Make Warframe Clear of the Feel of Pay to win

[Zeclem]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

To you.

ok tell me what is to do in the game that does not include collecting stuff to build stuff with it? unless you count going through every content ingame with a starter loadout with no mods whatsoever as content. 

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Here's a genius idea then, how about we increase the base slots available so that new players able to collect a decent amount of content, but DE still gets paid for slots by older players who want to collect everything?

Wish someone had suggested that sooner...

as ive stated before, that is a bandaid solution. we dont need more of those. 

[(PSN)Eagleman443]

Sorry OP, but Warframe isn’t P2W

You can get most stuff in game through blueprints and even get the parts through Syndicates, by farming, etc

[DeMonkey]

As I said, round and round in circles.

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

ok tell me what is to do in the game that does not include collecting stuff to build stuff with it? unless you count going through every content ingame with a starter loadout with no mods whatsoever as content. 

Don't need to.

If the only thing in this game was collecting things then everyone would quit once they have all the weapons/slots. Guaranteed. The fact that there are people with everything who still play the game after collecting everything shows that there is more to do, curiously.

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

as ive stated before, that is a bandaid solution. we dont need more of those. 

This is the first time you've used the term ''bandaid solution'', so not really stated it before.

I also don't see how it's a bandaid in the slightest. New players don't feel as much pressure, and won't look at the game as ''pay to win'' because they'll have access to quite a bit more at once depending on how it would be implemented. DE still make money. Best of both worlds.

Whatever, continue being irrationally salty at me. I've offered an alternative that doesn't hurt DE's pocket and makes the game better for new players, continue raging against the plat cost and asserting that they're completely necessary all you want, really doesn't bother me.

Enjoy.

Edited April 17, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

As I said, round and round in circles.

Don't need to.

burden of proof is a thing. if you cant back up your claims, then youre simply wrong in them.

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

If the only thing in this game was collecting things then everyone would quit once they have all the weapons/slots. Guaranteed. The fact that there are people with everything who still play the game after collecting everything shows that there is more to do, curiously.

and thats pretty much whats happening with most vets, if you havent noticed. people play only at updates, grab all the shinies it has and take a break, waiting for next one. there is a few that are still playing, dealing with rivens and arcanes(aka theyre still collecting) but they are a minority. 

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

This is the first time you've used the term ''bandaid solution'', so not really stated it before.

i dont have to use the exact term to say that its a bandaid solution now do i? lets not argue semantics here.

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

I also don't see how it's a bandaid in the slightest. New players don't feel as much pressure, and won't look at the game as ''pay to win'' because they'll have access to quite a bit more at once depending on how it would be implemented. DE still make money. Best of both worlds.

it would be a far better solution to show new players how to earn plat since plat isnt only earned for slots. and if you cant have a slot for every wf and slot at the start without knowing how to earn plat i know a lot of people who would simply go "so i have to spend money to have access to every wep? thats p2w bs" and quit. while teaching them how to earn plat for it wouldnt have that issue.

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Whatever, continue being irrationally salty at me. I've offered an alternative that doesn't hurt DE's pocket and makes the game better for new players, continue raging against the plat cost and asserting that they're completely necessary all you want, really doesn't bother me.

the alternative you have offered does not adress the actual issue behind this at all. 

and im salty for pointing out the flaws in your argument? sorry, but just because an issue does not bother you does not mean it is not an issue. world does not revolve around you, unfortunately. 

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:48 AM, TopSpeed said:

not weapon slot and warframe slots .....

DE get support for cosmetics they dont need the plat for weapons slots and warframe slots.

My issue is you don't NEED 18 Warframes and 300 weapons.

Just one slot for a frame you intend to keep and have fun with, the other to MR fodder and decide if a new frame is worth it.

Pro tip: stealth is what you make it, dot missions can be done by any frame given your willing to learn and git gud. Excalibur can do anything the game will throw at you.

Same goes for weapons. You really only need a few, if you need a stealthy weapon, there are mods and extra build slots to configure for it.

If you desire to "catch'em all" then I don't see why paying is an issue.

Not to mention there are a few free weapons given out with catalyst & slots free through questing and a code: FREESWORD. If you don't desire to keep the weapon it's a slot.

I personally think Umbra Excalibur may be the first Warframe that will be added into your inventory as a fully built reward with a reactor.

[DeMonkey]

55 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

burden of proof is a thing. if you cant back up your claims, then youre simply wrong in them.

Genius.

''I don't need to''. As in, you're more than capable of working out why for yourself. Despite that I still backed up my claim rendering your comment moot.

55 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

and thats pretty much whats happening with most vets, if you havent noticed. people play only at updates, grab all the shinies it has and take a break, waiting for next one. there is a few that are still playing, dealing with rivens and arcanes(aka theyre still collecting) but they are a minority. 

Can you back up your claim? I mean, you're attempting to crap all over me for apparently not backing up a claim, despite actually doing that, yet here you are making a claim you cannot back up. You have no numbers, no data, just a few threads somewhere on these forums that don't speak for the majority.

Unless this happens for every single person who players Warframe ever, then no, collecting shinies is not the only thing in the game.

Rivens and Arcanes are irrelevant to the conversation since they don't require Warframe/Weapon slots.

55 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

it would be a far better solution to show new players how to earn plat since plat isnt only earned for slots. and if you cant have a slot for every wf and slot at the start without knowing how to earn plat i know a lot of people who would simply go "so i have to spend money to have access to every wep? thats p2w bs" and quit. while teaching them how to earn plat for it wouldnt have that issue.

In your opinion. Just because you think this is the correct solution doesn't mean that mine is a bandaid.

For example if I was so inclined I'd call yours a bandaid, teaching players about trade chat wouldn't stop them from worrying about the lack of slots early on when they have nothing to trade, not everyone wants to trade etc etc. But that's your proposed solution, and that's fine.

55 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

the alternative you have offered does not adress the actual issue behind this at all. 

and im salty for pointing out the flaws in your argument? sorry, but just because an issue does not bother you does not mean it is not an issue. world does not revolve around you, unfortunately. 

Nor does yours as far as I'm concerned, but hey. Not like either of us actually make game changes, so it doesn't really matter.

And yes, salty. You called me a liar, you've just made a strawman, you ignore half of what I say and you repeatedly make fallacious statements. ''X is Y'' when actually you just consider X to be Y.

To be honest, I consider it cute. It's good to be passionate about things, I'm not sure being so passionate about slots in Warframe is particularly healthy though. But hey, you do you. 

(This thread is irrelevant anyway, it's not even in feedback. Don't take this so seriously, it's not like it's going to be read.)

Edited April 17, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Zeclem]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Genius.

''I don't need to''. As in, you're more than capable of working out why for yourself. Despite that I still backed up my claim rendering your comment moot.

theres literally nothing to do in game that does not include collecting things. and no, "killing" does require you to collect stuff cus yknow, one can get bored of it with just the starter equipment that has no mods.

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Can you back up your claim? I mean, you're attempting to crap all over me for apparently not backing up a claim, despite actually doing that, yet here you are making a claim you cannot back up. You have no numbers, no data, just a few threads somewhere on these forums that don't speak for the majority.

you mean the endless threads about it in the forums and the fact that people keep talking about "vets issues" everywhere is not proof enough for you? or the fact that there isnt as many people doing the new contents after a while it got released? oh and the infamous "content drought" stuff? or the other fact that majority of my friendlist who has everything also confirms this? which is anectodal, yes, but its not foolish to assume its not a common occurence given majority of the active playerbase are the players who did not obtain everything? and just looking at mastery ranks of people not being the highest mr required for a wep is enough of a proof that is been already mentioned in the thread.

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Unless this happens for every single person who players Warframe ever, then no, collecting shinies is not the only thing in the game.

cept it is, since theres legit literally nothing else to do in this game. you seriously cant deny grinding being the soul and body of this game.

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Rivens and Arcanes are irrelevant to the conversation since they don't require slots.

cept they are, since ive stated "game is about collecting" and you rejected that. and guess what you need to do to obtain those. yeah. farming.

Just now, DeMonkey said:

In your opinion. Just because you think this is the correct solution doesn't mean that mine is a bandaid.

its not my opinion. its even made into an idiom. "dont give a man a fish, teach him how to fish instead"

Just now, DeMonkey said:

For example if I was so inclined I'd call yours a bandaid, teaching players about trade chat wouldn't stop them from worrying about the lack of slots early on when they have nothing to trade, not everyone wants to trade etc etc. But that's your proposed solution, and that's fine.

and trading is the only thing that keeps the game playable for non paying players. you can consider it disfunctional, but those new players have to learn it. and even a single trade slot a day is enough for a single trade to get you your plat for the slots.

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Nor does yours as far as I'm concerned, but hey. Not like either of us actually make game changes, so it doesn't really matter.

so teaching people that they can earn plat for free through trading does not solve the issue of game looking p2w to new players? sound logic you got there.

Just now, DeMonkey said:

And yes, salty. You called me a liar, you've just made a strawman, you ignore half of what I say and you repeatedly make fallacious statements. ''X is Y'' when actually you just consider X to be Y.

i did not call you a liar tho, if you read more carefully. i just said that you trying to claim that slots arent necessity is ridicilous, and it is. and the exception is ive given facts and citations to my arguments yet you still did not give me one content in the game that does not include collecting something. 

Just now, DeMonkey said:

To be honest, I consider it cute. It's good to be passionate about things, I'm not sure being so passionate about slots in Warframe is particularly healthy though. But hey, you do you. 

keep your condensending tone to yourself. and it does not take a genius to see that whole thing im arguing is not a slots problem. slots arent a reason, they are a symptom caused by the lack of proper tutorials for new players. if you actually think im discussing here for just "slots", it just means you were not reading. so im just going to stop responding to you completely. i rather prefer having arguments/discussions with people who actually read what the other side is saying. 

 

[DeMonkey]

Last one, I promise.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

theres literally nothing to do in game that does not include collecting things. and no, "killing" does require you to collect stuff cus yknow, one can get bored of it with just the starter equipment that has no mods.

This discussion is about slots, in case you had forgotten.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

you mean the endless threads about it in the forums and the fact that people keep talking about "vets issues" everywhere is not proof enough for you? or the fact that there isnt as many people doing the new contents after a while it got released? oh and the infamous "content drought" stuff? or the other fact that majority of my friendlist who has everything also confirms this? which is anectodal, yes, but its not foolish to assume its not a common occurence given majority of the active playerbase are the players who did not obtain everything? and just looking at mastery ranks of people not being the highest mr required for a wep is enough of a proof that is been already mentioned in the thread.

Could have just said, ''No I can't actually back up my claim with any hard evidence'' instead of whatever this is.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

cept it is, since theres legit literally nothing else to do in this game. you seriously cant deny grinding being the soul and body of this game.

No words. ''Legit literally''.. please.

Never said it isn't the soul, just that it isn't the only thing in this game. And certainly grinding new weapons and frames (which is what the topic is about) is not the only thing in this game.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

cept they are, since ive stated "game is about collecting" and you rejected that. and guess what you need to do to obtain those. yeah. farming.

I've rejected that the game is solely about collecting Warframes and Weapons, you know, what the topic is about? Stop bringing up mods, rivens, kuva or whatever the heck else you're planning on mentioning that isn't a Warframe or Weapon slot.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

and trading is the only thing that keeps the game playable for non paying players. you can consider it disfunctional, but those new players have to learn it. and even a single trade slot a day is enough for a single trade to get you your plat for the slots.

''Nothing to trade'', not because they lack slots, but because they will have nothing of value. I'm sorry, but I absolutely do not see a new player between Mr2-3 having anything of value that they don't need themselves that they could sell for a slot.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

so teaching people that they can earn plat for free through trading does not solve the issue of game looking p2w to new players? sound logic you got there.

Yes? For all the previously mentioned reasons, not having anything spare worth trading, not actually wanting to delve into trading, not knowing or wanting to use warframe.market (because we all know how much people like complaining about necessary third party software like the wiki), not wanting to get bollocked at for not knowing the price of an item (because that happens) etc.

A new player that wants more slots and cannot viably trade will assume P2W, by the vein of logic of this thread. So yes, as far as I can see your solution solves absolutely nothing.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

i did not call you a liar tho, if you read more carefully. i just said that you trying to claim that slots arent necessity is ridicilous, and it is. and the exception is ive given facts and citations to my arguments yet you still did not give me one content in the game that does not include collecting something. 

Lies.

No, you haven't proved anything, anything at all. You keep confusing your opinion with fact. You keep confusing this thread with ''collecting'', when it's actually about ''collecting warframes and weapons''. 

And the most important lie of all, 

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

in a game about collecting new weapons and stuff, slots are absolutely necessary. dont lie to yourself.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

youre either lying or you enjoy pain.

Masochism in a video game is really not a thing, not even Dark Souls is enjoyable for ''enjoying pain'', it's about enjoying challenge, so in both instances you called me a liar. Now you're claiming you didn't.

14 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

keep your condensending tone to yourself. and it does not take a genius to see that whole thing im arguing is not a slots problem. slots arent a reason, they are a symptom caused by the lack of proper tutorials for new players. if you actually think im discussing here for just "slots", it just means you were not reading. so im just going to stop responding to you completely. i rather prefer having arguments/discussions with people who actually read what the other side is saying.

Keep your salty off topic arguments to yourself.

This thread is about Warframe and Weapon slots, arguing about them with me and suddenly claiming ''Oh I was talking about collecting in general all along'' is pathetic. You've literally just admitted that you weren't on topic for the argument, rendering your argument... pretty silly tbh.

I'd rather have discussions with people who actually stay on topic, don't lie, don't misconstrue my words and don't state their opinion as fact. But oh well.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

20 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I re-read it.

I still disagree. Slots are not required for winning. Slots are not required for playing the game. Deleting frames sucks, absolutely, but it's still a thing you can do to get that slot. There is nothing pay to win about the slots, no resemblance, no 'feel'.

Given the sheer number of things currently available, I could see the amount of starter slots increased, especially given there's... what, 9 total starter weapons? But outright removing the costs is not going to happen.

Technically you do not "need" to eat bread or tasty food or "need" your second kidney or that second leg. You can get through life perfectly fine without them...yet we still consider them pretty essential to enjoy life fully. 

The same, albeit less dramatic, with slots in this game. "Technically" you don't need them but we all know that in the confines of this game and with an eye on longevity and player retention and enjoying the full experience you actually do need them. Which is why preciously little players have only their starting slots as the game progresses. 

So saying you do not need them is an oversimplified cop out. 

That of course has the effect of creating a sense and feeling of limitations that need to be overcome by spending premium currency if you fully want to enjoy the game. This is of course the stage of the game where people generally do not know a thing about trading or have anything that can be traded yet...and are bombarded by plat prices and color customization limitations and the credit market being hidden behind an obscure inoccuous function. 

And that is the first impression new players have....everything beyond start set up costs plat. 

And technically that is not the definition of play to win. However...while we can get hung up on the semantics and spend a ton of energy in proving whether or not something is pay to win or pay to play...it serves to realize that for years and years these terms have been used interchangeably in common vernacular. 

Slots were an essential stream of revenue to keep the game alive in a period where the game needed every single cent and while the roster was limited. I seriously doubt that is still the case.

I see other people relying a lot on the argument of necessity of this stream of income and while that certainly used to be the case...at this moment in the games history it is rather curious that people want starter slots to remain limited when the direct result of that logic is that a whole lot of cosmetics won't be pruchased and limiting the starter slots logically also limits potential spending. 

It is also equally true that this game is not intended to be entirely free. It exists to make money...generate income for the companies staff and profit for the company itself. And no matter how much we argue that it is entirely free to play...this game will stop existing if literally nobody would spend plat. It is free to play for some people as long as others spend a lot of money on it and pay for the games continued development. 

And since we all like this game there should be a balance. 

All that said however means that while I very much disagree with some of your arguments I do fully agree with your proposed solution.

Removing the costs for all slots permanently does not seem to be a solution that takes every aspect into consideration...nor does it address all the issues of first impressions which do go beyond slots.

But expanding the amount of free slots so potential and starting players have more options to experiment and face less limitations and get a chance to at the very least start collecting things that can be traded is a very good start that maintains both the interests of DE and the f2p concept.

[DeMonkey]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

All that said however means that while I very much disagree with some of your arguments I do fully agree with your proposed solution.

That's fair.

The way I see it we could even have a solid 30 starter weapon slots and DE would still make plenty of money, we have what, over 300 weapons now? 30 weapon slots is still less than a tenth the total weapons, but is far less cumbersome for a newer player.

As for how much DE make from slots, on Steam alone we have... 40k players generally active? I forget the statistic. Ps4 will have it's thousands, as will Xbox and standalone pc. 

I'm sure not everyone will need a slot for her, some might just sell a frame they hate, but for the sake of discussion lets say there's 60,000 people who will need a slot for Khora across all platforms. That adds up to 1,200,000 plat removed from circulation. Just from Khora alone.

Weapons as well? I don't know. I feel that the community care less about collecting weapons than they do Warframes, so the amount they'll make from those slots is going to be variable. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by DeMonkey
Giant man thumbs on tiny keyboard

[SastusBulbas]

I played Beta, left in 2014, though the account and details seem lost to WF.

 

I never bought any founders packages, simply because I also did BFP4F, WoT, MWO, and was fed up with overpriced micro transactions.

 

This game is too expensive, plat way overpriced, and most kids, and new players find it too easy to overspend. Is that P2W, well kinda if the context is to ease a grind designed to push you towards spending money.

 

Forma, got more than I can craft, continually need it for dojo and characters and weapons. 

5 forma on a weapon but none left. 5 days to grind and all over forma requirements on hold? 

 

My son has played the last 3 or so years now, since it became available on xbox. I remember my partner having to have around £400 refunded due to his micro transactions, pretty shocking that a young lad could spend so much so easily on the xbox version due to it being linked to a bank account.

 

I used to run premium on WoT at around £12 for the month, well maybe less as I had accrued around 2 years and it only recently ran out.

But how much actual cash would it cost to run all 4 boosters for a year in WF? Too much at 800 plat for all four 30 day boosters.

 

Im enjoying the game, my son sells items for his plat these days, once I get a few more Baro items I too will start that.

 

But until then, I will be buying plat as I simply lack the time due to working so much.

 

And as such there is a pay to win element, paying for boosters, slots and forma does make a huge difference to progression, getting you more success in mission completions etc.

 

My only regret, not buying the founders pack back in beta, couldnt get into the game back then, now I never play WoT as I cant put Warframe down 😂

Edited April 18, 2018 by SastusBulbas

[tbagbandit]

thanks for the pay2win barro we got now, totally what i always wanted, spend money to use a basic feature or it f%@$s you every 2-3 weeks.

PS:  Ive spent over $60 on this game, im not spending cash to use a trader when he decides to land on the pay2win relay.

[LupisV0lk]

3 minutes ago, tbagbandit said:

thanks for the pay2win barro we got now, totally what i always wanted, spend money to use a basic feature or it f%@$s you every 2-3 weeks.

PS:  Ive spent over $60 on this game, im not spending cash to use a trader when he decides to land on the pay2win relay.

Show us on the doll where your stupidity has touched you.

[Rayden_Tenno]

WF is not even close to P2W. DE made a great, extraordinary job on this matter.

[Tricky5hift]

6 minutes ago, tbagbandit said:

thanks for the pay2win barro we got now, totally what i always wanted, spend money to use a basic feature or it f%@$s you every 2-3 weeks.

PS:  Ive spent over $60 on this game, im not spending cash to use a trader when he decides to land on the pay2win relay.

You revived a 2 month old thread just to complain about something literally 50 other threads are.

[(XBOX)OneNastyNupe]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

You revived a 2 month old thread just to complain about something literally 50 other threads are.

Lmao these people can't read and are pulling out all the stops to complain now

[SenariousNex]

It's not pay to win, but some kind of elaborate and grindy alternative to gaining slots would be nice. Ibelieve that everything in this game that is non-cosmetic needs to be acquired with both plat and in-game means. 

[rhoenix]

Goodness, I didn't know thread necromancy required salt.