Make Warframe Clear of the Feel of Pay to win

[Obviousclone]

44 minutes ago, Get_Singed said:

I imagine you can't see the irony in the fact that you are literally using anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias as an argument to try to prove that I'm using confirmation bias.

"I uninstalled and all these people said the same thing so I must be right." That's exactly what confirmation bias is. You go around seeing the comments of players who are displeased because those are the very people likely to say something. No one comes on the forums to say "Wow DE thanks for making such a great f2p model for your game, I just want you to know I love how this game is developed," they come to the forums to complain. Simple. You are only seeing the players who have something to complain about, and NOT seeing ALL the players who don't have a problem with how it is. That's what confirmation bias is.

The fact that the game is growing means that there are MORE players joining than there are players leaving. I am not trying to pretend that no players stop playing the game at all, simply that this game is ABSOLUTELY NOT pay to win/pay to play, and there are not enough people dropping off of the game because they feel like it is for it to even be a problem. If Warframe is growing, that IS proof that the game is successful.

Now, would you care to provide even a single shred of evidence that this game is so insanely pay to win/pay to play that players are leaving the game in droves without using anecdotal evidence or confirmation bias, which you so vehemently hate?

This was posted a year ago.

Literally 75% of the player base is below MR 3.

 

I got to MR 6 personally before I decided to drop the game for a month and it was only until I watched some youtube vids of a guy (who no longer plays warframe, you may know him as GuidesForUsAll) who showed the plat-making process for a new player. And then I found out how to emulate it myself.

 

Also OP isn't talking or arguing about whether the game is pay to win. If you had basic reading comprehension/actually read his post you would know this. He is talking about how the game looks p2w to new players which in turn drives them away. And results in dead MR 0 accounts. The ones that make up nearly half the games total accounts.

 

This isn't something the community itself can fix. A new player is going to see the in-game market first and not bother with chat/forums/youtube/wikis until they've completed the tutorial at a bare minimum. And if they hit a wall, something too hard, and they think that the only way to get past is to pony up plat, that's what makes them leave. For me, I almost quit when I was doing stolen dreams quest solo. A level 8 capture target named "maroo" kills me and I think "is this the part where I need stronger weapons/gear to win?". And I almost quit from that point. That was 3 years ago, 25 mastery ranks ago, and no at no point during that moment did I bother with the wiki or with chat or with the forums.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, Get_Singed said:

I imagine you can't see the irony in the fact that you are literally using anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias as an argument to try to prove that I'm using confirmation bias.

"I uninstalled and all these people said the same thing so I must be right." That's exactly what confirmation bias is. You go around seeing the comments of players who are displeased because those are the very people likely to say something. No one comes on the forums to say "Wow DE thanks for making such a great f2p model for your game, I just want you to know I love how this game is developed," they come to the forums to complain. Simple. You are only seeing the players who have something to complain about, and NOT seeing ALL the players who don't have a problem with how it is. That's what confirmation bias is.

The fact that the game is growing means that there are MORE players joining than there are players leaving. I am not trying to pretend that no players stop playing the game at all, simply that this game is ABSOLUTELY NOT pay to win/pay to play, and there are not enough people dropping off of the game because they feel like it is for it to even be a problem. If Warframe is growing, that IS proof that the game is successful.

Now, would you care to provide even a single shred of evidence that this game is so insanely pay to win/pay to play that players are leaving the game in droves without using anecdotal evidence or confirmation bias, which you so vehemently hate?

You can construct all the straw man arguments you want. The fact still remains that you are so fundamentally fanatic about proving that this game isn't pay-to-win or pay-to-play that you have been utterly unable to comprehend that that is absolutely not the discussion we are having....at all. Even when it has been spelled out in a way a 3 year old can understand it. 

Nobody here said the game IS pay-to-win. Absolutely nobody.

Nobody has argued this...yet like a Don Quixote attacking imaginary windmills without any inclination to listen to any actual reason...you have been foaming at the mouth about something that isn't there making you completely unable to understand the argument being made.

What has been said by OP, and many other people over the years, is that the wider believe in the gaming community is that this game is not f2p. And that is in no small part because of the way the new player experience is structured and the game is presented to players who decide to give it a go...that they will have to fork up money and that the game is not f2p. 

This is one of the most heard reasons why people do not pick up the game or leave the game once they tried it for a few hours (if that). 

This entire argument has nothing to do with players dropping the game in droves once they have become part of the active player base....because it has everything to do with the reason why so few people become part of that active player base.

So arguing that the game has more players now than it used to means nothing because it doesn't address the fact that we are talking about people who never start playing the game. Growth can, and certainly in this case, be in spite of itself. 

The game itself however is still a fringe game in the wider community having real issues with becoming mainstream. Even DE has acknowledged that that is in the very least partly caused by their reputation of not being f2p and selling power as they have previously done. 

I am also not talking about how the game is being discussed on this forum. I am talking about how the game is discussed OUTSIDE the warframe community. And outside the warframe community one of the main reasons given why people do not pick up the game IS because it is not considered f2p. 

This is not confirmation bias....unlike pretending people have information they do not have in the first hour of the game or that your girlfriend, whom you have provided that information to, is any evidence of how potential players view the game...or that the trading system new players do not have access to can be used to earn in game play by selling items new players do not have. 

So instead of wasting your time trying to dispute a point nobody has actually made you perhaps could contribute to the actual discussion of WHY it is that after so many years the game still has a reputation of not being f2p and how that can be remedied by improving the potential new player experience. 

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, sleepychewbacca said:

You.... expect different from a forum for people who generally like the game? 

I'm not sure what you're expecting. If you wanted a circlejerk that was "hur-dur-this-thing-in-warframe-sucks", you're not in the best place for this. 

There is a huge difference between liking the game and being so fanatical about it that you lose all sense of what is actually being said. 

The new player experience sucks. This is not a controversial topic. We all know that the new player experience pretty much sucks...and that "all" is including DE who regularly express the need and wish to improve on that experience. 

 

 

[sleepychewbacca]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

There is a huge difference between liking the game and being so fanatical about it that you lose all sense of what is actually being said. 

The new player experience sucks. This is not a controversial topic. We all know that the new player experience pretty much sucks...and that "all" is including DE who regularly express the need and wish to improve on that experience. 

 

 

Fanatical would be chasing opinions like yours with pitchforks. And perhaps being much much more vitriolic. 

Disagreements don't necessarily equate to being fanatical. I don't follow your rational for one, but I'm not dismissing your point. I just don't see it like you do. I just feel that in the points you've raised, you're not being clear which is why you feel there is a loss of things being said, as you're raising and rebutting sub-tangents. 

 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

17 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Fanatical would be chasing opinions like yours with pitchforks. And perhaps being much much more vitriolic. 

Disagreements don't necessarily equate to being fanatical. I don't follow your rational for one, but I'm not dismissing your point. I just don't see it like you do. I just feel that in the points you've raised, you're not being clear which is why you feel there is a loss of things being said, as you're raising and rebutting sub-tangents. 

 

That would be a valid argument if it weren't for the fact that that is absolutely not what is in any way shape or form happening. 

A difference of opinion is saying that the removal of slot cost is a good solution or not. And note that I have not commented on what would be a good solution. 

Since we don't even get to that point  because what is instead happening is that what is being said isn't addressed but rather dismissed by virtue of straw man arguments attacking arguments never having been made. 

It isn't an opinion to say that wf is perceived as not f2p and that this (mis)conception turns away new and potential players. This is pretty well established fact even DE acknowledges. 

We can argue whether or not something should be done about it and what that something is but when the discussion is dismissed because knowledge new players do not have is considered as self evident you are not engaging in an exchange of opinions.

Fanatical would be saying "the game is fine get the hell out if you do not think so".

Edited April 17, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[sleepychewbacca]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

That would be a valid argument if it weren't for the fact that that is absolutely not what is in any way shape or form happening. 

A difference of opinion is saying that the removal of slot cost is a good solution or not. And note that I have not commented on what would be a good solution. 

Since we don't even get to that point  because what is instead happening is that what is being said isn't addressed but rather dismissed by virtue of straw man arguments attacking arguments never having been made. 

It isn't an opinion to say that wf is perceived as not f2p and that this (mis)conception turns away new and potential players. This is pretty well established fact even DE acknowledges. 

We can argue whether or not something should be done about it and what that something is but when the discussion is dismissed because knowledge new players do not have is considered as self evident you are not engaging in an exchange of opinions.

Fanatical would be saying "the game is fine get the hell out if you do not think so".

Fair enough. In this context, I'll agree to disagree with you. 

Till then, happy grinding.

[-Krism-]

On 4/13/2018 at 5:24 PM, TopSpeed said:

but new players start the game and dont know the game at all,

 

That's the principle of being a new player don't you think?

[Zeclem]

warframe is p2w.

Spoiler

seriously tho, people need to read before bashing on op, you damn whiteknights.

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

This whole thread is therapeutic for a bad mood at 5:30 A.M.  Can't stop laughing lol

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

warframe is p2w.

  Reveal hidden contents

seriously tho, people need to read before bashing on op, you damn whiteknights.

 

I re-read it.

I still disagree. Slots are not required for winning. Slots are not required for playing the game. Deleting frames sucks, absolutely, but it's still a thing you can do to get that slot. There is nothing pay to win about the slots, no resemblance, no 'feel'.

Given the sheer number of things currently available, I could see the amount of starter slots increased, especially given there's... what, 9 total starter weapons? But outright removing the costs is not going to happen.

[Zeclem]

48 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I re-read it.

I still disagree. Slots are not required for winning. Slots are not required for playing the game. Deleting frames sucks, absolutely, but it's still a thing you can do to get that slot. There is nothing pay to win about the slots, no resemblance, no 'feel'.

Given the sheer number of things currently available, I could see the amount of starter slots increased, especially given there's... what, 9 total starter weapons? But outright removing the costs is not going to happen.

in a game about collecting new weapons and stuff, slots are absolutely necessary. dont lie to yourself.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

To the op, i understand how you feel that WF may come off as a pay to win game but to be honest any game that uses microtransactions to sell non-cosmetic items (boosters, weapons, resources, etc) is always going to feel like that regardless if you can obtain it in game is going to have that pay to win feeling... and to anyone pay to skip is pay to win, imo. We should be lucky that WF does not have lootbox mechanics and we can trade most items in WF and not forced into a progression system only allows grind or buy.

Now, new player have a different set issues. Having introduced a friend to warframe recently and replaying the first levels again with the new planetary specter system, WF is still missing ramp up lore - to help explain the worlds, bosses, factions to new players. No player should feel they need to go out to a 3rd party to learn about it - the codex (and codex scanning) is not even explained after the first mission.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

in a game about collecting new weapons and stuff, slots are absolutely necessary. dont lie to yourself.

Perhaps we just have different interpretations of what this game is supposed to be. 

I see Pokemon as a game of collecting, I see Warframe as a game of killing.

[JDxBarracka]

wat??

[Zeclem]

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Perhaps we just have different interpretations of what this game is supposed to be. 

I see Pokemon as a game of collecting, I see Warframe as a game of killing.

in pokemon, you fight stuff and you collect new stuff
in warframe, you fight stuff and you collect new stuff to build new stuff.

its not that big of a difference. and nobody in their right mind would wanna keep going with about 2 frames and 5 guns in the game or just keep rebuilding them, so slots are very much a necessity.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

in pokemon, you fight stuff and you collect new stuff
in warframe, you fight stuff and you collect new stuff to build new stuff.

its not that big of a difference. and nobody in their right mind would wanna keep going with about 2 frames and 5 guns in the game or just keep rebuilding them, so slots are very much a necessity.

Based on my previous post is clear I don't see it that way, regardless of what you say.

I do not see Warframe as a game solely about collecting, at all.

Like I said, increase the base starter slots so there's less pressure. But the cost is fine imo.

[Orgoon]

I have 24 warframe slots and 72 weapon slots, did I win?

Can I still claim the prize even if I didn't buy any plat for money?

[Zeclem]

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Based on my previous post is clear I don't see it that way, regardless of what you say.

I do not see Warframe as a game solely about collecting, at all.

Like I said, increase the base starter slots so there's less pressure. But the cost is fine imo.

so you are telling me that you'd still play the game if you could only keep 5 weps and 2 frames at one time and when you wanted to switch you have to trash one and rebuild the new stuff you want to switch? youre either lying or you enjoy pain. and i can assure you most people dont enjoy pain at all.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

so you are telling me that you'd still play the game if you could only keep 5 weps and 2 frames at one time and when you wanted to switch you have to trash one and rebuild the new stuff you want to switch? youre either lying or you enjoy pain. and i can assure you most people dont enjoy pain at all.

Stop being obtuse. Twice now I've stated "increase the base slots". 

Not like I play anything except Wukong now anyway.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Stop being obtuse. Twice now I've stated "increase the base slots". 

Not like I play anything except Wukong now anyway.

increase base slots to what? 5? 10? what about weapons? 10, 15? how about fixing the actual issue and 1-make them cost credits or 2-explain to new players how to make plat via trading. and can people please stop claiming that its a fact that de makes too much money off of slots? 20 plat is close to nothing while its a damn fortune for a new player who doesnt know anything about the game. 

and no, its not being obtuse. youre claiming that you dont need more slots than given in this game, which is ridicilous. slots are a necessity, period. theres no "i dont see the game that way"s or "theyre just very convenient"s to this fact. 

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

 and no, its not being obtuse. youre claiming that you dont need more slots than given in this game, which is ridicilous. slots are a necessity, period. theres no "i dont see the game that way"s or "theyre just very convenient"s to this fact. 

In your opinion.

Slots are just incredibly convenient to the point of almost being necessary... still not though in my opinion.

And that's absolutely how I see it. You can keep claiming they're totally necessary, but that's your opinion and not one I agree with. Because factually you can play everything in the game with the bare minimum.

And yes, obtuse. When I state multiple times that increasing the base slots would absolutely be reasonable in the games current state it's obtuse to keep bringing up the "5 weapon slots 2 warframe slots" point.

Edited April 17, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Zeclem]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

In your opinion.

ok lets remove the ability to have more than 5 slots then and see how long the game will last. i can guarantee it wont be long.

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Slots are just incredibly convenient to the point of almost being necessary... still not though in my opinion.

your opinion is wrong. factually wrong. 

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

And that's absolutely how I see it. You can keep claiming they're totally necessary, but that's your opinion and not one I agree with. Because factually you can play everything in the game with the bare minimum.

i can only do mining and fishing in the game and see as theyre the only activities worth doing. that does not mean this is a fishing and mining game.

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

And yes, obtuse. When I state multiple times that increasing the base slots would absolutely be reasonable in the games current state it's obtuse to keep bringing up the "5 weapon slots 2 warframe slots" point.

no, its not obtuse because you keep saying that current state of base slots are also enough cus you can get everything still, which is, as ive stated, utterly ridicilous.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

I can only do mining and fishing in the game and see as theyre the only activities worth doing. that does not mean this is a fishing and mining game

i can only collect new weapons and warframes and see theyre the only activities worth doing. that does not mean this is a collecting game. 

See how pointless this is?

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

no, its not obtuse because you keep saying that current state of base slots are also enough cus you can get everything still, which is, as ive stated, utterly ridicilous

No, I'm saying that removing the plat cost based on "its pay to win" is utterly ridiculous, because it's not a necessity and you don't "win".

*Shrug*

Tired of explaining this, we're just going to go around and around.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

i can only collect new weapons and warframes and see theyre the only activities worth doing. that does not mean this is a collecting game. 

See how pointless this is?

no, i dont. cus the game does not have any content other than collecting new stuff/upgrades to your arsenal, therefore game IS about collecting new shinies. 

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

No, I'm saying that removing the plat cost based on "its pay to win" is utterly ridiculous, because it's not a necessity and you don't "win".

its not p2w yes, but it will sure as hell look as such to the new players who dont know anything, and a graph shared in a reply to this thread shows that majority accounts in this game did not make it past the starter degree for a reason.

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

*Shrug*

Tired of explaining this, we're just going to go around and around.

theres really nothing to be explained, youre just going against the fact that slots are a necessity. 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

no, i dont. cus the game does not have any content other than collecting new stuff/upgrades to your arsenal, therefore game IS about collecting new shinies. 

To you.

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

its not p2w yes, but it will sure as hell look as such to the new players who dont know anything, and a graph shared in a reply to this thread shows that majority accounts in this game did not make it past the starter degree for a reason.

Here's a genius idea then, how about we increase the base slots available so that new players able to collect a decent amount of content, but DE still gets paid for slots by older players who want to collect everything?

Wish someone had suggested that sooner...