spaces. 

[Aggh]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Sure. Aside from their being unreliable, bug ridden, glitchy, repetitive, extremely basic, limited to tiny areas and completely lacking in either variety or challenge...Bounties are fine. Sure.

You just described most of warframe.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Sajochi said:

Ah, yet another one of your thread let's see if I can find anything that isn't hyperbole or just personal preference.....

Nope, same old thing, different day. I like the bounties, and I'm excited for the new landscape. Please stop trying to speak for me and speak for yourself. Also, you can condense this to "I don't like the plains structure, here's some suggestions based on my experience."

Perhaps I am not speaking for you. Though I wouldnt mind speaking for numerous players who protested yet more bounties when the vaulted relics rolled out. It was nothing more than DE wanting to point investors to PoE and say, "See? Look at ALL THESE PLAYERS playing the new content we spent months on" and hoping no one would ask why. 

If you really think "More Bounties, but with snow and ice" will entice players when Venus rolls out, fine. We will see. But...I dont think thats gonna cut it.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Aggh said:

You just described most of warframe.

To be fair, this is absolutely true. I am not even angry about it. It just is what it is.

[Sajochi]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Perhaps I am not speaking for you. 

You are correct

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Though I wouldnt mind speaking for numerous players who protested yet more bounties when the vaulted relics rolled out.

Not your job. Use your own experiences. 

The rest is hyperbole.

 

[BBaw]

Speaking for myself.  I love the bounties, I love the rewards, I love that we get currency for doing them to buy more things from the vendors.  I like the fact that some of the rewards are warframes and weapon and lenses and,  good grief the only thing they don't give you is cosmetics.  Except I now have a whole pile of Eidolons cluttering up my ship!  So, they even do that.  I love that we can go back into the plains in free roam mode to do all sorts of things, fishing, mining, exploring, cave diving, flying, the day and night cycles are awesome.  Its just a whole lotta fun.  So much to do.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Sure. Aside from their being unreliable, bug ridden, glitchy, repetitive, extremely basic, limited to tiny areas and completely lacking in either variety or challenge...Bounties are fine. Sure. 

Unreliable, bug ridden and glitchy are all the same thing.

Repetitive, basic, limited areas, lacking variety (same as repetitive) or challenge... these are all common within the rest of the game?

So you took 8 descriptives to define bounties as ''buggier than normal missions''... Do you not think that's a bit hyperbolic? 

I doubt personally that anything grand will change to make the game more ''organic''. The entire foundation of the game is the do x mission, get chances at x rewards.

Could incursions be fleshed out a bit? Sure, that's basically what you're asking, right? Missions that appear naturally as you explore, allowing you to wander around and get loot. I have no problems with that.

DE aren't going to do away with the bounties though, and the bounties will always be more efficient than wandering around and hoping to find loot. Thus people simply won't do the exploring gig.

[chainchompguy3]

8 minutes ago, BBaw said:

I don't understand this.  I mean I totally get what you're saying, I just don't think you've thought it through or maybe just don't understand what it means.  So lets break it down.

1. We get rid of bounties,  everything becomes free roam mode

2. We populate the world with items or rewards we would otherwise find in bounties. 

3. Everything becomes hunter gather mode.  Four people join a mission and hang out for an indefinite amount of time and open chests or kill enemies to get them to drop these items.  This has been done before in games, extensively.  Some people find that type of grind insanely boring and shun it.  And it is in fact a grind.  Some of this already happens in warframe.

We have many different methods of picking up items and rewards in warframe.  Some things can be purchased outright from the market.  Some things can be purchased from other players.  Some things drop from enemies or chests.  Some things are gathered through mission alerts.  Some things are gathered through special one time events.  Some things gifted.  Some items are given to you in your inbox for watching a live stream.   Some items are rewarded as a result of storyline quests.   Some things you have to work for, some things are absolutely free.

This blows my mind every time I see it and sadly I see it a lot.  This game is not a grind at all.  I've been gaming for probably longer than some of you have been alive.  Grindy, this is not. At all.  There are grindy games out there and they absolutely can put you through years of torment just to get and maintain the best things in game.  I literally just started this game recently and I already have over half of everything you can get in it.  It did not take me much time to get these things either.  Sometimes I feel like half of it was just given to me its so easy to get hold of.

Bounties are nothing more than a structured way to enter the world and they allow you to pick and choose which rewards you want to get and when.   It keeps us from having to rely on the random number generator and coming out of a mission with 99 of the things we don't want at all and allow us to pick up the items we're after via currency afterwards.  I love it, its a great method of  obtaining items and its one of the many many many ways we can do that in warframe.  Its a far cry better than the way a lot of games used to be.

I can honestly say I really really enjoy warframes methods,  and I'm loving this game.  The only thing in this game I would say even remotely comes close to a grind is just the sheer volume of things you can obtain in it.  Yea, that part is grindy,  but who in the world would complain about that?

I guess you can boil that down to a slight double-meaning of the term "Grind".

 

The game is not grindy, no, when Grind is defined by essentially working the game as a job in order to get or maintain your current power level / gear, etc.

Warframe is far from that: most everything in the game can be gotten in just a few quick missions, all of which are no less fun than any of the rest of the content.

 

But if you define Grind as merely gameplay that is only really Extrinsically rewarding, as opposed to Intrinsically, then the game is Grind-tastic.

After the initial enjoyment of being a demi-god among fodder, the rush quickly fades.

Nothing poses much of a threat, and when it does, it's because it just has really big numbers, or cancels out powers in the lamest way possible.

So players largely play for the stuff, the rewards they can get.

 

Compare this to other games, where skill matters much more, and the game has adequately thought-out difficulty.

The gameplay is enjoyable in of itself. If the game provided nothing as a reward, players would still play it.

 

That's not to say you can't like the gameplay of warframe, though. The rush of empowerment lasts longer for some than others, and there are many ways to change what you play so that it can continue to provide some degree of satisfaction.

But I seriously doubt that the majority of the playerbase would continue to play if all content was available from the start, and there was thus nothing to give to the player as a mission reward.

[Oreades]

I don't think it is so much that the bounties ruined PoE I think it is that they kept hammering and hammering and hammering the bounties. When they weren't hammering the bounties they where hammering the bounties. 

I'm sure the intent was to get people to try the Plains out but all it did for me was burn me out on bounties. So far I have gone out to the plains a few times to mine but I haven't bothered with a single bounty (unless you count the two-three Eidolon bounties which are more like sortie groups IMO) for the unvaulting.....  

Actually I take that back I think I did run at least one bounty to test to see if Titania is still being targeted and hard countered by the Anti Archwing weapons when in Razorwing and she is. So hopefully that gets fixed before Venus because Titania is my favorite frame and the thought of getting oneshot left and right on Venus pretty much kills Venus for me :/ 

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

Also, I think it'd be cool if they added NPC storylines that were updated periodically. Give us a continuation of various plotlines centered around the civilization every patch or two. It'd make it feel a lot more alive and not just a HUB we check shops in and stand around aimlessly between designated activities.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

my biggest issue with the bounties is the lack of endless and the inevitable distance to the doors. The missions themselves are no more boring & repetitive or engaging as any starchart mission we've done thousands of times.  

Starchart missions I have a choice:

• Endless - meaning I don't have to suffer loading screen after loading screen to continue to try for the rewards
• Finite - where in the vast majority of them end near the doors to extraction

In both cases, the loading time both into and out of the missions is faster than with the gates of hell  , cetus.  

If we had defend the area for a bit - reward - scale - continue to defend or something - it might not be as bad (although some of the areas for defense where there is cave with some enemy you can't find because he's too chicken to come out are frustrating, and the constant and excessive camera shake from the tusk ogmas & mortar turrets is almost as bad as the artificial shake at mission start on lua)