Healing Lures With Healers is Easy, but just not very fun...

[BL4CKN0ISE]

So why force a meta that requires healers? DE, why are you so rigid with this? You gave us PoE which came with all this focus(no pun intended) on operators, but you don't allow us to use our operators in a way that works cohesively with the squad. We can't buff the operators with Warframe abilities and we can't heal lures with "Protective Dash". Healers can't even heal Operators. 

I just don't understand why Operators feel so disconnected from other mechanics in the game. I understand you want us to upgrade our Operators and give them more health and the ability to heal themselves, and you probably just want to force us to use healers, but WHY? It doesn't make the game more fun or challenging and if just feels wrong. EVERYBODY who unlocked "Protective Dash" expected it to work on Lures, but nope.

One of the main things I love about Warframe is the creativity and flexibility it gives players. We can do what we want and look how we want. I just want more of that in other aspects of the game and specifically with capturing Eidolons. I hate being forced into a specific playstyle and it's unnecessary and doesn't make sense based on many features in the game. Operators can heal allies. When we hack lures they become our allies. Trinity can heal the squad. Our operators are part of the squad when they are out fighting alongside squadmates, but Trinity can't heal them. Same thing for Frames with the ability to buff allies.

Me and my friends were loving capturing Eidolons, but now it's just kinda boring. We play the same roles and it shouldn't be like that. You already created the mechanics that should allow us to try other stuff out, but you're blocking us for some reason. I just want to know why. It just seems arbitrary. Please change you're thinking on this. Thanks, DE.

[tCartmant]

52 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Me and my friends were loving capturing Eidolons, but now it's just kinda boring. We play the same roles and it shouldn't be like that. You already created the mechanics that should allow us to try other stuff out, but you're blocking us for some reason. I just want to know why. It just seems arbitrary. Please change you're thinking on this. Thanks, DE.

This really affects non-squad, aka matchmaking teams a lot. If a trinity doesnt come into the squad, you will see people quit out and find another. Its hard to blame them too since I was reminded last night that playing without one can be a real pain.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

2 minutes ago, tCartmant said:

This really affects non-squad, aka matchmaking teams a lot. If a trinity doesnt come into the squad, you will see people quit out and find another. Its hard to blame them too since I was reminded last night that playing without one can be a real pain.

Yeah, seriously. I didn't even mention how much it affects matchmaking and solo play. 

[Thexceedel]

bruh forced meta what my dude there is healers in the game for a reason and just not giving them a role is weird. Healing lures not fun? when you only need to press a button jump right in the action count the seconds till blessing runs out and cast again. Literally takes no time from you.

[KochDerFrettchen]

But can we talk about forced DPS mechanics?  Give me a full-support Octavia mode that's just guitar hero :^)

(This actually did drive me nuts in GW2 though, everyone in that game is a DPSTankSupport)

[PatternistSlave]

I like playing support.  =/

[tCartmant]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

I like playing support.  =/

I dont mind support characters, it makes it tough when its forced on you like everyone must have a sniper or must have this or that added on to it.

[PatternistSlave]

4 minutes ago, tCartmant said:

I dont mind support characters, it makes it tough when its forced on you like everyone must have a sniper or must have this or that added on to it.

I don't think a meta is avoidable regardless and making fights less diverse I don't see helping the situation.

[Insizer]

I don't know the last time I had a healer in my squad during eidolon cap missions.

[tCartmant]

8 minutes ago, Insizer said:

I don't know the last time I had a healer in my squad during eidolon cap missions.

No one here is saying its not possible but it when you have all the characters in place, its a very noticeable difference in efficiency.  Considering what Rando's you get paired with, it can go bad quickly.

[Eirshy]

Removing the current "meta" just changes the meta, it doesn't get rid of the concept.

You must be new to MMOs.

Also on the no-trin woes of automatic matching... this is why I wouldn't touch auto-match on anything *but* Trin (or Oberon). Of course I might actually start regularly doing one cycle of board nights just to "train up" more of the community. Seeing as the only thing I'm missing for optimal solo clear speed is unairu for wisps and a bad meth pizza addiction.... the karma might help with my drop rates lol

Edited March 21, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[BL4CKN0ISE]

 

On 3/21/2018 at 10:19 AM, Thexceedel said:

bruh forced meta what my dude there is healers in the game for a reason and just not giving them a role is weird. Healing lures not fun? when you only need to press a button jump right in the action count the seconds till blessing runs out and cast again. Literally takes no time from you.

I'm not bashing healers or the reason for their existence in the game. Read my entire title. "Healing Lures With Healers is Easy, but just not very fun... ". I know "you only need to press a button" and that's why I say it's easy. That being said, "easy" isn't really "fun" for me. I love playing Trinity and I'm currently building Oberon Prime. I like playing Trinity because I love healing squadmates, giving them energy, and being tanky. That isn't my role during Eidolon hunts tho. I just get Lures and heal them. Anyways, Warframe is unique because it has other ways to heal allies. That's all I'm talking about. I just don't like when DE blocks those other ways. I don't understand the difference. Trinity just presses one button. That's not the right way to force a healer into the meta. It's boring because if forces you to use a weak example of how healers can be played in Warframe. Oberon seems to be better in that way because at least he can offer more during hunts, but his role is just not necessary when you consider the current meta.

 

22 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Removing the current "meta" just changes the meta, it doesn't get rid of the concept.

You must be new to MMOs.

Also on the no-trin woes of automatic matching... this is why I wouldn't touch auto-match on anything *but* Trin (or Oberon). Of course I might actually start regularly doing one cycle of board nights just to "train up" more of the community. Seeing as the only thing I'm missing for optimal solo clear speed is unairu for wisps and a bad meth pizza addiction.... the karma might help with my drop rates lol

Absolutely not true on both. EVERYBODY has Operators and the ability to craft health pizzas. If the healing meta became Protective Dash and Health Pizzas, that means the Squad Meta becomes "All 4 can essentially play who they want". That is a very different thing. Right now you need a Trinity or Oberon to do a proper capture. I did a solo Teralyst and Hydrolyst capture with Harrow using Penance to heal lures, but it was hard to keep up the healing for the Gantulyst. I think it's possible, but my point is still the same.

Anyways, there are other ways to heal allies in Warframe. I just want those other healing options to work when it makes sense. If you're arguing that it doesn't make sense to heal allies with stuff that normally heals allies, fine. To each their own. I just think stuff like that should work. It's just healing. Healers offer more than that, so if DE wants to force us to use healers, I think they should be better used when more of their abilities are viable. Pressing 4 is just kinda weak in my opinion and no different than using other healing options. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[Eirshy]

15 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Absolutely not true on both. EVERYBODY has Operators and the ability to craft health pizzas. If the healing meta became Protective Dash and Health Pizzas, that means the Squad Meta becomes "All 4 can essentially play who they want". That is a very different thing. Right now you need a Trinity or Oberon to do a proper capture. I did a solo Teralyst and Hydrolyst capture with Harrow using Penance to heal lures, but it was hard to keep up the healing for the Gantulyst. I think it's possible, but my point is still the same.

Anyways, there are other ways to heal allies in Warframe. I just want those other healing options to work when it makes sense. If you're arguing that it doesn't make sense to heal allies with stuff that normally heals allies, fine. To each their own. I just think stuff like that should work. It's just healing. Healers offer more than that, so if DE wants to force us to use healers, I think they should be better used when more of their abilities are viable. Pressing 4 is just kinda weak in my opinion and no different than using other healing options. 

I'm down for Protective Dash (and other things like Mirage's Total Eclipse) working on them. I'll admit I skimmed a little hard and didn't catch what your specific suggestions were, so my bad there. Making the non-consumable-frame tools all function on lures as expected is a very good idea.

 

Pizzas, however.... I'm leaning towards no, as the resource requirement for them would be absurdly high (especially in a pure automatch party) and that bill would be footed only by likely only one person. While it could be useful for solo attempts, it's not exactly what I would call "healthy" gameplay.

Doubly because most of the vets that wouldn't care if they had to foot the bill do premade groups that wouldn't need to, either.

Edited March 22, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[(PSN)Raygun_X_]

On 3/21/2018 at 11:06 AM, BL4CKN0ISE said:

So why force a meta that requires healers? DE, why are you so rigid with this? You gave us PoE which came with all this focus(no pun intended) on operators, but you don't allow us to use our operators in a way that works cohesively with the squad. We can't buff the operators with Warframe abilities and we can't heal lures with "Protective Dash". Healers can't even heal Operators. 

I just don't understand why Operators feel so disconnected from other mechanics in the game. I understand you want us to upgrade our Operators and give them more health and the ability to heal themselves, and you probably just want to force us to use healers, but WHY? It doesn't make the game more fun or challenging and if just feels wrong. EVERYBODY who unlocked "Protective Dash" expected it to work on Lures, but nope.

One of the main things I love about Warframe is the creativity and flexibility it gives players. We can do what we want and look how we want. I just want more of that in other aspects of the game and specifically with capturing Eidolons. I hate being forced into a specific playstyle and it's unnecessary and doesn't make sense based on many features in the game. Operators can heal allies. When we hack lures they become our allies. Trinity can heal the squad. Our operators are part of the squad when they are out fighting alongside squadmates, but Trinity can't heal them. Same thing for Frames with the ability to buff allies.

Me and my friends were loving capturing Eidolons, but now it's just kinda boring. We play the same roles and it shouldn't be like that. You already created the mechanics that should allow us to try other stuff out, but you're blocking us for some reason. I just want to know why. It just seems arbitrary. Please change you're thinking on this. Thanks, DE.

I don't see your point....  What's the difference?

Rhino buffs everyone's damage 

Chromatic buffs everyone's damage

Harrow protects everyone then buffs everyone's damage

Trinity reduces damage everyone takes and heals everything. 

 

They all do thier thing with 1 button press so what's the difference? 

Everyone's damage is buffed..  So what's the difference?

To sum it up... Press your 1 button and shoot.

Edited March 22, 2018 by (PS4)Raygun_X_

[RistN]

On 21.3.2018. at 5:06 PM, BL4CKN0ISE said:

So why force a meta that requires healers?

Because one healer is must have in hunt.If we did not need them then people would use another buffer frame so you would have 3 buffers in one party that would buff weapon dmg to crazy amounts making 100% one shots.

So because of balance I think.

 

[(PSN)El_Senior_Fats]

I dont agree witth you when you say  player as, what you call a healer, is boring. 

I play with both Oberon or Trinity, using Oberon more often since it can cancel the magnetic proc of the eidolons which is very handy. 

Now said this, no matter if I play with Oberon, Trinity, Volt, Chroma, Rhino etc I enjoy it the same, I prefer running Oberon/Trinity because when I go with Volt and the group doesnt have a healer it is likely we will lose lures during the fight, this is also the lure person fault, since they seem to stand right under the fire on void mode while their lures are taking damage. 

I think it is important to have a healer in your group, but not essential, same as having a chroma or rhino, or harrow, or Volt... etc. I have seen incompatibilities between Chroma and Harrow as well since they dont work well together so there you have another problem. Eidolons can be easily killed without any offensive frames (ie Chroma), even when I am playing as support I almost always get the most damage, and still have plenty vombalist kills as well. If you remove the "healers" then people will be asking for Chromas or Rhinos or Volts, which is basically the same thing. 

I mean eidolons are already easy as they are so why is this a problem? 

[Toran]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)El_Senior_Fats:

I dont agree witth you when you say  player as, what you call a healer, is boring. 

I play with both Oberon or Trinity, using Oberon more often since it can cancel the magnetic proc of the eidolons which is very handy. 

Now said this, no matter if I play with Oberon, Trinity, Volt, Chroma, Rhino etc I enjoy it the same, I prefer running Oberon/Trinity because when I go with Volt and the group doesnt have a healer it is likely we will lose lures during the fight, this is also the lure person fault, since they seem to stand right under the fire on void mode while their lures are taking damage. 

I think it is important to have a healer in your group, but not essential, same as having a chroma or rhino, or harrow, or Volt... etc. I have seen incompatibilities between Chroma and Harrow as well since they dont work well together so there you have another problem. Eidolons can be easily killed without any offensive frames (ie Chroma), even when I am playing as support I almost always get the most damage, and still have plenty vombalist kills as well. If you remove the "healers" then people will be asking for Chromas or Rhinos or Volts, which is basically the same thing. 

I mean eidolons are already easy as they are so why is this a problem? 

Trinity for sure hasn't a boring job in the hunt. Trinity is the most active of the bunch (unless someone has to compensate for an inexperienced team mate). My problem with Trinity in Eidolon is that it feels like a chore most don't want to do.

In almost every run, everybody expects the Trinity to get the 7 other lures and keep them alive, while the rest is relaxing near the Teralyst and waiting for the first charge.

To me playing Trinity in Triple Eidolon feels like Nekros before the desecrate-patch. On the other hand, lure management, and therefore a good Trinity, is absolutely essential for a good run. I can see why you like to make sure that part is done properly. Then again, you having the most damage as Trinity indicates that you probably have got Void Strike/Uinaru Wisp, a good amp and a riven modded weapon and could do more for the team performance as one of the other roles. Unless you're replaced by a bad Trinity, that is.

The OP has some good points. That Trinity can't heal the Operators feels just plain stupid and Eidolon Runs are terribly one-sided, a thing I don't expect from a game feature DE is proclaiming as its major new addition. We have thirty warframes in our arsenal and accept like 6 or 7 for the runs. If you're hosting and you're not requesting a Chroma, people get worried already.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Toran

[HardcoreSalmon]

30+ frames in the game, 300 or so weapons

Things worth using in Eidolon hunts:

Frames: Volt, trinity, oberon, harrow, chroma, rhino, octavia

Weapons: snipers/opticor

So much for variety and customization

[Raspberry]

1 hour ago, HardcoreSalmon said:

30+ frames in the game, 300 or so weapons

Things worth using in Eidolon hunts:

Frames: Volt, trinity, oberon, harrow, chroma, rhino, octavia

Weapons: snipers/opticor

So much for variety and customization

I would add Ivara into the list of frames, then also add a side note of mandatory arcanes such as Magus Vigor, Magus Elevate, Virtuos Strike/Fury, 2x Arcane Nullifier (100% magnetic proc resist). And of course, mandatory Shraksun scaffold and Lohrin brace on our amps.

[(PSN)El_Senior_Fats]

3 hours ago, Raspberri said:

I would add Ivara into the list of frames, then also add a side note of mandatory arcanes such as Magus Vigor, Magus Elevate, Virtuos Strike/Fury, 2x Arcane Nullifier (100% magnetic proc resist). And of course, mandatory Shraksun scaffold and Lohrin brace on our amps.

Far from mandatory, I have all amps and still use grammu, klebrick with M strike  and Vigor and it is more than enough, in fact, none of the arcanes are "mandatory", You can do this eidolons with anything t1 upwards and no arcanes. They are pretty easy IMO.

[TheChaotic1]

If you wanna mix it up, limbs does a good job protecting them

[Educated_Beast]

Agree with OP.  Verazin not only makes the worst selection of mods, they also have the worse school (unarui was worst but now they are top tier). 

Verazin desperately needs a use.  Sure you can revive fast but who cares when you can pop out as operator and heal without worry.  

What else can they do that a mod or health pizza can't do better?  Larger range for XP, who cares when Naramon gives you 45% more and you can pick maps where range don't matter.  

Verazin either needs a whole rework, or some tweaks like OP suggesting.  

[Raspberry]

10 hours ago, (PS4)El_Senior_Fats said:

Far from mandatory, I have all amps and still use grammu, klebrick with M strike  and Vigor and it is more than enough, in fact, none of the arcanes are "mandatory", You can do this eidolons with anything t1 upwards and no arcanes. They are pretty easy IMO.

They ARE mandatory if you want to do a 4x3 or 5x3 cap.

[(PSN)El_Senior_Fats]

3 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

They ARE mandatory if you want to do a 4x3 or 5x3 cap.

Who said anything about doing 4 or 5 caps in a night? Dont change the subject here 

[Raspberry]

Just now, (PS4)El_Senior_Fats said:

Who said anything about doing 4 or 5 caps in a night? Dont change the subject here 

You... do have a point. For a more casual hunt that still wants to succeed, then you're mostly on point.