Augment Slots?

[Trichouette]

il y a 1 minute, EinheriarJudith a dit :

a frame that can only fit the basic mods will do less than that same frame can do with using upgraded versions of those mods or the basic mods and their upgraded versions together. if there was no difference id agree but having the extra mod capacity increases power and build diversity.

I didn't say we don't need increased capacity from forma and etc, I just meant there could be more investment than increasing how many mods you can fit in your frame.

[Malice]

38 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

That's not why they removed that feature.

They removed syndicate mods affecting exalted weapons because they didn't want all players to be stuck using skana when playing a frame with an exalted weapon. (or that other weapon that has a +100% damage augment mod).

That was a glitch/bug.

That's stupid but simply because auras are stupid.

They decided to make THAT one boss invulnerable to auras because otherwise it would totally change the boss' gameplay and make operators useless (which they want to avoid at all cost)

That was ALSO a bug (or rather an oversight).

 

Any other example ? Ember nerf maybe ?

(just in case you dare to answer me with "ember nerf", they did that in order to prevent people being afk, which is funny since warframe is half an afk game)

Now I ain't trying to start an argument.
As mentioned prior. It was all under the radar until noticed.

Syndicate mods affecting exalted weapons caused players to be forced to use certain melee? The whole original point was that it added the syndicate effects for viral procs and health recovery with the enhancement of specific weapon mods Skana/DualCleavers, removing it because they wanted weapon diversity, was what you think truly made them change it?

Melee Stealth Damage Changes which affected Gas procs a bug? A bug that existed for so long? Until players could rack up 2 hour runs easily with Shadow Step? You think they "changed" it because it was a "bug"? Funny how the infamous partner-in-crime Shadow Step removal soon followed together with focus rework.

"That's stupid but simply because auras are stupid." It was removed because removal of shields were speeding up the fight as unintended making the hyped Eidolon seem like a pushover, not changing the playstyle, just excessively nerfing the hell out of the Eidolon's shields, but funny how other auras still do work, just not Shield Disruption, because.. Auras are stupid I guess?

Chroma's "nerf" was a fix due to the damage buff calculation registering damage being multiplicative incorrectly. "Back in April 2017, extreme damage boosting was not really a problem, so we left the ability as is. However, the Plains of Eidolon update marked a shift in community mindset by introducing Teralysts - featuring multiple large health pools on each weakpoint, damage boosting abilities became an important part of efficient hunting teams. While other damage boosting options require more team coordination, a single self-damaging Chroma could bypass the weakpoint damaging portion of the fight in an instant. At its simplest, we do not want our Eidolons one-shotted."

Ember nerf? Lol, it was "changed" with the " because they wanted frame abilities to be more "active" and "player-involved" as well as giving other players in the starchart a chance to participate instead of an Ember burning everything. Basically as long as you had to move or spam your keyboard, you'd be considered active. Similar to Banshee's Augment Resonating Quake. Pressing 4 once? That's outrageous. But spam 4? Hey, at least you're doing work. Press 4, but you have to get closer to enemies because WoF range reduces? Sounds good enough to be active. That's how it is. Not to prevent afking players lol.

TL;DR 

You mentioned "Look at what they did to limbo. Do you really think devs consider being OP as an issue?"
My answer? Yes I do. At a certain point and under certain circumstances they do. Most are under the radar/unnoticed until issues start arising from it.

If DE didn't consider OP being an issue, they would've just given and maintained constant buffs, and absolutely never ever nerf nor adjusted them.
And players wouldn't be constantly complaining about nerfs here and there.

I rest my case. Good luck.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Malice

[chainchompguy3]

1 minute ago, Trichouette said:

Not if you have plenty of augment available for each ability. That would rather increase build diversity.

If they were all competing enough with each other to all be worth it, maybe.

Each person could have different augments they'd prefer.

 

But ultimately, they'd all have an augment.

And in reality, most of the time, one augment will be declared "The best", and become meta.

In a normal slot, I can have anything from Vitality to handspring to Warm coat.

There is a huge variety of choices, each with varying usability depending on your own personal playstyle.

 

Meanwhile, imagine that Inaros had 3 augments for his Pocket sand.

One caused a damaging explosion upon headshotting an affected enemy.

One caused Health leach effect to scale up dramatically.

One caused it to have a time-stop effect as well.

 

Inaros players almost always use Pocket-sand to open enemies to finishers, and to CC. That's what it was designed to do, that's what it is used for.

So augments that don't further this are very unlikely to actually be used.

Suddenly, only the last one, Time-stop, gets used. Because it furthers CC.

(Obviously, these augments are rather off from what might actually be added. I'm just trying to make the point that augments that don't further the goal of the ability aren't going to be used, and thus variety likely won't be as varied as one would think)

 

10 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Is that bad ?

We're already OP, having a slot to increase some aspect of an ability makes us more OP, but it also mean people can start using different ability for fun instead of spamming "that one ability that clear the map".

It's not like anyone care about balance anyway.

 

I used to have the same opinion as you, back when augment were released I thought "it's added power, it needs to take a mod slot".

Now I just think it could be a way to improve your investment in your frame.

Please read the rest of my spoiler.

[Malice]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and opinions, this is just a general open discussion so please don't take things to heart. Each of us have our own opinions and thoughts on this subject and either side provides enough and plausible reasons as to why they want or do not want the augment slot to be implemented. Either way, feel free to let your thoughts out on this subject, but I sure hope it doesn't turn ugly.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

With the new arcane slots, having dedicated augment slots feels moot. I wish they would consider fixing the AUX slots, most of the mods seem pointless or repeative.

Like i thought the AUX slot was to highlight more survivability mods (running, jumping, etc) but they have become extensions of warframe power increases.

[chainchompguy3]

5 minutes ago, Malice said:

Thank you everyone for your feedback and opinions, this is just a general open discussion so please don't take things to heart. Each of us have our own opinions and thoughts on this subject and either side provides enough and plausible reasons as to why they want or do not want the augment slot to be implemented. Either way, feel free to let your thoughts out on this subject, but I sure hope it doesn't turn ugly.

It's just a bit of a heated topic, because:

A. It's been done-to-death for some of us, having to repeat ourselves over and over.

B. Each side sees their view as "just kind of obvious", and as a result has to actively try to not condescend to the other side.

C. Everyone is actually kind of talking at cross causes: At least as far as I've seen, there are a lot of differing views of what Warframe should be. Different versions of warframe may or may not support Augments slots.

 

I appreciate your attempts to keep the discussion civil, but we're handling fine china here.

[Trichouette]

il y a 48 minutes, Malice a dit :

was what you think truly made them change it?

That's not "what I think", it's "what they said".

When most players of excalibur are using cleaver/skana for the +100% dmg mod, it seems plausible.

il y a 48 minutes, Malice a dit :

Melee Stealth Damage Changes which affected Gas procs a bug? A bug that existed for so long? Until players could rack up 2 hour runs easily with Shadow Step? You think they "changed" it because it was a "bug"? Funny how the infamous partner-in-crime Shadow Step removal soon followed together with focus rework.

You think players needed gas proc to run infinite survival..?

And you know, coptering and multishot are also classified as "bug" if you listen to DE.

Shadow step was removed because invisibility is way too powerful anyway. Something should've been done to the mechanic instead of straight removing that passive.

il y a 48 minutes, Malice a dit :

Chroma's "nerf" was a fix due to the damage buff calculation registering damage being multiplicative incorrectly.

That's what I said.

il y a 48 minutes, Malice a dit :

but funny how other auras still do work, just not Shield Disruption, because.. Auras are stupid I guess?

As I said, DE doesn't want operators to be useless during that fight, they can't make that aura work.

(and don't tell me aura aren't stupid, most players run shield disrupt / corrosive projection because these are broken // because armor is broken)

il y a 48 minutes, Malice a dit :

That's how it is. Not to prevent afking players lol.

"more player involved" sounds pretty much like "preventing afk"...

And yeah banshee's design is quite stupid but oh well.

il y a 48 minutes, Malice a dit :

If DE didn't consider OP being an issue, they would've just given and maintained constant buffs, and absolutely never ever nerf nor adjusted them.
And players wouldn't be constantly complaining about nerfs here and there.

They don't care about stuff being OP, they care about stuff being too efficient.

They just don't want players to do almost nothing and wipe out the map. (like good old telos boltace or simulor)

Which is probably why limbo isn't nerfed yet... While CC-ing the whole map is insane, it doesn't really harm the enemies.

And also why gara's shield hasn't been nerfed even though you can instakill anything in the game with it as long as you stacked it enough.

il y a 43 minutes, chainchompguy3 a dit :

And in reality, most of the time, one augment will be declared "The best", and become meta.

That's what happens when there is no balance whatsoever... I agree it's hard to create a lot of choice without one being straight better than the others, but hey it's still possible.

(but not really feasible in warframe where everything is broken as soon as a few mods are added)

il y a 43 minutes, chainchompguy3 a dit :

Inaros players almost always use Pocket-sand to open enemies to finishers, and to CC. That's what it was designed to do, that's what it is used for.

So augments that don't further this are very unlikely to actually be used.

Or they could be used in order to turn inaros' 1 into something else than that and create a new gameplay around the ability.

(spamming 1 > finisher becomes boring pretty quickly in my opinion)

il y a 29 minutes, (XB1)Nightseid a dit :

With the new arcane slots, having dedicated augment slots feels moot. I wish they would consider fixing the AUX slots, most of the mods seem pointless or repeative.

Like i thought the AUX slot was to highlight more survivability mods (running, jumping, etc) but they have become extensions of warframe power increases.

You mean exilus ? Yeah it was supposed to be a "support mod slot" and instead it runs power drift most of the time (or the other one for added range)...

Meanwhile many players still hope that natural talent one day becomes exilus

il y a 22 minutes, chainchompguy3 a dit :

B. Each side sees their view as "just kind of obvious", and as a result has to actively try to not condescend to the other side.

I support my idea but I know there is no way it will ever be added into the game.

I just thought it'd be nice to argue about something for once and see how others think :D

(but yeah I have to read again some of my stuff just in case...)

Edited April 13, 2018 by Trichouette

[peterc3]

2 hours ago, Malice said:

In the recent Mesa's Waltz, the augment could be placed in the exilus slot which was different compared to past augments.

Ignoring Hysterical Assault and Escape Velocity.

Why do people who make builds using an Augment or several Augments need access to them while maintaining every other stat?

[Trichouette]

il y a 6 minutes, peterc3 a dit :

Why do people who make builds using an Augment or several Augments need access to them while maintaining every other stat?

Because why not ?

As I said, I see that as a way to further improve my frame and personalize it.

Now if only more were available :p

It wouldn't be such an issue if we didn't need to over-buff our stats in order to make abilities useful.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Trichouette

[peterc3]

8 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Because why not ?

As I said, I see that as a way to further improve my frame and personalize it.

Now if only more were available :p

It wouldn't be such an issue if we didn't need to over-buff our stats in order to make abilities useful.

Then your argument is to remove any restrictions on slots and capacity, which is a poor way to have the conversation with devs trying to make a game and not an idle clicker.

Why have any restrictions, if this is your response?

Plenty of abilities don't need "over" buffed stats.

[Trichouette]

il y a 5 minutes, peterc3 a dit :

Then your argument is to remove any restrictions on slots and capacity, which is a poor way to have the conversation with devs trying to make a game and not an idle clicker.

And again the typical "it's all white or all dark".

I'm not saying there should be no restriction, but having some slots ONLY for augments while having plenty of augment mods available to use in these slots could be another way to make your build unique and maybe change the gameplay of the initial frame.

il y a 5 minutes, peterc3 a dit :

Plenty of abilities don't need "over" buffed stats.

And plenty of abilities are garbage if you don't have enough stats or can't be efficient at a certain point if they aren't spammed.

il y a 5 minutes, peterc3 a dit :

which is a poor way to have the conversation with devs trying to make a game and not an idle clicker.

Wait... Warframe isn't an idle game ? Sorry I thought that was the case, especially when I see all these enemies dying or being CC-ed to death from a single key press.

The game really lack gameplay when your optimize your loadout and/or abuse certain abilities.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Trichouette

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

And plenty of abilities are garbage if you don't have enough stats or can't be efficient at a certain point if they aren't spammed.

this has nothing to do with the abilities but everything to do with enemy scaling. damage falloff is a thing.

Edited April 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Trichouette]

il y a 3 minutes, EinheriarJudith a dit :

this has nothing to do with the abilities but everything to do with enemy scaling. damage falloff is a thing.

For power strength yes, but what about duration and range ?

Look at poor trinity and her 12 second link (while nidus has a 60 sec link...), that's just an example but there are plenty of abilities that aren't that great if you don't max out duration/range. (or even efficiency in order to spam it)

Edited April 13, 2018 by Trichouette

[EinheriarJudith]

4 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

For power strength yes, but what about duration and range ?

Look at poor trinity and her poor 12 second link (while nidus has a 60 sec link...), that's just an example but there are plenty of abilities that aren't that great if you don't max out duration/range. (or even efficiency in order to spam it)

trinity's link does more than give her DR. it is also damage redirection. its alot cheaper than nidus link as well. something that powerful doesnt need a long duration especially since she has bless.

Edited April 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Trichouette]

il y a 1 minute, EinheriarJudith a dit :

trinity's link does more than give her DR. it is also damage redirection. its alot cheaper than nidus link as well. something that powerful doesnt need a long duration especially since she has bless.

A lot cheaper ? What do you mean ? Nidus' link requires 1 stack and that's it. And it gives way more damage reduction (and also damage redirection but to only one target).

She still has to re-cast it pretty often and I don't see anyone using link without maxing duration (and oh god that awful casting animation........)

[EinheriarJudith]

5 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

A lot cheaper ? What do you mean ? Nidus' link requires 1 stack and that's it. And it gives way more damage reduction (and also damage redirection but to only one target).

She still has to re-cast it pretty often and I don't see anyone using link without maxing duration (and oh god that awful casting animation........)

you are aware that you need to spam virulence to get stacks right? trin just presses 3 boom link. nidus has to spam 1 until he gets a stack to use for PLink. each time you use a stack your power goes down. trinity does not have this problem with link she can just recast it and energy obviously is no issue.

Edited April 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Trichouette]

il y a 6 minutes, EinheriarJudith a dit :

you are aware that you need to spam virulence to get stacks right? trin just presses 3 boom link. nidus has to spam 1 until he gets a stack to use for PLink. each time you use a stack your power goes down. trinity does not have this problem with link she can just recast it and energy obviously is no issue.

I have no idea how you're playing nidus but if getting stacks is your issue, you're doing something wrong...

Whenever I press 2>1 while my 4 is up, I get around 5 stacks.

And nidus' energy isn't an issue either.

 

Anyway that was just an example.

My point being, there are plenty of abilities you wouldn't use without one stat maxed (other example, vauban's bastille/vortex, equinox' maim etc...)

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

I have no idea how you're playing nidus but if getting stacks is your issue, you're doing something wrong...

Whenever I press 2>1 while my 4 is up, I get around 5 stacks.

And nidus' energy isn't an issue either.

 

Anyway that was just an example.

My point being, there are plenty of abilities you wouldn't use without one stat maxed (other example, vauban's bastille/vortex, equinox' maim etc...)

gettings stacks is an issue? i said trinity's link is cheaper, and it is. one press of 3 and i have link up. id like to see you do that from one press of nidus 3 oh wait... you have to use virulence to get stacks.

[--Chubbs--]

I would say that we should be allowed to put augments in the exilus slot

[Doomsknightmare]

That would be amazing since most augment mods are not so practical, but just fun to use.

[Urlan]

On 4/13/2018 at 3:20 PM, Trichouette said:

And again the typical "it's all white or all dark".

I'm not saying there should be no restriction, but having some slots ONLY for augments while having plenty of augment mods available to use in these slots could be another way to make your build unique and maybe change the gameplay of the initial frame.

And plenty of abilities are garbage if you don't have enough stats or can't be efficient at a certain point if they aren't spammed.

Wait... Warframe isn't an idle game ? Sorry I thought that was the case, especially when I see all these enemies dying or being CC-ed to death from a single key press.

The game really lack gameplay when your optimize your loadout and/or abuse certain abilities.

Strongly agree that such an augment slot with additional augment mod options would option up more build variety. I do wonder though if there is room now though with Arcanes essentially being made into special mods and added to the mod slots real estate.

[MarcusGraves]

I'm of the opinion that the augment system is outdated and needs to be overhauled+rebalanced with very certain augments becoming baseline already.

System really should be you get your augment like usual through syndicate or getting it from someone in trade, then you go to your abilities screen and have the option of turning the augment on/off for that power. The catch is you only get to have one augment on for a build, ONE that's it, before someone comes in and tells me "wuh why stop at one?", ONE that's all you get.

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, MarcusGraves said:

The catch is you only get to have one augment on for a build, ONE that's it, before someone comes in and tells me "wuh why stop at one?", ONE that's all you get.

You didn't give any reason for having access to only one augment. And really, that idea is a horrible one. Several of my builds run 2 augments for specific reasons:

• My Volt usually has Capacitance for survivability and one of Shocking Speed or Trasistor Shield, depending on whether I'm playing melee or sniper.
• My Nekros uses Shield of Shadows and Despoil to increase his tankiness with two sources (the latter via Health Conversion)
• My melee Nova (odd but fun) uses Escape Velocity and Neutron Star to better facilitate close-range gameplay on an otherwise squishy frame.
• One of my Banshee builds uses Resonance and Sonic Fracture to put the hurt on high-level Armored targets.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

It's tricky.  Base mods are very important and highly impact frames and their performance.  Augments are kind of supposed to be like a nice touch to a specific play style  Which.  Can be compared to the exalus slot.  If I understand the role of that slot is to mainly to fill for mobility sake.  But also some bottom line power things that basically do one thing and don't have a huge impact.  Meas's was added because it didn't add any meaningful power.  Only thing she gains from this is movement in her 4.  Which in it of itself isn't life changing.  compared to say nyx's 4's augment where it also only gives movement.  But it indirectly gives her the ability to do other things.  Like use her other abilities and kill with her weapons.  Hence why it's not an exalus mod.

I think by adding another slot for augments we'd be going down a slippery road.  We'd try to make justifications for other slots.  like for the pecular mods.  Or for rivens.  Or maybe even suggestions like baking in standard mods as upgrades to the frame leaving room to be survivable and have all your great powers.  Which I think would just turn into having a new way to upgrade frames.  Something similar to focus schools structure.

Modding is at the very core of this game.  And by continually opening space for things like this we continue to shape the game at it's core.  I personally don't think augments need their own slots.  The current system allows you to nearly tweak your build to perfection as is even when an augment is considered.  If you add a slot for augments you take away choice making in builds.  Which imo is bad.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, MarcusGraves said:

I'm of the opinion that the augment system is outdated and needs to be overhauled+rebalanced with very certain augments becoming baseline already.

System really should be you get your augment like usual through syndicate or getting it from someone in trade, then you go to your abilities screen and have the option of turning the augment on/off for that power. The catch is you only get to have one augment on for a build, ONE that's it, before someone comes in and tells me "wuh why stop at one?", ONE that's all you get.

If an ability is believed to need an augment to function the ability is in need of changing.  Not giving a free augment.  And you didn't give a reason.  I can only assume that your "balance" for a free augment slot is to limit it to one per frame.  Which is just lazy balancing.  and it kills build diversity for the sake of you not willing to forma up and get the proper mods for the ideal build you want.

Aguments are usually a direct buff to the ability.  Or a change to it's function which can be an indirect buff to the ability itself or the frames performance as a whole.  Modding is about making choices.  If you're not comfortable with giving up survivability mods (as an example) to have the power you wish to have via an augment you've chosen that survival is more important.  You don't deserve to have both the power and the survival.  That takes away from the whole point of the balance that is modding.