NERF EMBER but why not (TRINITY+CASTANAS)

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You see, you say this, right after DE released Onslaught, a mode which is specifically dedicated to standing in the middle of a tile for two minutes at a time spamming Resonating Quake, or playing Octavia and just rolling your face across the keyboard, before you jump through a portal and do it again.

 

Like, bro. Onslaught has been designed from the ground up to so strongly reward the specific gameplay style that DE say they want to avoid that I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the play percentages of Banshee, Octavia, and Equinox have noticeably jumped since its introduction. This is like trying to encourage safe driving by banning seatbelts and making everyone have tequila for breakfast. It is asinine to insist that this is part of some kind of coherent strategy from DE.

 

tl;dr “DE are determined to get rid of afk spam meta! That’s why they made an entire mode for it where it’s awesome wait what no-”

I don't get it either. But you can't deny that getting rid of that meta seems to be high on their priority list, if you look at recent changes and nerfs to frames.

Like I said, it's not so much the AOE or mass-killing alone that seems to be the problem, it's more the AOE without having to work for it. Equinox is a good example of someone where at higher levels you can't just push a button and kill everything. You actually have to do some regular killing to build up your maim damage. Octavia, yeah, I will not be surprised when she gets nerfed.

At least it seems to have encouraged DE to come up with new ways to implement AOE, if the Saryn rework works as intended. According to the devstream, the new Saryn was highly effective in onslaught (we have nothing to base this on, other than the developer who did the rework, who said she was so good in onslaught he was afraid it would be a bit too much), while they still managed to get rid of her "just spam spores on your molt" play style. If we are lucky (it's a big if, though) that's what onslaught will give us: reworks that actually makes it possible to do lots of effective AOE without breaking DE's vision of the game. Currently you can count the frames that fits that criteria on one hand, with fingers to spare.

[BornWithTeeth]

15 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I don't get it either. But you can't deny that getting rid of that meta seems to be high on their priority list, if you look at recent changes and nerfs to frames.

Like I said, it's not so much the AOE or mass-killing alone that seems to be the problem, it's more the AOE without having to work for it. Equinox is a good example of someone where at higher levels you can't just push a button and kill everything. You actually have to do some regular killing to build up your maim damage. Octavia, yeah, I will not be surprised when she gets nerfed.

At least it seems to have encouraged DE to come up with new ways to implement AOE, if the Saryn rework works as intended. According to the devstream, the new Saryn was highly effective in onslaught (we have nothing to base this on, other than the developer who did the rework, who said she was so good in onslaught he was afraid it would be a bit too much), while they still managed to get rid of her "just spam spores on your molt" play style. If we are lucky (it's a big if, though) that's what onslaught will give us: reworks that actually makes it possible to do lots of effective AOE without breaking DE's vision of the game. Currently you can count the frames that fits that criteria on one hand, with fingers to spare.

I actually do not expect them to ever nerf Octavia. She is so obviously a developer darling that I expect DE would nerf the entire rest of the game around her rather than touch one hair on her head. It’s very strange.

 

By contrast, DE just cannot get Saryn quite right, the coming melee change is about to nerf the hell out of Ash’s Bladestorm (right after they got him into a really sweet place balance wise and all) and they pretty much totally ballsed up Ember’s rework. Neither ruined nor buffed, just a waste of effort which didn’t even achieve its stated aim. Wukong is neglected, while Mesa is overpowered as hell, and Nova exists to trivialize every single combat engagement in the game. Khora launched as an underpowered mess.

Come off it chaps. It looks like you have very little idea what you’re doing.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Every time I hear "meta" in a game where you can make almost anything seem op, I want to go punch random people on the street.  Give players a game where they have options and can be unique, and they still flock to whatever is cheesy and/or overused.  

 

This is why we can't have nice things.....

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, CalcualtedMurderMachine said:

+1

I agree with you but would like to add; the reason DE is so insistent on nerfing things is because player retention. If I discover this nuketrin build and I am willing to put in effort, eventually it develops into a meta. Then people clear the starchart using only trin + castana and nothing else. This will not be very profitable for them DEV wise. Hence the nerfs to reduce the meta's that are large AoE clearers

 

 

I see this as a valid point.  And what follows is less to convince you specifically of anything and more to share my general thoughts in the thread.

DE will kill all nuke builds as soon as they become meta because once the players have it, it's more profitable in the long run to kill it and force them to make a new meta for everyone to chase (because nerfing one thing defacto buffs everything else), and that does indeed seem to be the MO.

The only end solution is to keep the rat race going forever OR balance everything to mediocrity like destiny 2.  

Neither of these things feels good though, in that nobody wants to play a generic game for long, and the rat race thing can often feel like punishing people for learning the game and creating awesome things within the systems they have given us, which is also not a good feel and also a huge bummer for something like this that does have such a high bar for entry.

The point I see being made is that it will get nerfed to an extent regardless, which of course it will, but the point I'm making is that it should be viable as a strategy, rather than removing it from the table.  Consider all the other frames that have gotten nerfed not necessarily for being overtly broken in the same way maiming atterax is, but for just being too good at their job.  Wu Kong is basically useless at this point, he's a closet frame.  He gets to survive... woo hoo.  Literally any frame in the hands of any decent player worth their salt is already doing that anyway.  He has no job, no purpose, he's simply a job that players are forced to grind through to 30 now, and what a waste of all those designer's content, which is overtly saddening.

Saryn's thing, if she can't clear at all... why bother?  Same with Trinity, Nova, Octavia and Equinox, and under the right light, Volt and Mesa.  The philosophy I guess I'm saying shouldn't be "this is effective and useful, and therefore by proxy, decided by many players as their defacto "fun", so therefore lets kill it because they shouldn't feel like powerful space ninjas (which feels super wrong to even say).  I'm more in line with maybe bringing the nuke trinity into like with like volt and mesa, where they can wreck stuff hardcore... in the right circumstances.  Like with volt you need armor stripping and a single CP won't do it (but an oberon or team of CP will).  With Mesa, you don't do well with walls.  These kinds of limitations help give those types of frames a niche that is more reliant of thoughtful strategy and team synergy, which I think is about a good sweet spot to allow players to feel powerful without being able to destroy everything instantaneously.  Nidus is a good example.  Super powerful frame, but overall he can nuke a room, but not without enough stacks and other conditions being met and requires a solid investment of time and plat to get to that godly level.

This is why I'm skeptical about Saryn's rework because I suspect she won't be a viable front runner pick for ESO anymore and may just end up being a closet frame, which is another issue of "lets nerf this into oblivion" rather than "lets bring this in line with the current power level of the game." and Trinity is I would say, just a tad above the power level of the game based on the current bar for entry with this build if built in a total min/max sense and would require a very very light touch, because of all the conditions that need to be met first.

To do this build effectively, I don't think players can just stomp around the star chart with this build exclusively because it's just not something most players can get without significant investment.  How many people have rivens worth 10+K for this weapon specifically that are MR locked at 14+?  How many people have carrier and trinity (prime preferred)?  And have all the required augment mods and legit access to that syndicate weapon and the primed mods (and other mods) all maxed out?  Probably one very specific and small group of people... MR 25s sitting on 50k+ plat that already have everything in the game and have not much better to do than test stuff all day and create new builds that are fun/effective.  This isn't something that can "catch on" quite the same way as WoF ember nuking in missions at level 15 with newbie players. 

These players are doing very specific content, like ESO or "endless" kuva that are designed specifically for elite players where newbie players really have no business being (although I have seen actually, legit single digit MR Rhino running around ESO with maiming atterax, which is like... no... just no.  I'm pretty sure it was an alt account, but still.).  ESO has elite right in the name.  Bashing these builds with the nerf stick just because they are good at the content seems like a bad idea, particularly because lets look at how hard the rest of the game is, legitimately, for any scrub to waltz through without any fear.  That covers about 99% of the content, the 1% exception being when the player first starts in their first 100 hours and is learning the game and has very few resources available.  I really don't think that 1% is something to cater to.  Sometimes a million screaming Christians are wrong.  Lets also look at how a team that has none of those "meta frames" does in ESO without relying on maiming atterax and dual max rank arcanes?  In most cases (excluding your 360 no scope elite gamers), won't make it 8 rounds and people shouldn't have to be a 360 no scope elite player just to participate without dragging the group to a failure given the nature of this being a "casuals" game.

I remember when I first started grindfarm and had people nuking stuff and I was like "WTF man!  These guys are robbing me!" then I realized... wait a min... this means I can chill for a sec and not bust my butt and I can collect some loot, let them do the heavy lifting, and further my progress in a game that would otherwise be unachievable to see all the content in any reasonable amount of time, and since then I never looked back and thought the same way again.  I think I had that attitude for about 3 matches before I had that sudden realization.

Alternately you don't see people crying to nerf amesha/fluctus even though it totally wrecks everything and is pretty much invincible... why?  Because they aren't making it a point to try and be powerful in archwing (it's a bit of an acquired taste game mode), and instead I think crying for these nerfs is more about e-peen envy.   "That build is better than my build that I spent 50 hours and 100p invensting in which was really hard for me to get, therefore the other build must die!  Otherwise I can't be the most powerful tenno after investing $10 and 100 hours, *cries*" and catering to that attitude only breeds mediocrity and plays to the LCD, which is a mistake.

Additionally the trin build isn't as easy as "jump and win".  It still requires energy management hella, and relying on your team to protect in you in ESO because there are still times you'll run out of energy and ammo even with the min max build and you need to be able to even pick up ammo with a super frail frame because all your survivability is in the toilet because all your mods are working towards that build.  To be honest, even with a min/max build I need to be on my toes with this build by round 4 in ESO unless I have a team that knows the strategy and is in full support of it and knows how to manage it (which isn't common in a PUG group, even of MR 22+) where as you can bring a dummy valkyr or rhino set up that requires no investment and still leech your way to round 8 if you have the other frames to carry you.

Realistically the only thing I think is a little busted is not the frame or the build, but the riven strength and if enough people use the build the dispo will drop and it will be less effective WHICH IS BY DESIGN, thereby correcting the problem and still keeping the build viable.  What makes this build strong is the riven, because that's where the damage numbers come from and that WILL self correct.  It just won't self correct as quickly as Tigris Prime because the barrier to entry is too high for most people to achieve easily, and frankly, GOOD.  Let elite veteran players create builds that are hard to achieve and require creative use of the systems in place that are super hard to farm and potentially impossible for new players too have without dropping a few hundred dollars on 75% plat coupons.  Let them have a little edge as an "earned reward" for sticking with and supporting the game and community for as long as they have.  

That's my two cents and I don't know that there is a good argument against it other than "DE does whatever they want" which is true, but it's also known they listen to crybabies that scream for nerfs in the forums.  This isn't maiming atterax, this is a different kind of thing.  Not to mention if you F up your timing even once, you'll be downed instantly with this build, and you can still just get wasted from stray gunfire from ESO spawns that are too close sometimes because of how fragile you are if you aren't playing your azz off running around and bullet jumping when a crew spawns on top of you.   Additionally, you can't clear the whole, map, just a section of it, which pretty much any well built frame can do.  I do think one thing DE can do to make ESO better in general is to make the  spawn points more random so it's less easy to predict.  After you run ESO once for the day, you then know where to camp it (regardless of your frame) and more diversity in spawn points so you never know where they are going to drop might have another impact on correcting this build (and others) slightly, while upping the challenge level and fun factor a little in ESO, but before that I'd like to see host migration and operator usage fixed because those are still problems that are game breaking and regularly occurring.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Obviousclone]

Just add a hardcap  to the amount of self damage a player can take. Like if self damage from weapons exceeds 50% of your max health, reduce it to 50% of your max health. if you are below 50% hp then you die, and if you are at full health, the first self damage hit is a warning shot.

 

Kills the build (since you won't be absorbing like 70k+ self damage), and also fixes a lot of aoe nuke weapons. two birds stoned at once

[Klokwerkaos]

29 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

Just add a hardcap  to the amount of self damage a player can take. Like if self damage from weapons exceeds 50% of your max health, reduce it to 50% of your max health. if you are below 50% hp then you die, and if you are at full health, the first self damage hit is a warning shot.

 

Kills the build (since you won't be absorbing like 70k+ self damage), and also fixes a lot of aoe nuke weapons. two birds stoned at once

Not a fan of this.  It basically makes Chroma invalid.  Better to let the riven system do the work.  Disposition will fall off over time and make the build less viable.

[Jim22]

I cant really say anything about a nerf to trinity because i havnt encountered one using her with the castanas but i dont see why it needs to be nerfed it isnt that OP is it?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Jim22

[Klokwerkaos]

3 minutes ago, Jim22 said:

I cant really say anything about a nerf to trinity because i havnt encountered one using her with the castanas but i dont see why it needs to be nerfed it isnt that OP is it?

Not really.  To be honest it's slightly more powerful than having a good ignis riven with some punch through in the build, but also requires significantly more investment for that additional power.  The main differences are it does more damage than the ignis, so it scales to ESO a little better, and it's a limited radius effect, rather than a cone that clears 2 rooms at a time.  When the build becomes more popular, the riven dispo will drop and it will be less powerful and more in line with other builds, that's the nature of self correction that was built into the riven system.  

[rune_me]

45 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Not a fan of this.  It basically makes Chroma invalid.  Better to let the riven system do the work.  Disposition will fall off over time and make the build less viable.

Only if you do hour long survival missions will that ever matter to Chroma. I have never done the whole self-damage thing with Chroma because it is just so silly, but you can still facetank and murder everything the game can throw at you just fine.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

4 hours ago, Midrib said:

Isn't it equally as funny that you would point that out, while simultaneously being in every nerf thread attacking people who want to have the same fun as you without using the same brainless cheesy setup and being made completely irrelevant by it just because they had the misfortune of playing with you.

You missed the point there...it is not the position but the make pretend lack of position that is the issue. Asininely and hypocritically berating people who oppose nerfs with the consistent non sequitur that "it is DE's choice so arguing about it is pointless" while playing the faux neutrality card. 

IF he actually had the guts to finally take a real position instead of just hiding behind being contrary and one sided...that would be totally spiffy. 

But here is the real thing with the nerf crowd:

It is ALWAYS something that supposedly invalidates all your builds.

IF it is not ember...it is banshee...it is trinity it is equinox...it is maiming strike...it is gara...it is Limbo

And it NEVER stops. 

EVER.

[Klokwerkaos]

54 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Only if you do hour long survival missions will that ever matter to Chroma. I have never done the whole self-damage thing with Chroma because it is just so silly, but you can still facetank and murder everything the game can throw at you just fine.

Eidolon hunts, and also endurance runs too are a valid method of playstyle.

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Eidolon hunts, and also endurance runs too are a valid method of playstyle.

Sure. But saying it will make Chroma "invalid" is a bit over dramatic, because it really won't.

[Klokwerkaos]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

You missed the point there...it is not the position but the make pretend lack of position that is the issue. Asininely and hypocritically berating people who oppose nerfs with the consistent non sequitur that "it is DE's choice so arguing about it is pointless" while playing the faux neutrality card. 

IF he actually had the guts to finally take a real position instead of just hiding behind being contrary and one sided...that would be totally spiffy. 

But here is the real thing with the nerf crowd:

It is ALWAYS something that supposedly invalidates all your builds.

IF it is not ember...it is banshee...it is trinity it is equinox...it is maiming strike...it is gara...it is Limbo

And it NEVER stops. 

EVER.

That's what I said, it's an e peen thing and rather than investing in what works they just whine till they get their way and squeaky wheel gets the grease.  That is why I am taking a strong stance as a conscientious objector.  I'm kind of tired of the babies being pacified.  That said I am not at all against the Atarax maim Nerf.  I mainly hate this because there's no bar for entry 1 mod 1 generic weapon available super early in the game that invalidates almost all content which I would be fine with if people just used it in Solo farms or special recruited groups but they bring it to pugs and completely destroy any possible interactions and synergies.   Although if i had it my way i think I'd leave it but make it a peculiar mod that dust has a talk bubble above the warframe that says "'MERICA, F#&% YEAH!"  just so the player and everyone around them knows they are a cheese machine and the game is constantly shaming them for being obnoxious.  That said I'm welcoming the "you can't use physical objects to hit through walls" change mostly because it makes no sense and also other weapons that can do it require a mod slot for it, which seems entirely reasonable.  If you have to swap out a mod on your maiming atterax build for punch through the item gets weaker dps but added utility, which I like because now it's about player choice rather than funding the most broken thing and spam abusing it to death.  Consequently I also hate anyone that spans 1 thing with no variance.  Even though it's not what I'd call op, I get annoyed by excal that spam exalted blade forever.  Mostly because of the noise pollution, but also because there is no art to it.  It's just spamming and it's tedious to be in groups where people spam 1 and only 1 thing, which the trinity build doesn't.  It requires not only three maneuvers and a super specific set up, but also it's not something you can spam indefinitely, you still have to go collect ammo and energy much of the time and manage your energy well, it's actually pretty involved it just doesn't look like it from someone that doesn't know what it is.

[Klokwerkaos]

9 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Sure. But saying it will make Chroma "invalid" is a bit over dramatic, because it really won't.

Chroma has one basic use that he's good at, eidolon hunts.  Take that away and he's a closet frame again.  That's invalidating him.  It's what happened to ember, and why she's a closet frame now.  Can you still play ember?  Sure.  Is she technically viable?  Sure.  But she's also sub optimal for everything she does.  In a game about grind optimization is a value close to many players, particularly the successful and long term ones.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[rune_me]

8 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Chroma has one basic use that he's good at, eidolon hunts.  Take that away and he's a closet frame again.  That's invalidating him.  It's what happened to ember, and why she's a closet frame now.  Can you still play ember?  Sure.  Is she technically viable?  Sure.  But she's also sub optimal for everything she does.  In a game about grind optimization is a value close to many players, particularly the successful and long term ones.

I'm a a long term player, though, and fairly successful if I might say so myself (others might disagree) and I never cared about optimization. I just care about having fun. If a frame is fun to play, who cares if it is optimal?

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

I'm a a long term player, though, and fairly successful if I might say so myself (others might disagree) and I never cared about optimization. I just care about having fun. If a frame is fun to play, who cares if it is optimal?

Well to be fair, different playstyles are different for different people.

What you value in "fun" isn't necessarily what others value in fun.  Plus different things are fun at different times.

I remember I hated fishing at first, and now sometimes I do it just for "fun" because it's a nice relaxing and different activity and I certainly don't need the rep at this point and Im' just using it for arcanes to sell.  I hated archwing at first (like many players do) mostly for the same reasons others hate it (because it's hard until you get better gear) but not that i'm all geared out for it, I kind of enjoy when an arch alert pops up for the change of pace.

Some people are really into "feeling like a powerful tenno" and sometimes people are there for "extra challenge" and sometimes people just like "making new builds that are nuts" because it's fun to figure stuff out.  I guess my point is it's good to have different kinds of fun for different people, and we do strictly have options for players that don't want to allow for other players to play a certain way with them.  They can either A) play solo, or very reasonably B) put their own group together in recruiting chat to play the way they want.

I know I choose PUGs a lot, but for Plaugestar I wanted to play only with meta to grind the event out for all it was worth, so I recruited other players that felt the same to fill certain roles and we had a blast doing that for a couple of weeks.  That said, someone else either might not be prepared to play at that level, or might hate playing meta, and if I don't want to play with that kind of player I have to opt out of a pug.  I feel like that's where a lot of the personal responsibility lies with this stuff.  If you don't want to play with people that play that way you can ALWAYS abort and put your own group together, or play solo.  These are entirely viable options and I know I excercise them frequently.  If I jump into a group and someone is playing in a way that drives me crazy, I recognize that is a ME issue, and I make sure to go and then set up my own group, or decide it's not that important and just deal with it.

We can't possibly "make the game fun" for everyone because people have conflicting ideas of what fun is, and all of those are valid and those customer's money all adds up the same.

What i'm saying is though, I don't agree with the notion of "this isn't fun for me, therefore it shouldn't be in the game" because it may be fun for someone else, and additionally "I don't have that build and it's more powerful than my build therefore I have e-peen envy" isn't a valid argument either, which I'm not saying you're saying, but that's the general argument for "NERF THIS!" overall.  

I do believe AoE needs to be part of the game, and even if ALL OF IT, gets removed (meaning DE is actually willing to nerf all of of those frames into the ground), which is really, barf... there are still weapons like the ignis (or any beam weapon) which do pretty much the same thing with a much lower bar for entry, so wth?  And if we remove those what are we left with... all generic single target attack weapons and abilities... Destiny 2.  No thank you.  I think there is a limit on what needs to be allowed in the game for a semblance of balance but for ELITE modes, I think ELITE BUILDS should be viable and that's perfectly reasonable.

If anything these types of builds and frames that slay for ESO are even necessary because of the amount of players that come in under geared and tank efficiency and would otherwise force the group to fail rather than allowing them to sit and leech from the players that take the time to build out their gear appropriately, and that's totally a thing.  There are tons of times without running nuke trin that I've carried a group as a differnt frame and there are 2 players sitting on single digit damage percentages after 8 rounds who really, have no business being there, but that's more of an issue for DE not making a high enough bar for the elite content.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Arniox]

On 2018-04-03 at 7:17 AM, moooooski said:

So you guys saw Ember went through a serious nerf main thing (RANGE) got nerfed cause it killed all enemies thats what (DE) said but why do not nerf the same thing range nerf on TRINITY as u see now a days the new so called meta (TRINITY+CASTANAS) jump and shoot while activateing link her 3rd abilt and all things die before i get to make a kill nerf this thing i cant kill a single enemy because of that pls rethink this what i said and take proper action its takeing the fun out 
thank you 

No, don't nerf range. Just nerf the self damage. That's it. Otherwise it destroys her normal abating link tank build. 

[Nottezio]

It's not an AFK build, you have to press 3 once, jump while detonating castanas which might kill you if you detonate it too soon or too late. 

That's not a lazy behavior because you're actually active rather than pressing/bashing 4. 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, Nottezio said:

It's not an AFK build, you have to press 3 once, jump while detonating castanas which might kill you if you detonate it too soon or too late. 

That's not a lazy behavior because you're actually active rather than pressing/bashing 4. 

It's not just that, it also requires a 10-15k riven, special companion, hard to farm frame/vaulted prime, augment mods, primed mods, and you can still get wiped by stray gunfire from dudes spawning on you, and you still are fragile when you need to go run around and collect energy (as well as manage your energy well) and collect ammo.  It's a powerful build, it's not a press 4 and win build.  Plus as it gains popularity the riven dispo will go down and it will be significantly less powerful.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

That's what I said, it's an e peen thing and rather than investing in what works they just whine till they get their way and squeaky wheel gets the grease.  That is why I am taking a strong stance as a conscientious objector.  I'm kind of tired of the babies being pacified.  That said I am not at all against the Atarax maim Nerf.  I mainly hate this because there's no bar for entry 1 mod 1 generic weapon available super early in the game that invalidates almost all content which I would be fine with if people just used it in Solo farms or special recruited groups but they bring it to pugs and completely destroy any possible interactions and synergies.   Although if i had it my way i think I'd leave it but make it a peculiar mod that dust has a talk bubble above the warframe that says "'MERICA, F#&% YEAH!"  just so the player and everyone around them knows they are a cheese machine and the game is constantly shaming them for being obnoxious.  That said I'm welcoming the "you can't use physical objects to hit through walls" change mostly because it makes no sense and also other weapons that can do it require a mod slot for it, which seems entirely reasonable.  If you have to swap out a mod on your maiming atterax build for punch through the item gets weaker dps but added utility, which I like because now it's about player choice rather than funding the most broken thing and spam abusing it to death.  Consequently I also hate anyone that spans 1 thing with no variance.  Even though it's not what I'd call op, I get annoyed by excal that spam exalted blade forever.  Mostly because of the noise pollution, but also because there is no art to it.  It's just spamming and it's tedious to be in groups where people spam 1 and only 1 thing, which the trinity build doesn't.  It requires not only three maneuvers and a super specific set up, but also it's not something you can spam indefinitely, you still have to go collect ammo and energy much of the time and manage your energy well, it's actually pretty involved it just doesn't look like it from someone that doesn't know what it is.

Exactly. It is an e-peen thing. And invariably the discussion always starts with somebody saying "I can't get kills in so pls nerf X...because X is not fun for me". And it is tiresome and an entitled mentality which tries to dictate how the game should be played or what is to be considered fun for other people. It is toxic to communities and it is one of the reasons games are destroyed. And it shouldn't be acceptable at all. 

I don't mind discussions about balance and there are a fair few of those to be had in the context of Warframe...but these kind of threads are not it. Invariably balance is dragged into it as a secondary argument that merely facilitates the agenda of whining and complaining about being outplayed by better players, better equipment, better builds and wanting the Devs to force others to conform. 

There is one simple rule...if people can't accept other players playing a certain way, with certain frames, with certain builds...and they are not able to play nice...then the onus rests on them to either play solo or with a pre-made team of people who do subscribe to how they want the game to be played. I don't like Limbo. I hate the frame. But others do like Limbo. And when I go into a PUG I need to accept that other people may play Limbo...and may play him badly. If I can't accept that...I have to play solo or find other people to play with. But what would be completely selfish and unacceptable is if I would make a thread demanding others can't play Limbo because I don't like him. That would be of the same asinine mentality where people are on a diet and demand others do not eat either. 

The atterax & maiming strike combo is not the issue in this game...it is predominantly a PC thing and that is the more the case because of macro's than the combo itself. So the fundamental problem is the macro's. On console atterax and maiming strike are much less invasive and much less widespread. And they are very inaccessible for the simple reason the mod is extremely expensive and not easily obtainable outside trade. But it is a fair enough position to say that you are happy to see it gone. I don't much care about it myself. I enjoy using it from time to time. It helps me solo content...I might not be able to do that after the upcoming extensive melee nerf but we will see.  

I am not a fan of the wall nerf. Because I think that while it may sound logical....I don't think "logic" or "realism" is what makes game combat fun. Nor do I have enough trust in DE to pull it off without having scenery make enemies immune to damage or making the system clunky. But predominantly because it is a one sided correction which leaves unsolved several fundamental issues in the combat system, level design and mode mechanics that will be exacerbated by these changes. For example:

* Enemies have no issue using their abilities through walls. Energy drain, explosions, fire blasts, harpoons, nullifiers, etc. all bypass walls like they do not exist and without much warning while out of line of sight. As long as that is not fixed then melee should pass through walls.
* The same goes for spawn points...where it is too frequent for enemies to spawn inside walls, in locked rooms, or scenery that will lead to mission failure. I have had that happen three times in the last week after long missions or during sorties. And if we hadn't been able to slice through the wall with melee...we would have lost the rewards and the invested time. 
* A more recent problem...lies within Onslaught an already contemptuous mode. And it will be made far worse because of atrocious level design where enemies spawn in adjacent hallways that require a lot of back tracking to enter. All while the efficiency timer runs itself in the ground like a gerbil on crack cocaine. 
* Another less encountered issue will be MR tests. 

But I like your solution to that issue. I would gladly spend a mod on that...and seeing as Maiming strike might not be viable...I just so happen to have a mod slot free 😉  

 

[Klokwerkaos]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

 

But I like your solution to that issue. I would gladly spend a mod on that...and seeing as Maiming strike might not be viable...I just so happen to have a mod slot free 😉  

 

I see your points about melee as valid concerns that should also be addressed.  And I don't fundamentally have an issue with the maiming strike mod, I especially see your point about the fact that it's not as abused in console, that makes a lot of sense. 

There is an argument for macros though, particularly for disabled players that require handicap accessibility.  The trouble is you have people who are perfectly able bodied who abuse macros into the ground and therein lies the issue and it's nigh impossible to separate, which is why DE just doesn't have fixed policy on this and instead slaps players when they notice they do nothing but maiming atterax macros ever, but that doesn't really solve the issue or prevent it either.

I would think the main issue I have is that the mod does something that is basically for a gold mod, far too powerful.  For a riven, sure, go for it all day, but any other typical single gold mod can't otherwise invalidate most of the game where as this mod can.  I'm not against it existing, I'm against it being something that invalidates all other content with no barrier to entry as you can get it from a random event drop or a few hundred plat, which is super easy to come by either through trading or just opening your wallet.

 

[RayxAyanami]

Trinitys link build is killing all the mobs on defense missions before I can even attack them. When will something be done about this because it's really ruining my player experience.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

*sigh* I was going to read through the prior comments, but I see most of them have devolved to back and forth essential namecalling and putdowns. So I'll say my bit and leave.

 

Trinity using Link and Castanas is highly inefficient. In the time it takes to use up 75 (base) energy just to activate the skill and throw them at my feet for 15 seconds to injure or kill 3 enemies, I could just as easily take a dagger and swing it through a mob of 15 or more in less time for zero cost or gimmick, with or without primed reach making any additions to the fodder.

Even further, if I were to expend ammo like that, I'd have better option to toss them into the fray for the full 100% damage instead of nerfing it 25% before the damage actually reached those 3 enemies and still get collateral damage from any enemies around them.

So I don't see why this is an ordeal for you or anyone else asking it to be nerfed and/or adjusted because it seems more something "just to do" than anything really gamebreaking or even mildly abusive for an extremely minor gain.

(If you want my personal experience on what I ran into moments ago in Onslaught with a Link Trin doing just that, after everyone else leaving, she ended with 130 kills doing that alone while I ended with 612 from using the Sec. Penta and a dagger zaw after 9 zones on Valkyr who doesn't build that high a body count on her own)

[ARKANOiiDe]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Foxkid_8 said:

*sigh* I was going to read through the prior comments, but I see most of them have devolved to back and forth essential namecalling and putdowns. So I'll say my bit and leave.

 

Trinity using Link and Castanas is highly inefficient. In the time it takes to use up 75 (base) energy just to activate the skill and throw them at my feet for 15 seconds to injure or kill 3 enemies, I could just as easily take a dagger and swing it through a mob of 15 or more in less time for zero cost or gimmick, with or without primed reach making any additions to the fodder.

Even further, if I were to expend ammo like that, I'd have better option to toss them into the fray for the full 100% damage instead of nerfing it 25% before the damage actually reached those 3 enemies and still get collateral damage from any enemies around them.

So I don't see why this is an ordeal for you or anyone else asking it to be nerfed and/or adjusted because it seems more something "just to do" than anything really gamebreaking or even mildly abusive for an extremely minor gain.

(If you want my personal experience on what I ran into moments ago in Onslaught with a Link Trin doing just that, after everyone else leaving, she ended with 130 kills doing that alone while I ended with 612 from using the Sec. Penta and a dagger zaw after 9 zones on Valkyr who doesn't build that high a body count on her own)

Very badly build Trin, or castanas, or both. Actual good build, with Abating Link and min 223% PS, or full team of corrosive projection, no way any other frame can outdps her. Not even close. "Injure or kill 3 enemies" xD, 1 castana throw kills whole groups of enemies a time. A good Trin build can go 3000+ kills after 8 Elite Sanctuary Onslaught zones.

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

So do you wish to explain how linking to 3 enemies at a time translates to "attacking yourself with 1 castana kills whole groups"? Electricity doesn't spread on enemies like the Amprex does, haven't seen it on any weapon with straight electricity yet, including the Hystrix's electric quill. I haven't seen it happen with my own Trinity during accidental self-damage either that blasting someone through Link somehow killed the 7 others around them. It's channeled to those specific targets, it's not Ivara's bow augment on a headshot.

 

I can buy throwing the castana itself into the groups doing just that and I won't argue it, but not "3k through Link damage alone".