Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[WhiteCr0w]

16 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

I don't think you know what a straw man is, his argument and lines of thought are logical and make sense, I don't see much if any flaws in his line of thinking. Yours on the other hand leaves little to be desired.

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"."

I'm not sure you do. That's exactly what a strawman is, designed to fool people like you. You bring up another unrelated issue that is easy to argue. Of course Warframe has an endgame issue, no one disputes that. I made no mention of endgame, which is the point he's attempting to argue. We're in a thread about Endless Kuva scaling.

Edit: Got nothing huh? Well alright then.

Edited March 31, 2018 by WhiteCr0w

[Sonicbullitt]

22 minutes ago, WhiteCr0w said:

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"."

I'm not sure you do. I made no mention of endgame, which is the point he's attempting to argue. We're in a thread about Endless Kuva scaling.

Sure, you weren't arguing for it nor did you bring it up, but that is exactly the problem. Even if you didn't bring it up, doesn't mean that kuva and rivens do not have intrinsic ties to the "endgame" of warframe, they are both late game systems and rewards, locked off from a majority of the playerbase. So it only makes sense that the conversation about it will come up. That does not mean he was specifically trying to make the topic about endgame, just that this mode could be part of it, its but a part of his argument, not the entire basis of it. 

Again the kuva fortress tileset is not meant for beginners and casuals anyway, thus it should not cater to them.

While the endless modes are not necessarily endgame missions, doesn't mean they should not have the option to be to other players. With correct scaling they can be what endurance players are looking for, especially for the Kuva ones. While the kuva siphons exist for those that want quick kuva and get out, the endless mode  is for players on the other side of the spectrum.

In the end regardless if you are in favour of it or not Kuva missions are not intended for newer players. These players have gotten used to taking advantage of higher leveled and experienced players by leeching off of them in the siphon missions. Whereas when it comes to a mode like endless kuva survivals , it is much harder for them to do so, which is fine. These modes specifically should not be designed around those players and is intended for those more experienced. As for the general star chart I think those would need scaling too, albeit balanced quite differently from the Kuva fortress tileset, as more of the playerbase has access to them.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Sonicbullitt
spelling errors

[(PSN)lhbuch]

If DE made it so kuva could scale, wouldnt people who want it be happy and stay longer and people who dont want it just leave earlier?

I mean if you dont want it to scale just let it scale and leave when you feel like it. Dont understand why anybody would be sad because other people are getting kuva staying much longer

[Sonicbullitt]

Just now, (PS4)lhbuch said:

If DE made it so kuva could scale, wouldnt people who want it be happy and stay longer and people who dont want it just leave earlier?

I mean if you dont want it to scale just let it scale and leave when you feel like it. Dont understand why anybody would be sad because other people are getting kuva staying much longer

That's what boggles my mind, its nothing but a positive, a net gain, the people that argue against it have nothing but nonsense counter points it seems. 

[(PSN)lhbuch]

59 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

That's what boggles my mind, its nothing but a positive, a net gain, the people that argue against it have nothing but nonsense counter points it seems. 

Exactly. Dont like it, dont stay but let other people who want it have their fun

[Sonicbullitt]

1 minute ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Exactly. Dont like it, dont stay but let other people who want it have their fun

yep,that's what the siphons are for 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[IceColdHawk]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

If DE made it so kuva could scale, wouldnt people who want it be happy and stay longer and people who dont want it just leave earlier?

I mean if you dont want it to scale just let it scale and leave when you feel like it. Dont understand why anybody would be sad because other people are getting kuva staying much longer

Because being anti for the sake of feeling like a hipster does satisfy a few people it seems. Finding actual and fruitful "discussions" is like finding a diamond at the beach.

[This_Machine]

You know what would make everyone happy? If DE sold a 3x resource booster.

People that don't want scaling kuva would be happy.

People that want a challenge can still stay longer.

People that just want kuva will get a lot of it, so time would be irrelevant.

Everyone wins

PS. And DE gets paid, now everyone's winning.

Edited March 31, 2018 by This_Machine
ps

[Sonicbullitt]

1 minute ago, This_Machine said:

You know what would make everyone happy? If DE sold a 3x resource booster.

People that don't want scaling kuva would be happy.

People that want a challenge can still stay longer.

People that just want kuva will get a lot of it, so time would be irrelevant.

Everyone wins 

Except that doesn't solve the problem at all, that just exacerbates the situation making the normal siphons far too lucrative in comparison. if you didn't have any reason to run the survival before, you would have even less reason to do so at that point.

[This_Machine]

11 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

Except that doesn't solve the problem at all, that just exacerbates the situation making the normal siphons far too lucrative in comparison. if you didn't have any reason to run the survival before, you would have even less reason to do so at that point.

You mean besides the survival being more fun, and getting much more affinity? If nothing changes Ill probably never do kuva siphons again, but my mods are at that point though. If the survival version is too hard then stick to the siphons till you get better.

[Sonicbullitt]

On 3/31/2018 at 11:11 PM, This_Machine said:

You mean besides the survival being more fun, and getting much more affinity? If nothing changes Ill probably never do kuva siphons again, but my mods are at that point though. If the survival version is too hard then stick to the siphons till you get better.

That is not what I said, nor claimed,  You quite literally used a strawman to misrepresent my argument and in one of the most cliche ways to do so too. You have added no merit to this conversation and are derailing the topic. You have what played the game for 2 years, while I have been along the ride for 5. Looking through your recent amount of forum posts, they seem to be nothing but shallow remarks and japes too. Stay quiet when the adults are speaking, if you have nothing of worth to add to the conversation, otherwise you come of as nothing but a petulant child trying to get a rise out of someone.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[zWhiteKz]

11 hours ago, Sonicbullitt said:

That is not what I said, nor claimed,  You quite literally used a strawman to misrepresent my argument and in one of the most cliche ways to do so too. You have added no merit to this conversation and are derailing the topic. You have what played the game for 2 years, while I have been along the ride for 5. Looking through your recent amount of forum posts, they seem to be nothing but shallow remarks and japes too. Stay quiet when the adults are speaking, if you have nothing of worth to add to the conversation, otherwise you come of a nothing but a petulant child trying to get a rise out of someone.

I agree that we should get more when we head to a difficult challenge if the game present it but right now kuva endless is not a sollution for scaling reward .... like [DE]Sheldon said this is a mod sit between siphon and flood so no point argue for a scaling that end up surpass flood but a increase from 200>250 will make this mode sit more well between siphon/flood. And i hope DE gonna make a mode where we can challenge outself with riven/tactic/cheezyness and have fun not focus on staying for 1,2,3+ hours just to fight with the number game of scaling which is terrible cause DE dont fix their back-end off basic mechanic since the game launch 5 years ago. So please drop the scaling reward and try make new sugguestions for either make the mode better suit "farm" aspect of WF or try to make a new mode or some methods fixing the scaling issue rather than asking for scaling reward and ignore the core issue the game have right now aka scaling.

[White_Matter]

On 30.03.2018 at 8:11 AM, Krhymez said:

"Endless" kuva missions are not 200/min.  The filter takes 1 min to finish, yes. But you need to include the time it takes for them to spawn and the time to travel to them.

 

We do need/want scaling Kuva but with a limit.  Something similar to how fissures work, would be nice. 25% booster every  5-10 minutes, up to 100% (or 200%).

Without scaling, people will just continue to do Floods, over and over. (Yes there is a way). It is a nice mode but i do not see people that are actually farming large amounts of kuva... to do it. 

What he said.

MUST scale. It isn't a matter of opinion at this point. It is bad design if it doesn't scale. I do know people like the challenge, but I'd rather have an increasing reward for increasing difficulty. It only makes sense.

[CelestialStorm]

@WhiteCr0w   consider changing your name to WhiteKn1ght. The 200p is on me

[(PSN)H_Obsidian]

Waiting on console 😔 

Edited April 1, 2018 by (PS4)LH_LielHarush

[dudefaceguy]

6 hours ago, White_Matter said:

It isn't a matter of opinion at this point.

I mean, it's obviously a matter of opinion. We are talking about the best way to have fun in a video game; I don't know how you can get closer to the exact definition of "opinion." For those who can't think of any reasons why scaling is not implemented, here are a few that I already posted in another thread:

1. Increased rewards cause inflation. Warframe has an economy, and kuva rewards affect the supply of rolled rives with good stats, and also incentives to buy boosters. This in turn affects the price of rolled rivens, and DE's income. If rewards scale infinitely, kuva will suffer inflation, possibly to the point that it will be worthless, because people will have more than they could ever need. This means that after a few long missions, you will get no rewards at all because you will already have all the kuva you need. It would be like scaling alloy plate rewards. (DE obviously already wants to decrease prices for rolled rivens, or they wouldn't have implemented kuva survival in the first place, but it's a matter of degree.)

2. To prevent ridiculous inflation, rewards would have to be capped. They would also have to start below the optimal farming level so that the average reward would reach DE's target level. For example, they would start at 100 and scale up to 300 over a few hours. This is much worse for people who don't want to stay in very long missions. Or, they would just scale a trivial amount, like 10%, quickly and then hit the cap. Bascially, DE has a number in mind for the amount of kuva they want us to farm; any increase through scaling rewards would have to be met with a reduction elsewhere in order to avoid messing up the economy.

3. A scaling reward feels like a punishment for extracting. It also feels like you are wasting your time in the early stages of the mission. The higher the scaling, the worse this problem gets.

To fix inflation, and to give people who don't like very long missions a reasonable reward, and to avoid feelings of wasted time while waiting for rewards to scale up, you can just start the rewards at a reasonable level and have them stay reasonable forever. Then everyone gets a reasonable reward, no matter how long they stay.

I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't have scaling rewards; I'm just saying that there are good reasons to not implement them. Whether or not these reasons are more persuasive than the reasons to implement scaling rewards is partly an issue of fact (e.g. how much they affect the plat economy), and partly an issue of opinion (e.g. how much individuals dislike waiting for rewards to scale up to reasonable levels).

Edited April 1, 2018 by dudefaceguy

[.Yes]

2 hours ago, dudefaceguy said:

I mean, it's obviously a matter of opinion. We are talking about the best way to have fun in a video game; I don't know how you can get closer to the exact definition of "opinion." For those who can't think of any reasons why scaling is not implemented, here are a few that I already posted in another thread:

1. Increased rewards cause inflation. Warframe has an economy, and kuva rewards affect the supply of rolled rives with good stats, and also incentives to buy boosters. This in turn affects the price of rolled rivens, and DE's income. If rewards scale infinitely, kuva will suffer inflation, possibly to the point that it will be worthless, because people will have more than they could ever need. This means that after a few long missions, you will get no rewards at all because you will already have all the kuva you need. It would be like scaling alloy plate rewards. (DE obviously already wants to decrease prices for rolled rivens, or they wouldn't have implemented kuva survival in the first place, but it's a matter of degree.)

2. To prevent ridiculous inflation, rewards would have to be capped. They would also have to start below the optimal farming level so that the average reward would reach DE's target level. For example, they would start at 100 and scale up to 300 over a few hours. This is much worse for people who don't want to stay in very long missions. Or, they would just scale a trivial amount, like 10%, quickly and then hit the cap. Bascially, DE has a number in mind for the amount of kuva they want us to farm; any increase through scaling rewards would have to be met with a reduction elsewhere in order to avoid messing up the economy.

3. A scaling reward feels like a punishment for extracting. It also feels like you are wasting your time in the early stages of the mission. The higher the scaling, the worse this problem gets.

To fix inflation, and to give people who don't like very long missions a reasonable reward, and to avoid feelings of wasted time while waiting for rewards to scale up, you can just start the rewards at a reasonable level and have them stay reasonable forever. Then everyone gets a reasonable reward, no matter how long they stay.

I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't have scaling rewards; I'm just saying that there are good reasons to not implement them. Whether or not these reasons are more persuasive than the reasons to implement scaling rewards is partly an issue of fact (e.g. how much they affect the plat economy), and partly an issue of opinion (e.g. how much individuals dislike waiting for rewards to scale up to reasonable levels).

alright stop right there buddy.

it isn't a matter of opinion, it truly is bad design, literally no part of this whole design makes any sense. If I were to tell you that you'd get the same amount of kuva from a siphon at level 30 as you would with a flood at level 100, would you even do floods? If both methods of obtaining kuva nets you the same amount (for example 1k) but 1 method is tougher, then it means 1 of 2 things. 

1. Either the kuva siphon is producing too much

2. The kuva flood is producing too little

Why? Because in every game, in the most basic of designs, harder content produces more rewards. You get more experience from higher levels, or more gold, or better stuff. No one would design a game where a level 150 enemy produces the same amount of rewards (in this case, kuva) as a level 15 enemy. 

[Oreades]

 

1 hour ago, --Q--Phanini said:

No one would design a game where a level 150 enemy produces the same amount of rewards (in this case, kuva) as a level 15 enemy. 

And yet the Argon Crystal I get off a lvl 15 Void zombie is the same as the Argon Crystal I get off the lvl 150 Void Zombie and no one has had a problem with that until now it seems.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Oreades

[(PSN)schachi-chaos]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb --Q--Phanini:

harder content produces more rewards

Why should the Kuva scale because you choose to stay longer in a mission? If you don't see a point in staying longer because the rewards are not scaling and it doesn't feel satisfying enough to you then leave the mission. But you still stay in the mission for the sake of having a challenge. So this is your own choice that you make. The game doesn't need an incentive to get you to stay longer in a mission so, no I don't think Kuva should scale in the end

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)schachi-chaos said:

Why should the Kuva scale because you choose to stay longer in a mission? If you don't see a point in staying longer because the rewards are not scaling and it doesn't feel satisfying enough to you then leave the mission. But you still stay in the mission for the sake of having a challenge. So this is your own choice that you make. The game doesn't need an incentive to get you to stay longer in a mission so, no I don't think Kuva should scale in the end

What sort of nonsense logic is that?

'You're going to do it anyway so no'

It's already been explained numerous times in this thread, including the post you quoted, harder enemies should give a higher reward. Where did they mention incentive? They didn't.

You made a strawman argument out of nonsense logic, that takes some doing.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)schachi-chaos said:

If you don't see a point in staying longer because the rewards are not scaling and it doesn't feel satisfying enough to you then leave the mission.

And that's exactly what people are going to do, which is shame really. The fact that people will willingly leave a mission because it becomes less rewarding to stay (also explained numerous times in this thread) is a sad fact...

Edited April 1, 2018 by DeMonkey

[.Yes]

29 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Why not just ditch the Kuva 

And yet the Argon Crystal I get off a lvl 15 Void zombie is the same as the Argon Crystal I get off the lvl 150 Void Zombie and no one has had a problem with that until now it seems.

this is dropped per enemy, not per higher level game mode

[WhiteCr0w]

People are bringing in 10k in 20 minutes, sometimes 7-8k in 8-10 minutes. If that isn't good enough for you, then you may consider ignoring rivens and kuva all together. Your request is ridiculous and DE know it. Why don't you?

"People want to disagree to be hipster hurr hurr". No, some people here actually understand the concept of balance, and reward. You're greedy children who want more, when you're already given plenty.

[Oreades]

15 minutes ago, --Q--Phanini said:

this is dropped per enemy, not per higher level game mode

Higher level game mode? Endless Kuva is essentially just Kuva Excavation and equivelant Excavations only drop like 100 Cryotic per excavator and don't scale. So at 200 Kuva per pseudo-excavator it's already in a better place.

Getting back to the ditch the Kuva bit, just because I'm somewhat inclined to expand on that partially complete thought that I'd initially abandoned. In part because there is no reason to outright scrap Kuva Excavation, but also add Kuva as a drop from mobs in the Kuva fortress not unlike Endo.

[CelestialStorm]

46 minutes ago, WhiteCr0w said:

People are bringing in 10k in 20 minutes, sometimes 7-8k in 8-10 minutes. If that isn't good enough for you, then you may consider ignoring rivens and kuva all together. Your request is ridiculous and DE know it. Why don't you?

"People want to disagree to be hipster hurr hurr". No, some people here actually understand the concept of balance, and reward. You're greedy children who want more, when you're already given plenty.

 

8k in 10 minutes? You do realize that that's ridiculous levels of luck with RNG, right? Just because it is possible and happens rarely doesn't mean it should be taken into consideration when talking about how much kuva we're getting on average. Same reason nobody complains about legendary core.

The greedy one here is you. Most of the community wants scaling kuva (for a good reason, mind you) and you're trying to get in the way of that happening when it doesn't affect you negatively. If that's not greedy selfishness then I don't know what is.

[Nirrel]

44 minutes ago, WhiteCr0w said:

People are bringing in 10k in 20 minutes, sometimes 7-8k in 8-10 minutes. If that isn't good enough for you, then you may consider ignoring rivens and kuva all together. Your request is ridiculous and DE know it. Why don't you?

"People want to disagree to be hipster hurr hurr". No, some people here actually understand the concept of balance, and reward. You're greedy children who want more, when you're already given plenty.

What are you even talking about? 10K in 20 minutes or more? In what universe? Oh, booster and extremely lucky smeeta universe.... Breaking news for you and DE : you should not even think in boosters because many ppl cannot afford it and they shouldn't be necessary at all to be able to roll your riven once after 20-30 minutes of gameplay. Smeeta is completely RNG, you cannot count on it and as such you you shouldn't try to balance around it.

Realistically in 20 minutes of gameplay you cannot even roll your riven after your 7th try. It is ridicolous...