Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[S0V3REiGN]

I don’t see why we can’t have one mode that scales. If you all have such issues playing endless then you don’t have to do them, there are other ways of gaining Kuva or build your own squad to do 20.

Edited April 2, 2018 by S0V3REiGN

[PookieNumnums]

Like i have been saying, just let siohons have a chance to spawn with each life support conversion 

[fluffysnowcap]

On 3/31/2018 at 10:50 PM, This_Machine said:

You know what would make everyone happy? If DE sold a 3x resource booster.

People that don't want scaling kuva would be happy.

People that want a challenge can still stay longer.

People that just want kuva will get a lot of it, so time would be irrelevant.

Everyone wins

PS. And DE gets paid, now everyone's winning.

THAT IS PAY TO WIN

[DeMonkey]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The idea that people love survival suddenly can't play past 20 BECAUSE newly added kuva doesn't scale doesn't make sense. 

Do you know why it doesn't make sense? Because it's a flipping strawman.

How many times? Just stop already.

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I've played kuva survival to 30 already, I've played fissures past 20, because I was having fun- and I don't LOVE endurance. I still net 3k+ Kuva, which is the most I can get in one sitting anywhere besides sortie. so the idea that it's useless to stay is simply not true. 

It is useless to stay though? You start to run the risk of losing filters, losing killing potential and subsequently losing life support.

I.e. there's really nothing but downsides to staying. The minor benefits of "less loading screens" and "you enjoy the mission anyway" are blown well out of proportion as if they more than make up for the lack of rewards for the content we're fighting. 

Do I enjoy endurance? Yes. I also enjoy being appropriately rewarded for my time investment and the difficulty I've overcome, if I cannot find a mission that does that for me then I can easily find a game that does... which is exactly what I've been doing for the past few years.

Current favourite at the moment is Hunt:Showdown. Nice long missions up to an hour long, tense atmosphere, high stakes and to me, very rewarding.

It's a shame that Warframe will seemingly never have something like that, because it looks like we're going to be stuck with speed running the shortest missions for the greatest rewards and moaning about any attempts to create an alternative. Case in point, the reduction in Sortie survival duration.

Regardless, all I seem to be seeing from those against scaling Kuva are strawmen, and not even original strawmen, just the same ones repeated over and over. Stop.

[White_Matter]

7 hours ago, dudefaceguy said:

Yes, exactly this. Increased loot for increased difficulty is one of several different factors to consider when forming an opinion.

 

Let me put it this way. Some people think it is ok to have a sexual relationship with a 13 year old, but the majority considers it pedophilia. Call it an opinion if you will, but that doesn't change the fact that it is also common sense.

For example, if you tell an athlete that he or she will never win the olympic gold, then they probably won't train as much. Why put yourself through all that challenge if you won't be properly rewarded ? 

So if you want people to challenge themselves without reward, then you have to make case for it. Not the otherway around.

 

[Hypernaut1]

23 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

Do you know why it doesn't make sense? Because it's a flipping strawman.

How many times? Just stop already.

It is useless to stay though? You start to run the risk of losing filters, losing killing potential and subsequently losing life support.

I.e. there's really nothing but downsides to staying. The minor benefits of "less loading screens" and "you enjoy the mission anyway" are blown well out of proportion as if they more than make up for the lack of rewards for the content we're fighting. 

Do I enjoy endurance? Yes. I also enjoy being appropriately rewarded for my time investment and the difficulty I've overcome, if I cannot find a mission that does that for me then I can easily find a game that does... which is exactly what I've been doing for the past few years.

Current favourite at the moment is Hunt:Showdown. Nice long missions up to an hour long, tense atmosphere, high stakes and to me, very rewarding.

It's a shame that Warframe will seemingly never have something like that, because it looks like we're going to be stuck with speed running the shortest missions for the greatest rewards and moaning about any attempts to create an alternative. Case in point, the reduction in Sortie survival duration.

Regardless, all I seem to be seeing from those against scaling Kuva are strawmen, and not even original strawmen, just the same ones repeated over and over. Stop.

then good luck with that game. i like tactical shooters and so i play Arma 3. what's your point? I dont play warframe for tactical shooter gameplay. You're allowed to play more than one game at a time.

I personally dont want good rewards gated behind 40 minute runs. 20 is fine to me, and thats the way it was designed. My issue is that i would like that 20 to start at a higher intensity with possible increased gains. Everytime ive played Kuva survival past 20, when it was time to go, no one really had issue. there was no saying "oh wait, kuva gain is 500 if we play until 40" I like it that way. Ive also had no issue with groups going to 20. The way it should be. 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

then good luck with that game. i like tactical shooters and so i play Arma 3. what's your point? I dont play warframe for tactical shooter gameplay. You're allowed to play more than one game at a time.

My point? I was clearly making a comparison. Did you read the next paragraph?

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

there was no saying "oh wait, kuva gain is 500 if we play until 40"

Ikr, funny that. It's almost like scaling rewards don't exist or something.

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ive also had no issue with groups going to 20. The way it should be. 

In your opinion. There's no should be shouldn't be here, just opinion. 

It's clear that we're just going to butt heads about this and get nowhere. I can't really see anything more that can be added to this, and you're just repeating yourself like a broken record, so whatever. As long as you stop posting strawmen then I'm good. 

[fluffysnowcap]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

then good luck with that game. i like tactical shooters and so i play Arma 3. what's your point? I dont play warframe for tactical shooter gameplay. You're allowed to play more than one game at a time.

I personally dont want good rewards gated behind 40 minute runs. 20 is fine to me, and thats the way it was designed. My issue is that i would like that 20 to start at a higher intensity with possible increased gains. Everytime ive played Kuva survival past 20, when it was time to go, no one really had issue. there was no saying "oh wait, kuva gain is 500 if we play until 40" I like it that way. Ive also had no issue with groups going to 20. The way it should be. 

So because your knee jerk reaction that scaling would encourage people to play a single mission longer, and will create more pre-made groups: whilst disbanding the meta of one full AABC rotation.

Are you saying that we as members of a community should not ask for SCALING in attempt to reduce the unhealthy meat of one AABC rotation 20 minutes then repeat. Or as a request to fix the quite frankly abysmal rewards of endless kuva with 133.33 Kuva per minute being the absolutely best we can expect from it. No I'm not counting boosters or kuvats as there 1. payed for and 2. kuvats are unreliable RNG.

[IceColdHawk]

11 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

there was no saying "oh wait, kuva gain is 500 if we play until 40" I like it that way.

So what? And kuva gain will be 650 if you stay until 60. Kuva will be 800 if you stay until 80 etc. People leave when they feel like it. They always do. And scaling kuva won't change it other than allowing more people wanting to go for longer than just till 20 and restart due to finally having an INCENTIVE.

Your scenario would imply that people would only want to go to infinity. Which is nonsense.

[Sonicbullitt]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

My point? I was clearly making a comparison. Did you read the next paragraph?

Ikr, funny that. It's almost like scaling rewards don't exist or something.

In your opinion. There's no should be shouldn't be here, just opinion. 

It's clear that we're just going to butt heads about this and get nowhere. I can't really see anything more that can be added to this, and you're just repeating yourself like a broken record, so whatever. As long as you stop posting strawmen then I'm good. 

This is exactly the way I feel about this topic currently, the people that are against scaling, have no foothold to stand on. They use strawman to misrepresent our arguments and blatantly ignore any fact and logic we bring up. Their reason for being against scaling other than selfishness ? Nonexistent, hopefully DE will see the common sense in having harder work and time put in, be rewarded, lest we end up like Destiny, where none of the content is worthwhile for the effort put in.

There already is barely any reason to do star chart missions these days and hardly any worthwhile content for long time players and yet when there is a sign we might get something worthwhile, no mater how tiny of a change it is, there are selfish people that come out the woodwork and want to stop a positive change. This mode with the correct scaling and balance has no negatives whatsoever, yet people still oppose it for nonsensical reasons. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Sonicbullitt said:

 

 

This is exactly the way I feel about this topic currently, the people that are against scaling, have no foothold to stand on. They use strawman to misrepresent our arguments and blatantly ignore any fact and logic we bring up. Their reason for being against scaling other than selfishness ? Nonexistent, hopefully DE will see the common sense in having harder work and time put in, be rewarded, lest we end up like Destiny, where none of the content is worthwhile for the effort put in.

There already is barely any reason to do star chart missions these days and hardly any worthwhile content for long time players and yet when there is a sign we might get something worthwhile, no mater how tiny of a change it is, there are selfish people that come out the woodwork and want to stop a positive change. This mode with the correct scaling and balance has no negatives whatsoever, yet people still oppose it for nonsensical reasons. 

i like how you say no-scaling has no leg to stand on yet DE has clearly gone away from incentivizing playing past 20. Their reward system is clearly designed to restart after 20. you never get double rewards, it doesn't even go CCCC. It starts back at the lowest tier, 2x. So maybe they know things we don't. Maybe scaling rewards isnt as clear a positive design choice as some of you think. 

Its not that even im THAT much against scaling. Ive said multiple times that i believe fissure style scaling is good. i'm against the idea that we need to play for 20 minutes before the content gets challenging and rewarding. Im against people advocating for encouraging that instead of just asking for a more satisfying 20 minutes, that's rewarded appropriately. The times i've stayed past 20-30 on survival was purely because its was only then, when it started getting fun. I leave because, while its fun, ive just been playing ONE mission for 20+ minutes. 20 minutes in not a "quick in/out". The Kuva fortress should be a high level playground IMO. it doesnt need to be lvl 100, but at least some 50+ nodes, with roaming Kuva guards 60+ that yield rewards.

You harp on "harder work needs better rewards!!" yes, i agree....but why are people so insistent on gating that harder work behind a (sometimes) sleep inducing 20 minutes is beyond me. Have fun with your debate. Clearly some of you lack any kind of perspective to understand what im trying saying and would rather yell "strawman!! strawman!!!" like you just learned that word on the internet yesterday. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Its not that even im THAT much against scaling. Ive said multiple times that i believe fissure style scaling is good. i'm against the idea that we need to play for 20 minutes before the content gets challenging and rewarding. Im against people advocating for encouraging that instead of just asking for a more satisfying 20 minutes. The times i've stayed past 20-30 on survival was purely because its was only then when it started getting fun. I leave because, while its fun, ive just been playing ONE mission for 20+ minutes. The Kuva fortress should be a high level playground IMO. it doesnt need to be lvl 100, but at least some 50+ nodes, with roaming Kuva guards 60+ that yield rewards.

Say the mission starts at 20 minutes of difficulty then, you're fighting level 60 enemies or whatever. After 20 minutes of that you're fighting level 80 enemies, after 40 you're well above 100 and still getting the same amount despite the added risk. 

Why on earth would you think this would appease people who want scaling when it's literally the exact same situation just with higher numbers.

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

would rather yell "strawman!! strawman!!!" like you just learned that word on the internet yesterday. 

Stop posting them then. It's really simple, I can't call your argument a strawman if you don't post strawmen arguments.

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

 

Say the mission starts at 20 minutes of difficulty then, you're fighting level 60 enemies or whatever. After 20 minutes of that you're fighting level 80 enemies, after 40 you're well above 100 and still getting the same amount despite the added risk. 

Why on earth would you think this would appease people who want scaling when it's literally the exact same situation just with higher numbers.

Stop posting them then. It's really simple, I can't call your argument a strawman if you don't post strawmen arguments.

Im not trying to come up with a solution for people that want to do 1 hour survivals. 

nah, i'm just waiting for you to start saying "ad hominem" " logical fallacy" and "slippery slope". im sure your familiar with all of these internet rebuttals. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Sonicbullitt]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i like how you say no-scaling has no leg to stand on yet DE has clearly gone away from incentivizing playing past 20. Their reward system is clearly designed to restart after 20. you never get double rewards, it doesn't even go CCCC. It starts back at the lowest tier, 2x. So maybe they know things we don't. Maybe scaling rewards isnt as clear a positive design choice as some of you think. 

Its not that even im THAT much against scaling. Ive said multiple times that i believe fissure style scaling is good. i'm against the idea that we need to play for 20 minutes before the content gets challenging and rewarding. Im against people advocating for encouraging that instead of just asking for a more satisfying 20 minutes, that's rewarded appropriately. The times i've stayed past 20-30 on survival was purely because its was only then, when it started getting fun. I leave because, while its fun, ive just been playing ONE mission for 20+ minutes. 20 minutes in not a "quick in/out". The Kuva fortress should be a high level playground IMO. it doesnt need to be lvl 100, but at least some 50+ nodes, with roaming Kuva guards 60+ that yield rewards.

You harp on "harder work needs better rewards!!" yes, i agree....but why are people so insistent on gating that harder work behind a (sometimes) sleep inducing 20 minutes is beyond me. Have fun with your debate. Clearly some of you lack any kind of perspective to understand what im trying saying and would rather yell "strawman!! strawman!!!" like you just learned that word on the internet yesterday. 

Dare I say you're lazy ? Because from what is looks like that is exactly what you are and what you want from this system. Even if the enemies started at a higher level, the endpoint would be the same it would still be 20 mins in then out. So you either want the mode to start at a harder difficulty , do your 20 minutes and leave while still getting the same crappy rewards we get now or you want the base reward to also be higher to match, essentially making siphons and floods worthless over the survival.

Either way your scenario is a lose lose, again you have no foothold to stand on. Why do you want to limit others , when you can still play the siphons ? Why are you so against this ? How does this harm you or your fun with the game ? it is nothing but selfish reasoning, your idea of survivals and other endless modes may be "sleep inducing," but to others they enjoy this way of playing the game.

Like I have said in previous posts, a well balanced scaling will reward others who want to put in their 20 minutes while still giving incentive to us long time players to keep playing the mode. So even you will benefit from such a change, this is why I say it is nothing but a positive. Siphons for fast kuva and endless for vets that need kuva in a large bulk quantity. Think of it like shopping in bulk, buying a small amount of a certain item will be a good price, however in the long run buying in bulk saves you money.

DE's developing mantra, has always been iterative, they constantly work to improve upon and change a system, it doesn't mean if a mode was already implemented in one way it cannot be changed or improved, they have done this countless times in the past with their reworks and still do. So your arguement here doesn't hold up.

As for the logical fallacies, its true you and others constantly use them either purposefully or ignorantly,  as DeMoneky stated if you do not want us to keep pointing them out, stop using them in your arguments. If you truly do not mean to use them, take a look at your argument and ask yourself is there flaws within in it ? Can I improve my points ? Is this counterintuitive to my objective ? The point of a debate is to try do your best to convince the other party, it is why you try your best not to resort to these fallacies, otherwise your arguments start to fill with cracks and you lose your place to stand on. This is why you try not to resort to such things as ad hominem as it makes your argument look weaker. That said I am not saying you used  adhomiem, it was merely an example

Ironically it is you that seems to lack perspective, I have tried to see you and others side of the argument and have pointed out the flaws within, yet you people refuse to even acknowledge them. I cannot logically see a reason, as to why a well balanced scaling system, would be a negative and bring harm to the game and community. Unfortunately your arguments have not convinced me of your point of view.

A large portiation of us have been asking for this for years now, literally almost every longtime player if not all of them. So what is the harm in addressing those concerns ? When they could bring about positive changes if addressed ?

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Im not trying to come up with a solution for people that want to do 1 hour survivals. 

nah, i'm just waiting for you to start saying "ad hominem" " logical fallacy" and "slippery slope". im sure your familiar with all of these internet rebuttals. 

You see that is where we differ, we are trying to come up with solutions and improvements while you here are trying to keep the status quo. Why are you against possible positive changes to the game ? If the mode has flaws they can always be fixed and improved upon, we have to at least try. How will you succeed if you do not take at least some form of risk ? Give it a chance, before your turn it down.

And no there is no TL:DR, there is no way such a topic and response can be condensed down, without losing some of the meaning and intention behind it.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[Hypernaut1]

18 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

 

 

 

 

 Why are you against possible positive changes to the game ?

purely opinion. Like i said, if scaling endless past 20 minutes was such a genius idea, endless wouldn't loop hard at 20. You lack perspective if you think 20 minutes in one mission is lazy. With that said...im done. As it seems like the best way to get your point across is go on off-topic soliloquies about what kind of argument you think im making.  

all in all its up to DE to decide. If they read the forums, they hear the "scale rewards" vocal side and they've heard the player argument against scaling rewards. It's not one united voice for scaling rewards. We don't ALL want scaling. They can do with that info as they wish. I'll be playing the game either way.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Sonicbullitt]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

purely opinion. Like i said, if scaling endless past 20 minutes was such a genius idea, endless wouldn't loop hard at 20. You lack perspective if you think 20 minutes in one mission is lazy. With that said...im done. As it seems like the best way to get your point across is go on off-topic soliloquies about what kind of argument you think im making.  

all in all its up to DE to decide. If they read the forums, they hear the "scale rewards" vocal side and they've heard the player argument against scaling rewards. It's not one united voice for scaling rewards. We don't ALL want scaling. They can do with that info as they wish. I'll be playing the game either way.

"Off-topic soliloquies" eh ? That is your rebuttal to my argument, this is a deflection you're not addressing the points made, but avoiding them. In other words you are running away, I doubt you even read all of it. You only addressed one of my points , the topic of the way DE Desigined endless modes, which I already addressed in my prior response, you would know if you read the entire post or read it correctly. 

Here is what I said:

"DE's developing mantra, has always been iterative, they constantly work to improve upon and change a system, it doesn't mean if a mode was already implemented in one way it cannot be changed or improved, they have done this countless times in the past with their reworks and still do. So your argument here doesn't hold up."

You have committed yet another logical fallacy with this line of thinking, the appeal to authority. You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

Again I never claimed that all of us want scaling, I said most of us, I also added an elaboration that most if not all of the long time players want it. Those things are not the same as claiming the entire playerbase wants it. In other words I hate to say it, but another Logical fallacy, a strawman.

 

[Voltage]

14 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I personally dont want good rewards gated behind 40 minute runs. 20 is fine to me, and thats the way it was designed. My issue is that i would like that 20 to start at a higher intensity with possible increased gains. Everytime ive played Kuva survival past 20, when it was time to go, no one really had issue. there was no saying "oh wait, kuva gain is 500 if we play until 40" I like it that way. Ive also had no issue with groups going to 20. The way it should be. 

No one ever suggested gating specific rewards behind long runs. If you want to casually farm Kuva in an endless missions with scaling rewards, you are free to do so. There is no reason to have a such a selfish mindset about rewards in spite of the different kinds of players. 

If you queue up for Pubs, the mission length always differs. Likewise, solo extraction fixes your "issue" that doesn't really exist in the first place.

I believe Kuva Endless should scale with rewards to do the following:

1) Give players incentives and diversity with how they want to farm at their pace. This includes super hardcore players like myself, and also more casual players within the Riven/Kuva system.

2) Promoting meaningful content that actually contests veteran gear with Rivens and Arcanes, something we have yet to see.

3) Set precedent for awfully designed game modes such as Excavation, Defection, Infested Salvage, and future content similar to this (DE loves copying other game modes, just look at Kuva survival).

I don't see how scaling Kuva can be a bad thing except for the people who want everyone to be casual and stuck at "easy" and unrewarding content under level 140 like the rest of this game.

Edited April 3, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[Sonicbullitt]

2 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

No one ever suggested gating specific rewards behind log runs. If you want to casually farm Kuva in an endless missions with scaling rewards, you are free to do so. There is no reason to have a such a selfish mindset about rewards in spite of the different kinds of players. 

If you queue up for Pubs, the mission length always differs. Likewise, solo extraction fixes you "issue" that doesn't really exist in the first place.

I believe Kuva Endless should scale with rewards to do the following:

1) Give players incentives and diversity with how they want to farm at their pace. This includes super hardcore players like myself, and also more casual players within the Riven/Kuva system.

2) Promoting meaningful content that actually contests veteran gear with Rivens and Arcanes, something we have yet to see.

3) Set precedent for awfully designed game modes such as Excavation, Defection, Infested Salvage, and future content similar to this (DE loves copying other game modes, just look at Kuva survival).

I don't see how scaling Kuva can be a bad thing except for the people who want to be anti for the sake of it.

Yep exactly all the points I have been making in this discussion, this is why i cannot understand what seems to be a selfish mindset some of these players have.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[.Yes]

Just now, Sonicbullitt said:

Yep exactly all the points I have been making in this discussion, this is why i cannot understand what seems to be a selfish mindset some of these players have.

Totally agree, scaling brings nothing but more kuva, which we all wanted in the first place. I don't understand the problems these people are bringing up, since if you look at it, there's really only 2 "negatives" to an overwhelming amount of positives.

[Sonicbullitt]

1 minute ago, --Q--Phanini said:

Totally agree, scaling brings nothing but more kuva, which we all wanted in the first place. I don't understand the problems these people are bringing up, since if you look at it, there's really only 2 "negatives" to an overwhelming amount of positives.

For sure, the positives far outweigh any slight negatives with it, most of the negatives I have seen brought up are strawmen anyway. Like " oversaturation" or "the system will be too overpowered"

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[Hypernaut1]

32 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

 

 

 

 

 

"Off-topic soliloquies" eh ?.....

 

30 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

That is your rebuttal to my argument, this is a deflection you're not addressing the points made, but avoiding them. In other words you are running away, I doubt you even read all of it. You only addressed one of my points , the topic of the way DE Desigined endless modes, which I already addressed in my prior response, you would know if you read the entire post or read it correctly. 

You have committed yet another logical fallacy with this line of thinking, the appeal to authority. You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

Again I never claimed that all of us want scaling, I said most of us, I also added an elaboration that most if not all of the long time players want it. Those things are not the same as claiming the entire playerbase wants it. In other words I hate to say it, but another Logical fallacy, a strawman.

yes

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Sonicbullitt]

6 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

yes

whatever that means lol, I'll take that as a nod of understanding I guess

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[fluffysnowcap]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

nah, i'm just waiting for you to start saying "ad hominem" " logical fallacy" and "slippery slope". im sure your familiar with all of these internet rebuttals. 

What we see here is a Argument from fallacy or also known as a fallacy fallacy, This line of argument will go no where. What we should do is try to argue from good faith and be open to others.

 

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i like how you say no-scaling has no leg to stand on yet DE has clearly gone away from incentivizing playing past 20. Their reward system is clearly designed to restart after 20. you never get double rewards, it doesn't even go CCCC. It starts back at the lowest tier, 2x. So maybe they know things we don't. Maybe scaling rewards isnt as clear a positive design choice as some of you think. 

The only scaling that has ever been implemented was back in update 19 and was a olive branch to the players that use to do a 4 hour run of a single T(1,2,3,4) Void Key.

The main arguments for scaling is for the secondary and tertiary rewards, the things we need a tone of like Endo, Polymer Bundle and Plastids, or for the kuva itself to scale, hence the near consensus for one of two models.

1. Void fissure style scaling added to all endless missions. Example below.

Spoiler

Reward Intervals

The reward intervals per mission type are as followed:

• Defense: 5 waves
• Interception: 1 round
• Survival: 5 minutes
• Excavation: 200 Cryotic

Bonuses per Interval

• Every reward interval, you get a predetermined booster. These boosters stack the longer you stay and are capped at double.

1. The first interval: 1.25x Affinity.
2. The second interval: 1.25x Credits Booster. (affects credit cashes)
3. The third interval: 1.25x Resources Booster. (effects missions resources IE, Kuva and Cryotic as well as rewards)
4. The fourth interval: 1.25x Resource Drop Rate.
5. The fifth interval: This one will be the largest change replacing the random Exceptional Relic With a planets appropriate rare resource (Affected by Resources Boosters)
6. The sixth interval: 1.5x Affinity (replaces first).
7. The seventh interval: 1.5x Credits (replaces second).
8. The eighth interval: 1.5x Resources (replaces third).
9. The ninth interval: 1.5x Resource Drop Rate (replaces fourth).
10. The tenth interval: a planets appropriate rare resource (Same amount as the first time to prevent runaway scaling, Affected by Resources Boosters)

• Boosters continue to increase every set of intervals and are capped at double (2x). After the nineteenthinterval, all boosters will have reached their cap.

Spoiler

200 Kuva per Tower

Spoiler

Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2200 Kuva 146.6 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 4500 Kuva 180 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 6700 Kuva 167.5 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 5700 Kuva 228 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 12400 Kuva 190.7 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 6300 Kuva 252 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 18700 Kuva 207.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 7600 Kuva 304 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 26300 Kuva 228.6 Kuva per minutes

250 Kuva per Tower

Spoiler

Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2750 Kuva 183.3 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 5500 Kuva 220 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 8250 Kuva 206.2 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 6975 Kuva 279 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 15225 Kuva 234.2 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 7700 Kuva 308 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 22925 Kuva 254.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 9300 Kuva 372 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 32225 Kuva 280.2 Kuva per minutes

300 will surpass back to back Floods so i didn't crunch the numbers.

2. Increasing by a fixed amount per Life support tower, balanced so for the first 20 minutes is is between Kuva siphons and floods; however past 40 minutes it should have the greatest Kuva to time investment you can achieve them game. All scaling capping at 1 hour.

Spoiler

Link to the source.

Current Kuva per minute.

Flood's 243.2, Siphon's 130.3 Kuva Suvival 128

Ideally Kuva Survival should give approximately 190 Kuva per minute for the first 20 minutes, and approximately 250 Kuva per minute for the first 40 minutes.

There are 13.3 Life support towers in 20 minutes That's one every 90 seconds, not including the one that spawns at the very beginning.

so we need scaling that works per tower to create an out come of 190 ish kuva per minute.

OH god i need to work out 14(X+(YxN))÷20=190   wish i remembered how to do Compound interest\integers

Examples. X is the Life support towers and Y is the scaling per tower

20 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

14(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         185.3               |             218.75           |             231               |           253.75              | Kuva per minutes

         3710              |           4375             |            4620            |           5075              | Total Kuva

 

40 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

28(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         234.5               |            281.75            |          320                  |            376.25             | Kuva per minutes

         9380             |            11270           |           12800           |           15050             | Total Kuva

Spoiler

My personal opinion of the two possibilities is that Void fissure style scaling to all endless will be more fitting to the game as a whole. Compared to a fixed percentage or integer increase that will suffer from the possibility of runaway scaling, or initial rewards that are completely underwhelming.

 

I would be at a miss if i didn't include a flat buff to the kuva drops argument.

Spoiler

examples in this tab are done under hypothetically perfect conditions

20 minute Runs Kuva per minute (14 life support towers)      |    optimal 7 minute Runs Kuva per minutes (5 life support towers)

                     Flat 200  =  2800   Kuva 140 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 200  =  1000   Kuva 142.8 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 225  =  3150   Kuva 157.5 Kuva per minute      |            Flat 225  =  1125   Kuva 160.7 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 250  =  3500   Kuva 175 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 250  =  1250   Kuva 178.5 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 275  =  3850   Kuva 192.5 Kuva per minute      |            Flat 275  =  1375   Kuva 196.4 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 300  =  4200   Kuva 210 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 300  =  1500   Kuva 214.2 Kuva per minute

additional notes "A flat increase would be the easiest one to balance but wouldn't encourage longer survival at all, and since i believe endless missions need a second pass and going long should be disproportionately rewarded to a certain extent, as come one the mission type is about going the extra mile"

Edited April 3, 2018 by fluffysnowcap
Further expansion of information and a missed point

[Sonicbullitt]

11 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

What we see here is a Argument from fallacy or also known as a fallacy fallacy, This line of argument will go no where. What we should do is try to argue from good faith and be open to others.

 

The only scaling that has ever been implemented was back in update 19 and was a olive branch to the players that use to do a 4 hour run of a single T(1,2,3,4) Void Key.

The main arguments for scaling is for the secondary and tertiary rewards, the things we need a tone of like Endo, Polymer Bundle and Plastids, or for the kuva itself to scale, hence the near consensus for one of two models.

1. Void fissure style scaling added to all endless missions. Example below.

  Hide contents

Reward Intervals

The reward intervals per mission type are as followed:

• Defense: 5 waves
• Interception: 1 round
• Survival: 5 minutes
• Excavation: 200 Cryotic

Bonuses per Interval

• Every reward interval, you get a predetermined booster. These boosters stack the longer you stay and are capped at double.

1. The first interval: 1.25x Affinity.
2. The second interval: 1.25x Credits Booster. (affects credit cashes)
3. The third interval: 1.25x Resources Booster. (effects missions resources IE, Kuva and Cryotic as well as rewards)
4. The fourth interval: 1.25x Resource Drop Rate.
5. The fifth interval: This one will be the largest change replacing the random Exceptional Relic With a planets appropriate rare resource (Affected by Resources Boosters)
6. The sixth interval: 1.5x Affinity (replaces first).
7. The seventh interval: 1.5x Credits (replaces second).
8. The eighth interval: 1.5x Resources (replaces third).
9. The ninth interval: 1.5x Resource Drop Rate (replaces fourth).
10. The tenth interval: a planets appropriate rare resource (Same amount as the first time to prevent runaway scaling, Affected by Resources Boosters)

• Boosters continue to increase every set of intervals and are capped at double (2x). After the nineteenthinterval, all boosters will have reached their cap.

2. Increasing by a fixed amount per Life support tower, balanced so for the first 20 minutes is is between Kuva siphons and floods; however past 40 minutes it should have the greatest Kuva to time investment you can achieve them game. All scaling capping at 1 hour.

  Hide contents

Link to the source.

Current Kuva per minute.

Flood's 243.2, Siphon's 130.3 Kuva Suvival 128

Ideally Kuva Survival should give approximately 190 Kuva per minute for the first 20 minutes, and approximately 250 Kuva per minute for the first 40 minutes.

There are 13.3 Life support towers in 20 minutes That's one every 90 seconds, not including the one that spawns at the very beginning.

so we need scaling that works per tower to create an out come of 190 ish kuva per minute.

OH god i need to work out 14(X+(YxN))÷20=190   wish i remembered how to do Compound interest\integers

Examples. X is the Life support towers and Y is the scaling per tower

20 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

14(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         185.3               |             218.75           |             231               |           253.75              | Kuva per minutes

         3710              |           4375             |            4620            |           5075              | Total Kuva

 

40 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

28(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         234.5               |            281.75            |          320                  |            376.25             | Kuva per minutes

         9380             |            11270           |           12800           |           15050             | Total Kuva

  Reveal hidden contents

My personal opinion of the two possibilities is that Void fissure style scaling to all endless will be more fitting to the game as a whole. Compared to a fixed percentage or integer increase that will suffer from the possibility of runaway scaling, or initial rewards that are completely underwhelming.

Smart man, I see you also saw the fallacies within that argument, you're actually giving possibilities and solutions. Rather than arguing against the very idea of scaling itself, glad to see we're actually getting somewhere.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[fluffysnowcap]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

purely opinion. Like i said, if scaling endless past 20 minutes was such a genius idea, endless wouldn't loop hard at 20. You lack perspective if you think 20 minutes in one mission is lazy. With that said...im done. As it seems like the best way to get your point across is go on off-topic soliloquies about what kind of argument you think im making.  

all in all its up to DE to decide. If they read the forums, they hear the "scale rewards" vocal side and they've heard the player argument against scaling rewards. It's not one united voice for scaling rewards. We don't ALL want scaling. They can do with that info as they wish. I'll be playing the game either way.

Quote me one person asking for AABC to be changed instead of the secondary and treasury drops, we asked a more rewarding continuation instead of a complete replacement of the previous 20 minutes. as far as I can tell no one has asked for a D drop to be added let a lone E through to G

 

Quote

Smart man, I see you also saw the fallacies within that argument, you're actually giving possibilities and solutions. Rather than arguing against the very idea of scaling itself.

If i was a smart man i would of worked out how to do Compound interest\integers the short way, instead of the long and slow way.

Edited April 3, 2018 by fluffysnowcap
so I don't monopolize the entire thread