Kuva survival, why it's just another badly implemented idea

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

I know it hasn't hit the PS4 yet, but that doesn't mean I can't see the faults in it, just from what's been put on youtube already. This thread is also meant at DE in the naive hopes they're going to listen and make changes, suitable changes, I'm open to ideas about how a proper kuva farming should work, but if anyone else is going to comment, just keep in mind that being constructive works far better for the community than being a negative troll.

Turning the life support towers in a survival in to what's basically an extractor from excavation is a bad idea. It's going to force anyone playing to bring at least 1 Nekros, just to keep up life support for longer stays in the mission type. Personally I believe that being in a situation where 1 specific frame is a must is bad game design and nothing anyone say is going to make me think any differently. But since we're already turning life support towers in to mini excavators, what's wrong with making an actual excavation node on the kuva fortress and swapping the cryotic reward for kuva? That being said, it should reward far more than 200 kuva, as it's not uncommon for rivens to need 100.000+ kuva to get a desent roll, which happens to be the next thing I think is bad game design. The entire riven system. There's already plenty of great ideas on those and I've already made posts myself, so no need to repeat it to deaf ears. The best way of getting kuva, I think that would be having it drop like any other resource on the kuva fortress and not as the rares drop either, seeing as you do need 100.000+ quite often. Even if DE is sticking to their idea with the survival style, at least start considering making all rewards scaleable, not only in kuva survival, but all endless mission types. Each rotation you go through you'll get an additional drop from the droptable, making endless missions actually worth doing for anything but the challenge. One thing is for sure, the amount of kuva you get from doing survival, it needs to get drastically changed for the better, I mean if you know the right bugs/glitches to abuse, you can net 10k+ from a kuva siphon and 20k+ from a kuva flood. 10k from 30 minutes of survival or 5 minutes on a kuva siphon capture? Unfortunately I do think that DE is going to patch the glitch/bug instead of actually giving us a fair amount of kuva. This to me is reason enough not to bother with rivens, the few I have I couldn't really care about, all of the riven system is so broken and daft it takes the fun out of actually bothering with it. To top it all off, arcanes got an "accessability treatment" because of the prices on the market, yet some rivens go for 1, 2 even 3k plat. Are you joking DE, 300 for an arcane tops the 1-3k for a riven?! Really pushing players to bother with rivens, since there's nothing else these days eh.

[mosaickle]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Personally I believe that being in a situation where 1 specific frame is a must is bad game design and nothing anyone say is going to make me think any differently

Yeah but nothing in Warframe is a '1 specific frame is a must'.

[Railgun]

7 minutes ago, NSDBL said:

Yeah but nothing in Warframe is a '1 specific frame is a must'.

I support this.

Running with a Nekros isn't a must in this situation, though players prefer it and will probably request it in recruiting chat. From what I can tell, from playing hours of endless kuva is that you really just need a high DPS frame to kill enemies quick enough for the extra life support to drop. A Nekros isn't super necessary all the time unless the team is running a 2 Nekros 2 defensive frames group that is most of the time spread out on the map to farm the siphons quicker.

That's all I can say about that, I don't have anything to say on your other points

[Rawbeard]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

I know it hasn't hit the PS4 yet

is it even worth reading past this point?

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Personally I believe that being in a situation where 1 specific frame is a must is bad game design and nothing anyone say is going to make me think any differently. 

You and I have different definition of "must"

14 minutes ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Even if DE is sticking to their idea with the survival style, at least start considering making all rewards scaleable, not only in kuva survival, but all endless mission types. Each rotation you go through you'll get an additional drop from the droptable, making endless missions actually worth doing for anything but the challenge. 

I agree

 

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

18 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

is it even worth reading past this point?

Maybe if properly formatted...wall of text? Nope.

[Myscho]

I only want one thing - to be kuva harvester worth more than 200 Kuva

[IronWolfKnight]

43 minutes ago, NSDBL said:

Yeah but nothing in Warframe is a '1 specific frame is a must'.

I'd make an exception on Frost in Excavation missions especially in high levels since the excavator doesn't scale.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

Just gonna' link this video that proves you wrong...

 

[Samotte]

The thing is that the Kuva survival is not supposed to be the "best" way to grind kuva, but just another way to get kuva. Obviously after 50 randomizations of your riven, you only want to farm the kuva quickly, and the best advice I can give in this situation, is to invest in a ressource booster, and farm the "casual" (syphon/flood) kuva missions (with a kavat if you are lucky). But, when you want kuva + decent lvl mission + xp, kuva syphons/flood are not great. More, and it's my point of view on the grind thing, I find it's cool to play various missions, and to change often your farming spot.

As you may understand, I'm really satisfied by this new mission, it's perfect to get both xp and kuva, and to try some weapons, warframe, moding and stuff.

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

14 hours ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Maybe if properly formatted...wall of text? Nope.

As well formated as any book, sorry you're not a competent reader enough to go through without flashy graphics and drawings.

14 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Just gonna' link this video that proves you wrong...

 

If you think I'm going to sit for 20 minutes and listen to a guy use a language so foul he'd get banned from the forums you're mistaken. I will never support that raging lunatic and his use of the english language to describe something in such a foul way you wouldn't let him near any kind of children. I don't understand in the first place why DE have made him a partner, but I know if I was head of DE, I wouldn't have my company mistaken as supporting that. Gay or straight, he needs to keep his trap shut about his wildly inappropriately sexual references!

Think this thread just proves it well enough, nothing but trolls and no worth trying to improve warframe anymore. Just don't #*!% up my survivals!

[GrimAtrament]

15 hours ago, NSDBL said:

Yeah but nothing in Warframe is a '1 specific frame is a must'.

^ this i belive this should allways be true with warframe. the second we start demanding madatory frames for everything we do is the day this game dies. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

8 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

If you think I'm going to sit for 20 minutes and listen to a guy use a language so foul he'd get banned from the forums you're mistaken. I will never support that raging lunatic and his use of the english language to describe something in such a foul way you wouldn't let him near any kind of children. I don't understand in the first place why DE have made him a partner, but I know if I was head of DE, I wouldn't have my company mistaken as supporting that. Gay or straight, he needs to keep his trap shut about his wildly inappropriately sexual references!

That's the premise of the channel... and even so, you're kinda' wrong considering he just gets to the facts in this video, jokes are kept to a minimum. Nice generalization of content. And it's YouTube video, not a forums video. Nice job trying to turn this into a hate thread on Rob.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

8 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

As well formated as any book, sorry you're not a competent reader enough to go through without flashy graphics and drawings.

Not, it's not. You apparently don't know what format even is. You know, a proper book would contain more than two paragraphs and not a massive wall of text that just looks like a rant at glance. Try using that enter and indent button bud.

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Not, it's not. You apparently don't know what format even is. You know, a proper book would contain more than two paragraphs and not a massive wall of text that just looks like a rant at glance. Try using that enter and indent button bud.

Writing on a PS. But I forgot with this forum, it doesn't matter how much logic and reason you have or how good your ideas are, there's always going to be that little troll who doesn't know how to read properly and start crying about the formatting.

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

That's the premise of the channel... and even so, you're kinda' wrong considering he just gets to the facts in this video, jokes are kept to a minimum. Nice generalization of content. And it's YouTube video, not a forums video. Nice job trying to turn this into a hate thread on Rob.

Not trying to turn this in to a "hate thread on Rob", I can't stand any of his content and even 1 of his jokes is too much, they are wildly inappropriately and it's a simple choice if I want to listen to him or not. I hate his content and I'm not telling anyone else to hate him, but if you're getting offended by me not wanting to waste my time listening to him let me just say this: I don't think he offers anything positive to warframe or anything else, he's so out of line he should just keep to himself and be quiet. And as for the content, I am willing to bet he doesn't mention any of the solo glitching you can do on kuva siphon/flood to get 10-20k kuva each run. Anyway, point is, I know how to get the most kuva, but's it's a broken and boring mission that only feeds an even more frustratingly broken and badly designed aspect of the game (rivens), I see no point in bothering with rivens, as I'm not enjoying any part if it. Survivals I like, but the kuva survival doesn't seem well thought through and properly designed.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 hour ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Not trying to turn this in to a "hate thread on Rob", I can't stand any of his content and even 1 of his jokes is too much, they are wildly inappropriately and it's a simple choice if I want to listen to him or not. I hate his content and I'm not telling anyone else to hate him, but if you're getting offended by me not wanting to waste my time listening to him let me just say this: I don't think he offers anything positive to warframe or anything else, he's so out of line he should just keep to himself and be quiet. And as for the content, I am willing to bet he doesn't mention any of the solo glitching you can do on kuva siphon/flood to get 10-20k kuva each run. Anyway, point is, I know how to get the most kuva, but's it's a broken and boring mission that only feeds an even more frustratingly broken and badly designed aspect of the game (rivens), I see no point in bothering with rivens, as I'm not enjoying any part if it. Survivals I like, but the kuva survival doesn't seem well thought through and properly designed.

Okay, ignore the video and ignore some valid points with your little BS excuse to avoid being corrected.

[MunsuLight]

Nekros is not even needed to got to 20 minutes IMO.. You just need to kill thing fast enough .. and I've had pub with 2 nekros that couldn't go to 20 minutes because they thought that only desecrate without them killing would be OK.. 

I've also had a 30 minutes run without a Nekros. .was a little bit more iffy  and I know we had semi good spawns , but people are making it seems not as good as it is..

The only change I think is needed is the incentive to go further 20 minutes.. Why make it a survival .. if you dotn scale the reward with time...

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

1 hour ago, MunsuLight said:

Nekros is not even needed to got to 20 minutes IMO.. You just need to kill thing fast enough .. and I've had pub with 2 nekros that couldn't go to 20 minutes because they thought that only desecrate without them killing would be OK.. 

I've also had a 30 minutes run without a Nekros. .was a little bit more iffy  and I know we had semi good spawns , but people are making it seems not as good as it is..

The only change I think is needed is the incentive to go further 20 minutes.. Why make it a survival .. if you dotn scale the reward with time...

The entire point was to make 2 hour or 4 hour runs viable as a means of farming kuva or any other survival, largely by increasing rewards for each rotation in the drop table and resource drops aswell. If you make a survival style farming, where you need to run around the entire map, you're going to disrupt the spawn of the enemies constantly, it is going to slow down the speed of your kills, while the kuva towers does give you 10% life support, it's not enough to make up for what you loose by the playstyle needed for that kind of missions. To combat that you will need to either use life support towers for life support, making you get less kuva, or bring a nekros. I think there's missions far better suited for that playstyle (as mentioned excavation, since kuva survival is just a mini excavation).

If DE is going to keep the current style, I think the amount of kuva given by each successful extractor should be increased by 50 for each 5 minutes, but I'd much prefere to see a kuva excavation and I'd love to see all endless missions get 1 addition drop added to your reward for each rotation of the drop table. 1 rotation = 1 drop, 2 rotations = 2 drops, 3 rotations = 3 drops and so on, and not just a multiplier to the 1 drop you get, but x number of actual entries in the drop table. Imagine doing 80 waves and you would be rewarded by getting a couple of relics, a mod and some endo.

[MrLagzy]

On 4/5/2018 at 3:56 PM, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Personally I believe that being in a situation where 1 specific frame is a must is bad game design and nothing anyone say is going to make me think any differently.

You want us to form constructive and rational arguments, yet you're so stuck you won't even bother changing opinion despite ANY kind of argument against yours is presented to you.. 

 

On 4/6/2018 at 7:01 AM, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Think this thread just proves it well enough, nothing but trolls and no worth trying to improve warframe anymore. Just don't #*!% up my survivals!

Ahh.. I see.. You're not a serious poster, just a regular troll who wants to complain and complain, yet when arguments are posted to you, you disregard it and continue complain without any kind of constructive criticism at all.

[fluffysnowcap]

I'm just gonna link what I said another discussions about the same topic, and proceeds to watch the same knee jerk reaction's of. 

• but Rob said this.
• this will ruin the economy.
• alloy plate alloy plate alloy plate.
• scaling is broken.
• by far my favourite, endless missions were never meant to be played past a rotation c and playing past the rotation c should not grant any special benefits to anyone.

On 03/04/2018 at 5:00 AM, fluffysnowcap said:

1. Void fissure style scaling added to all endless missions. Example below.

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Reward Intervals

The reward intervals per mission type are as followed:

• Defense: 5 waves
• Interception: 1 round
• Survival: 5 minutes
• Excavation: 200 Cryotic

Bonuses per Interval

• Every reward interval, you get a predetermined booster. These boosters stack the longer you stay and are capped at double.

1. The first interval: 1.25x Affinity.
2. The second interval: 1.25x Credits Booster. (affects credit cashes)
3. The third interval: 1.25x Resources Booster. (effects missions resources IE, Kuva and Cryotic as well as rewards)
4. The fourth interval: 1.25x Resource Drop Rate.
5. The fifth interval: This one will be the largest change replacing the random Exceptional Relic With a planets appropriate rare resource (Affected by Resources Boosters)
6. The sixth interval: 1.5x Affinity (replaces first).
7. The seventh interval: 1.5x Credits (replaces second).
8. The eighth interval: 1.5x Resources (replaces third).
9. The ninth interval: 1.5x Resource Drop Rate (replaces fourth).
10. The tenth interval: a planets appropriate rare resource (Same amount as the first time to prevent runaway scaling, Affected by Resources Boosters)

• Boosters continue to increase every set of intervals and are capped at double (2x). After the nineteenthinterval, all boosters will have reached their cap.

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200 Kuva per Tower

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Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2200 Kuva 146.6 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 4500 Kuva 180 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 6700 Kuva 167.5 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 5700 Kuva 228 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 12400 Kuva 190.7 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 6300 Kuva 252 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 18700 Kuva 207.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 7600 Kuva 304 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 26300 Kuva 228.6 Kuva per minutes

250 Kuva per Tower

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Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2750 Kuva 183.3 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 5500 Kuva 220 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 8250 Kuva 206.2 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 6975 Kuva 279 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 15225 Kuva 234.2 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 7700 Kuva 308 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 22925 Kuva 254.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 9300 Kuva 372 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 32225 Kuva 280.2 Kuva per minutes

 

300 will surpass back to back Floods so i didn't crunch the numbers.

2. Increasing by a fixed amount per Life support tower, balanced so for the first 20 minutes is is between Kuva siphons and floods; however past 40 minutes it should have the greatest Kuva to time investment you can achieve them game. All scaling capping at 1 hour.

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Link to the source.

Current Kuva per minute.

Flood's 243.2, Siphon's 130.3 Kuva Suvival 128

Ideally Kuva Survival should give approximately 190 Kuva per minute for the first 20 minutes, and approximately 250 Kuva per minute for the first 40 minutes.

There are 13.3 Life support towers in 20 minutes That's one every 90 seconds, not including the one that spawns at the very beginning.

so we need scaling that works per tower to create an out come of 190 ish kuva per minute.

OH god i need to work out 14(X+(YxN))÷20=190   wish i remembered how to do Compound interest\integers

Examples. X is the Life support towers and Y is the scaling per tower

20 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

14(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 14(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         185.3               |             218.75           |             231               |           253.75              | Kuva per minutes

         3710              |           4375             |            4620            |           5075              | Total Kuva

 

40 minutes

X=200 and Y=10   |   X=200 and Y=15   |   X=200 and Y=20  |   X=200 and Y=25  |

28(X+(YxN))÷20=   |   28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=   | 28(X+(YxN))÷20=     |

         234.5               |            281.75            |          320                  |            376.25             | Kuva per minutes

         9380             |            11270           |           12800           |           15050             | Total Kuva

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My personal opinion of the two possibilities is that Void fissure style scaling to all endless will be more fitting to the game as a whole. Compared to a fixed percentage or integer increase that will suffer from the possibility of runaway scaling, or initial rewards that are completely underwhelming.

 

I would be at a miss if i didn't include a flat buff to the kuva drops argument.

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examples in this tab are done under hypothetically perfect conditions

20 minute Runs Kuva per minute (14 life support towers)      |    optimal 7 minute Runs Kuva per minutes (5 life support towers)

                     Flat 200  =  2800   Kuva 140 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 200  =  1000   Kuva 142.8 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 225  =  3150   Kuva 157.5 Kuva per minute      |            Flat 225  =  1125   Kuva 160.7 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 250  =  3500   Kuva 175 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 250  =  1250   Kuva 178.5 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 275  =  3850   Kuva 192.5 Kuva per minute      |            Flat 275  =  1375   Kuva 196.4 Kuva per minute

                     Flat 300  =  4200   Kuva 210 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 300  =  1500   Kuva 214.2 Kuva per minute

additional notes "A flat increase would be the easiest one to balance but wouldn't encourage longer survival at all, and since i believe endless missions need a second pass and going long should be disproportionately rewarded to a certain extent, as come one the mission type is about going the extra mile"

Have fun screaming strawman, attacking my spelling and grammar, or falling behind but Rob said, without attempting to see my arguments or honestly trying to disprove or rebuttal them.

PS. Before you bring up people getting traped in Survival and or Excavation and that kind of toxic behaviour.

It can be solved by either replacing the abort option with emergency extract or allowing players to use the exit on there own.

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

12 hours ago, MrLagzy said:

You want us to form constructive and rational arguments, yet you're so stuck you won't even bother changing opinion despite ANY kind of argument against yours is presented to you.. 

 

Ahh.. I see.. You're not a serious poster, just a regular troll who wants to complain and complain, yet when arguments are posted to you, you disregard it and continue complain without any kind of constructive criticism at all.

I don't need to change my opinion to something, if I don't agree with it, no matter how rational it might be. This thread was never meant to change anyones opinion, but to find common ground to a betterment of the game. As for being serious poster, I don't sit with unargumented ideas for improving the game and just wanting everything to be easier, quite the opposite in fact. If you read it again, there's quite a large amount of constructive criticism in what I've presented.

@fluffysnowcap I know players where never meant to go past rotation c, but we have been doing that for years and it's about time to adapt to the fact that we are. I like you're quoting different posts and threads, thumbs up for that, but the content I do disagree with. I don't think fissure missions should scale according to a planets resources, that's not why you choose a fissure over a normal endless. I would like to see an increased chance for rare drops the further you go. Not to the point where you're going to reach 100% rare chance, but it would be nice with something like 20-25% chance for a rare drop 3 hours in to a survival. Regular endless missions I think the best option for scaling rewards would be a second, third, fourth etc dip in the reward pool for each completetion of a rotation. 

Assuming 100% towers convertion in a kuva survival is a forcing you to play a nekros/hydroid or bring one in a squad. Considering the mechanics of the survivals, you're not going to be able to keep up life support and use 100% life support convertion without, even with the 10% life support you get from a converted tower. The need to bring specific frames is what I don't like about he system and I think kuva drops could have been implemented in far better ways. Anything from a planetary resources drop to much higher values (2.000) as a rotation reward. I also disagree with capping the scaling at any given point, if you're good enough to go for 6 hours, you should be rewarded for going 6 hours. I'd like for all endless missions to reward players who's capable of staying in the missions for a long time, no matter which mission type or planet, the endless should scale and give insentives to push yourself just that little longer. 

Not looking to attack any kind of spelling or scream strawman, no need for that. A sentense can be spelled wrong and still contain a brilliant idea.

[fluffysnowcap]

@(PS4)NicolaiBM I was not asking for void fissures to be changed but for there changes to be applied to all endless missions. And for the fifth rotashion I just figured that a plant appropriate rare resource with a few thematic changes would be the best wat to avoid making it scale faster or give out upgraded relic's.

As for the cap, I do have to say one is needed. But that's there more because of the void fissure sailing cap that already exists, and the huge amount of people going this will Rouen my game.

As for your stacking the reward pool that's a very unique aproch to the issue of unrewarding reward's, one that I think could be fun; however it fails to touch the three issues I had  of, 1 kuva drops in endless are a joke, 2 survive/endless is in need of an insentient, and finally(3) there has to be a better way to farm for basic resorces than the current meathead.

Exiting survival is a long gripe iv had and excavation was added to that, thanks to what could be called a post derailed gas lighting the face that the post creater missed the fact excavation has the same issue.

[tCartmant]

On 4/5/2018 at 7:56 AM, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

I know it hasn't hit the PS4 yet, but that doesn't mean I can't see the faults in it, just from what's been put on youtube already. This thread is also meant at DE in the naive hopes they're going to listen and make changes, suitable changes, I'm open to ideas about how a proper kuva farming should work, but if anyone else is going to comment, just keep in mind that being constructive works far better for the community than being a negative troll.

Honestly, this is your issue right here. You have never tried it.

I usually go in with rando's so having a choice on what is in the missions really isnt an option. I have seen us with 2 frosts and 2 nekro's. Works really well. I have also seen us come in without a nekros or frost and guess what? We are just fine. So this 1 frame stuff is BS. Nekros surely helps but its not needed. 

I have overall been fine with how much kuva drops. Can more drop and be cool? sure but I like being able to just sit in a mission for awhile and collect it. Most teams I am with cant last past 20 minutes so I am not overly concerned.